Boost Control Installation
05-27-06, 12:25 AM
#1
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Boost Control Installation
I have been looking at the various threads and web-sites describing how to install a boost controller and it looks like there are 2 different methods.
The Greddy Profec instructions say to insert the solenoid valve/boost controller in between the Wastegate Actuator and the turbo outlet nipple, leaving the line to the pre-control actuator alone.
The Apex'i AVC-R instructions say to connect the solenoid to both the wastegate actuator and the pre-control actuator.
I assume both boost controllers function basically the same way, so I am not sure why the instructions would be different. Which is correct? Are there pros and cons to each method?
Thanks,
J
The Greddy Profec instructions say to insert the solenoid valve/boost controller in between the Wastegate Actuator and the turbo outlet nipple, leaving the line to the pre-control actuator alone.
The Apex'i AVC-R instructions say to connect the solenoid to both the wastegate actuator and the pre-control actuator.
I assume both boost controllers function basically the same way, so I am not sure why the instructions would be different. Which is correct? Are there pros and cons to each method?
Thanks,
J
05-27-06, 01:03 AM
#2
Plumbing in your PCA with raise your primary and transition boost to your boost controller's settings.
assuming your peak boost is set to 12psi it would look something like
12-10-12
Leaving it alone will result in a stock boost pattern from 0-4500rpms
assuming you set your peak boost to 12psi it would look something like
10-8-12
assuming your peak boost is set to 12psi it would look something like
12-10-12
Leaving it alone will result in a stock boost pattern from 0-4500rpms
assuming you set your peak boost to 12psi it would look something like
10-8-12
05-27-06, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Barban
Plumbing in your PCA with raise your primary and transition boost to your boost controller's settings.
assuming your peak boost is set to 12psi it would look something like
12-10-12
Leaving it alone will result in a stock boost pattern from 0-4500rpms
assuming you set your peak boost to 12psi it would look something like
10-8-12
assuming your peak boost is set to 12psi it would look something like
12-10-12
Leaving it alone will result in a stock boost pattern from 0-4500rpms
assuming you set your peak boost to 12psi it would look something like
10-8-12
The Greddy is a single solenoid setup and is designed to control the wastegate line only. You will get whatever boost you set it to on both the primary and secondary. The AVC-R is a dual solenoid setup and, apparently, is designed to control both the PCA and wastegate lines independently.
The AVC-R costs twice as much and is a lot harder to set up correctly. A lot of people have reported problems with spiking and poor transition control with the AVC-R.
05-27-06, 12:00 PM
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Rynberg,
I don't think that's quite correct either.
The AVC-R uses a dual solenoid design in the solenoid box, but in the end, both actuators are T'ed together and plugged into the same port on the solenoid box.
It's basically "version 2" of installing a boost controller that keeps floating around.
The dual solenoid setup is used to increase the response if I remember correctly from APEXi's description.
The reason the "Version 2" configuration works with that controller is that it can control the duty cycles based on RPM.
I don't think that's quite correct either.
The AVC-R uses a dual solenoid design in the solenoid box, but in the end, both actuators are T'ed together and plugged into the same port on the solenoid box.
It's basically "version 2" of installing a boost controller that keeps floating around.
The dual solenoid setup is used to increase the response if I remember correctly from APEXi's description.
The reason the "Version 2" configuration works with that controller is that it can control the duty cycles based on RPM.
05-27-06, 12:27 PM
#6
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
wow! how apropos!
I have recently been playing around with this. For auto-x, I wanted a little more "oomph" down low. I have always remembered the difference posted on "version 1" and "2".
I even remember daleclark or was it howard coleman who stated they installed their EBC with version "2" as well as in other people's car.
Also, this appears to have been a debate even back to the big list days as documented on scuderia's site:
http://www.fd3s.net/profec_install.html
I have been running "version 1" since the rebuild and just today switched to "version 2". With the same settings on my Profec B, I do almost get near big boost on demand above 2500rpm.
I didn't experience any violent transition nor boost spike.
Perhaps the reason why this works is our precontrol solenoid is no-longer up to spec and we replace it with a faster, newer solenoid with the EBC? None the less, it seems to have been a debate for ages. If you don't mind tearing out your airbox to try the different settings, just try "version 1" first, log your boost settings. Let the car cool and switch to "version 2".
I have recently been playing around with this. For auto-x, I wanted a little more "oomph" down low. I have always remembered the difference posted on "version 1" and "2".
I even remember daleclark or was it howard coleman who stated they installed their EBC with version "2" as well as in other people's car.
Also, this appears to have been a debate even back to the big list days as documented on scuderia's site:
http://www.fd3s.net/profec_install.html
From: richardt@lava.net (Richard H Thomason)
Ahaa! The great wastegate//pre-control actuator debate springs to life yet again...
I continue to posit that the only way to get big boost (ie 14/15 lbs) out of both primary and twin turbos operation with a Profec B is by regulating both the "Wastegate" and the Pre-control Actuators. If you just run the controller to the wastegate actuator, you will end up with moderate boost on the first turbo (10 lbs sustained if your lucky, depending on back pressure), perfect transition prespool, moderate boost spike and your expected big boost only after the second turbo comes on line.
If you run the Profec to both actuators, you will get near instant big boost on the primary turbo on demand at any rpm above 2,500, but will experience a more violent transition and perhaps higher spiking when the second turbo activates.
The Pre-control Actuator regulates primary turbo boost until about 4000 rpm (if you don't believe me try adjusting your pre-controller actuator rod). The amount of boost generated by the primary turbo is regulated by whatever signal is sent to the Turbo Pre-control Solenoid by either the ECU or your controller of choice. It has been said on this list that the pre-control actuator (PCA) is simply a device which opens at a preset rpm to spool the second turbo. This is not all it does. The PCA is in fact regulating boost the entire time up till near the transition point, and though it does indeed accomplish this regulation via venting excess exhaust energy to the secondary turbo to prespool it, saying that is all it does is not giving it full credit. Keep in mind that during this time, the Wastegate Actuator is functionally inoperative- all boost generated by the secondary turbo is being routed not to the intake tract but to the atmosphere via the Charge Relief Valve during this period. Simply put, there is no way that the Wastegate Actuator is regulating boost to the primary turbo before twin turbo operation, all boost is being regulated by the PCA. At the point of full twin turbo operation the PCA is switched fully open and all boost is then managed by the Wastegate Actuator.
Based upon all the above, I continue to believe that if you want to run higher than "stock" (which depends on back pressure) boost on your primary turbo you need to have your Profec control the PCA and that you cannot do this by tapping into only the "wastegate" side of the system.
Hopefully, Brooks was actually asking this question. If not, well, let the debate rage once again anyway.
Ahaa! The great wastegate//pre-control actuator debate springs to life yet again...
I continue to posit that the only way to get big boost (ie 14/15 lbs) out of both primary and twin turbos operation with a Profec B is by regulating both the "Wastegate" and the Pre-control Actuators. If you just run the controller to the wastegate actuator, you will end up with moderate boost on the first turbo (10 lbs sustained if your lucky, depending on back pressure), perfect transition prespool, moderate boost spike and your expected big boost only after the second turbo comes on line.
If you run the Profec to both actuators, you will get near instant big boost on the primary turbo on demand at any rpm above 2,500, but will experience a more violent transition and perhaps higher spiking when the second turbo activates.
The Pre-control Actuator regulates primary turbo boost until about 4000 rpm (if you don't believe me try adjusting your pre-controller actuator rod). The amount of boost generated by the primary turbo is regulated by whatever signal is sent to the Turbo Pre-control Solenoid by either the ECU or your controller of choice. It has been said on this list that the pre-control actuator (PCA) is simply a device which opens at a preset rpm to spool the second turbo. This is not all it does. The PCA is in fact regulating boost the entire time up till near the transition point, and though it does indeed accomplish this regulation via venting excess exhaust energy to the secondary turbo to prespool it, saying that is all it does is not giving it full credit. Keep in mind that during this time, the Wastegate Actuator is functionally inoperative- all boost generated by the secondary turbo is being routed not to the intake tract but to the atmosphere via the Charge Relief Valve during this period. Simply put, there is no way that the Wastegate Actuator is regulating boost to the primary turbo before twin turbo operation, all boost is being regulated by the PCA. At the point of full twin turbo operation the PCA is switched fully open and all boost is then managed by the Wastegate Actuator.
Based upon all the above, I continue to believe that if you want to run higher than "stock" (which depends on back pressure) boost on your primary turbo you need to have your Profec control the PCA and that you cannot do this by tapping into only the "wastegate" side of the system.
Hopefully, Brooks was actually asking this question. If not, well, let the debate rage once again anyway.
I have been running "version 1" since the rebuild and just today switched to "version 2". With the same settings on my Profec B, I do almost get near big boost on demand above 2500rpm.
I didn't experience any violent transition nor boost spike.
Perhaps the reason why this works is our precontrol solenoid is no-longer up to spec and we replace it with a faster, newer solenoid with the EBC? None the less, it seems to have been a debate for ages. If you don't mind tearing out your airbox to try the different settings, just try "version 1" first, log your boost settings. Let the car cool and switch to "version 2".
Last edited by 7racer; 05-27-06 at 12:29 PM.
05-27-06, 02:24 PM
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Well, I apologize for being a dumbass by posting inaccurate data in a post that I pointed out someone else's mistake. 
In any case, I have NEVER had an issue with the primary turbo making boost with the Profec B using "Version 1". I make a full 15 psi by 3000 rpm with the BNRs on the primary....when the secondary kicks on, it goes to 15 psi and stays there. The only issue I've ever had with the Profec is a larger dip at transition than there should be -- my boost pattern is more like 15-11-15. The transition occurs so quickly though that it doesn't feel nearly as bad as would think by the numbers.
This has got me curious enough to try out "Version 2" now. I'll report back with my findings.
In any case, I have NEVER had an issue with the primary turbo making boost with the Profec B using "Version 1". I make a full 15 psi by 3000 rpm with the BNRs on the primary....when the secondary kicks on, it goes to 15 psi and stays there. The only issue I've ever had with the Profec is a larger dip at transition than there should be -- my boost pattern is more like 15-11-15. The transition occurs so quickly though that it doesn't feel nearly as bad as would think by the numbers.
This has got me curious enough to try out "Version 2" now. I'll report back with my findings.
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05-27-06, 02:26 PM
#8
When you did version two, i know you cap off both ends of the wastegate and pca. How did you plug the lines on the solinoids that are by the UIM. Did you disconnect the solinoids or just cap off the vacuum lines that you disconnected from the wastegate and pca?
05-27-06, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by purerx7
When you did version two, i know you cap off both ends of the wastegate and pca. How did you plug the lines on the solinoids that are by the UIM. Did you disconnect the solinoids or just cap off the vacuum lines that you disconnected from the wastegate and pca?
05-27-06, 02:56 PM
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just to trow my question in, what you do with the injector automization line ?, i have my line connected with the boost control solenoid, today in the tuning they told me is leaking and i should take it out and cap it, is that nesesary or what to do with it cap it, hook it up some place else, i think this question is related to the subject also, thanks
05-27-06, 09:10 PM
#14
Soooooo. Ive got my little thread up there on the profec S and I was wondering what the detriments of plumbing the PCA in with my WG are going to be.
On one site I saw it said that primary boost was controlled by the PCA and then post transition boost was handled by the wastegate. Some of the information here has made me wonder what exactly the PCA does.
Im currenlty showing plumbing both the WG and PCA in with the bost controller and would prefer not to lead innocent men astray if this is detrimental and dont really want to recommend things I dont understand anyways.
On one site I saw it said that primary boost was controlled by the PCA and then post transition boost was handled by the wastegate. Some of the information here has made me wonder what exactly the PCA does.
Im currenlty showing plumbing both the WG and PCA in with the bost controller and would prefer not to lead innocent men astray if this is detrimental and dont really want to recommend things I dont understand anyways.
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05-28-06, 01:37 AM
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turBRO [ArTiN],
that has got to rank up amongst the most ignorant comments made lately. And there have been quite a few...
AVC-R = Boost controller
PowerFC = Engine Management Unit
The two are completely different components. Further, the PowerFC does not handle boost control much better than the stock ECU.
The AVC-R is a very good controller to use on a RX-7, albeit a bit harder to set up and tune. But given it's flexibility and the demands posed on a boost controller by the sequential system it's certainly one of the top controllers to use for maximum control.
that has got to rank up amongst the most ignorant comments made lately. And there have been quite a few...
AVC-R = Boost controller
PowerFC = Engine Management Unit
The two are completely different components. Further, the PowerFC does not handle boost control much better than the stock ECU.
The AVC-R is a very good controller to use on a RX-7, albeit a bit harder to set up and tune. But given it's flexibility and the demands posed on a boost controller by the sequential system it's certainly one of the top controllers to use for maximum control.
05-28-06, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Ibumar
turBRO [ArTiN],
that has got to rank up amongst the most ignorant comments made lately. And there have been quite a few...
AVC-R = Boost controller
PowerFC = Engine Management Unit
The two are completely different components. Further, the PowerFC does not handle boost control much better than the stock ECU.
The AVC-R is a very good controller to use on a RX-7, albeit a bit harder to set up and tune. But given it's flexibility and the demands posed on a boost controller by the sequential system it's certainly one of the top controllers to use for maximum control.
that has got to rank up amongst the most ignorant comments made lately. And there have been quite a few...
AVC-R = Boost controller
PowerFC = Engine Management Unit
The two are completely different components. Further, the PowerFC does not handle boost control much better than the stock ECU.
The AVC-R is a very good controller to use on a RX-7, albeit a bit harder to set up and tune. But given it's flexibility and the demands posed on a boost controller by the sequential system it's certainly one of the top controllers to use for maximum control.
05-28-06, 10:16 AM
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The PFC/stock solenoid is not fast enough for some set-ups. I have the 99 spec turbos on my car and the PFC causes the boost to oscillate under full throttle. You can adjust the duty cycle to minimize the oscillation, but the bottom line is that it can't react quickly enough to keep the boost steady.
My other FD has stock turbos and the PFC seems to control the boost reasonably well. There is still a minor oscillation, but it is so minor that you wouldn't know it unless you put the car on a dyno.
I went out and bought a Profec B Spec II yesterday. I am probably going to install it this weekend. It sounds like Option 1 is the way to go with the Profec. I guess with the AVC-R it might make sense to go with option 2, since it can control boost based on RPM and gear. I am just trying to keep the boost steady at 12 lbs, so I don't think I need to get too sophisticated.
So, anyone have any tips/warnings on how to dial in the boost on the Greddy?
- Jim
My other FD has stock turbos and the PFC seems to control the boost reasonably well. There is still a minor oscillation, but it is so minor that you wouldn't know it unless you put the car on a dyno.
I went out and bought a Profec B Spec II yesterday. I am probably going to install it this weekend. It sounds like Option 1 is the way to go with the Profec. I guess with the AVC-R it might make sense to go with option 2, since it can control boost based on RPM and gear. I am just trying to keep the boost steady at 12 lbs, so I don't think I need to get too sophisticated.
So, anyone have any tips/warnings on how to dial in the boost on the Greddy?
- Jim
05-28-06, 12:17 PM
#19
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Brick,
that's interesting that you say that. I also have the 99 spec and PFC. When the Profec B was hooked up incorrectly I was only using the PFC to control the boost (up to 14psi). Steve Kan was tuning and the boost held steady no oscillations.
I hooked the Profec up correctly (version 1) and it seemed to control the boost better (quicker response).
I since switched to version 2 and now the boost seems to come on quicker (though I never had a problem hitting full boost with version 1) and still a sustained boost.
I regards to tuning the profec, its easy, just search and read the manual. I did it by myself on an large open stretch of highway.
**I think it was Daleclark who likes version 2. I'm going to drop him a pm to see if he will comment.
that's interesting that you say that. I also have the 99 spec and PFC. When the Profec B was hooked up incorrectly I was only using the PFC to control the boost (up to 14psi). Steve Kan was tuning and the boost held steady no oscillations.
I hooked the Profec up correctly (version 1) and it seemed to control the boost better (quicker response).
I since switched to version 2 and now the boost seems to come on quicker (though I never had a problem hitting full boost with version 1) and still a sustained boost.
I regards to tuning the profec, its easy, just search and read the manual. I did it by myself on an large open stretch of highway.
**I think it was Daleclark who likes version 2. I'm going to drop him a pm to see if he will comment.
05-28-06, 05:32 PM
#20
RX-7 Bad Ass
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I still have yet to get a true boost controller for my car, so I still haven't personally dabbled with boost control setups and plumbing on my own car. I did recently install a Profec B for a friend using Ver.2, and he reported the car is doing just fine with it. I haven't been in the car since the install, so I don't know personally what it's doing.
Anyhow, I'd like to cover a few points.
First off, the stock boost control is bobo. The two solenoids NEED the pills in the wastegate line to work properly. Take the pills out, and even with the solenoids maxed out you'll get very low boost. IMHO, having to screw with pill sizes is not boost control - it's just goofy. I can understand why the factory did it, but that doesn't mean it's the best route for a modified car.
With my PowerFC currently controlling the stock boost control setup, and with intake/downpipe/HF cat/cat-back, I was getting boost that was a little too hot on the primary turbo. Since I'm not financially ready to get a boost controller as of yet, I drilled out the primary pill a sixteenth and have control again. The primary turbo is now rather uninteresting, but it's safe.
At the end of the day, the precontrol actuator is the secondary turbo's wastegate - it bleeds off exhaust pressure from behind the turbine. I can understand both sides of the coin with the Ver1 and Ver2 setups, but IMHO the Ver2 setup has a lot more appeal since I ditch the factory solenoid/pill setup.
An advanced boost controller like the AVC-R is a good match since you can fine-tune boost by RPM. If you're getting spiking, you can dial it out. Problem is the AVC-R is not that simple to use and takes time to properly set up, which many don't allow for. Heck, many people have problems with a Profec B
.
One thing I would really like to experiment with is getting better control of the twins, maybe even controlling the turbo control and charge control solenoids. I think there's still quite a bit of unexplored territory when it comes to the sequential control system, and I think optimizing the system can net maximum power under the curve.
Trust me, when the time comes that I get a boost controller, I'll be doing a LOT of work and testing. This is one area that's greatly misunderstood - heck, there's a post every day on "how do I install my new boost controller" or "how do I set up my new boost controller". This is one area that sorely needs better documentation, especially with noob-friendly pictures.
Dale
Anyhow, I'd like to cover a few points.
First off, the stock boost control is bobo. The two solenoids NEED the pills in the wastegate line to work properly. Take the pills out, and even with the solenoids maxed out you'll get very low boost. IMHO, having to screw with pill sizes is not boost control - it's just goofy. I can understand why the factory did it, but that doesn't mean it's the best route for a modified car.
With my PowerFC currently controlling the stock boost control setup, and with intake/downpipe/HF cat/cat-back, I was getting boost that was a little too hot on the primary turbo. Since I'm not financially ready to get a boost controller as of yet, I drilled out the primary pill a sixteenth and have control again. The primary turbo is now rather uninteresting, but it's safe.
At the end of the day, the precontrol actuator is the secondary turbo's wastegate - it bleeds off exhaust pressure from behind the turbine. I can understand both sides of the coin with the Ver1 and Ver2 setups, but IMHO the Ver2 setup has a lot more appeal since I ditch the factory solenoid/pill setup.
An advanced boost controller like the AVC-R is a good match since you can fine-tune boost by RPM. If you're getting spiking, you can dial it out. Problem is the AVC-R is not that simple to use and takes time to properly set up, which many don't allow for. Heck, many people have problems with a Profec B
.One thing I would really like to experiment with is getting better control of the twins, maybe even controlling the turbo control and charge control solenoids. I think there's still quite a bit of unexplored territory when it comes to the sequential control system, and I think optimizing the system can net maximum power under the curve.
Trust me, when the time comes that I get a boost controller, I'll be doing a LOT of work and testing. This is one area that's greatly misunderstood - heck, there's a post every day on "how do I install my new boost controller" or "how do I set up my new boost controller". This is one area that sorely needs better documentation, especially with noob-friendly pictures
.Dale