Anti-Detonation device explained...........
08-13-03, 03:00 PM
#1
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Anti-Detonation device explained...........
Modern engines are capable of utilizing slightyl higher compression ratios than in the past because ECUs are capable of sensing the onset of detonation and can retard the spark to eliminate detonation. Unfortuently, a drastic loss in power results from retrading the spark. Detonation usually ossurs while an engine is under load.
For years, folks have tinkered with engines to optimize performance for racing. Stock engines are manufactured to optimize performance for pump gas. For the most part the higher the octane the less liekly it will detonate granted that the respective mods are constant. Furthermore, better burning fuel eliminate detonation allowing for optimal performance.
The "anti-detonation device" (ADD) is a fuel processing system consisting of several sections that are capable of mixing fuel and air into a more homogeneous state than is possible with standard fuel injection or carbs. The A/F mixture can be mixed into a more homogeneous state because the mixture particle size is reduced. This increase in homogeneity results in a much better burning mixture. The fuel particles are mixed in a way such that, when injected into a high compression or turbo'd combustion chamber, detonation is not present.
The optimal A/F ratio is about the same as 1bar of atmospheric pressure 14.7:1. Most of us run more fuel to reduce the drain from our bank accounts.
Basic concepts of its fucntion will be discussed but with no specific details can be revealed (don't harrass me with PM's and emails like a bunch of hungry puppies begging their mom for the daily vomit meal). Explicit characteristics of the fluid flow and actual dimensions will not be discussed.
The ADD was developed to aid in the thorough mixing of the A/F before it enters the combustion chamber. Air is added tot he fuel stream and subjected to multiple pressure drops. This is accomplished using a series of sections, similar orfices plates, shich restrict the A/F mixture. The combination of several pressure differentials and swirl induced by each orfice within the system aids in the atomization of the mixture. The greater the atomization of the mixture, the closer it is to being a homogenous flow which will enhance the evaporation of the flow.
Fuel is first injected inti the system by means of a fuel injector. Air is drawn into the system from radial holes aligned parallel to the flow of the fuel. Once the fuel and air have been mixed initially, the mixture travels through a series of orfices. The pressure differential created by the orfice is similar to that seen through the single venturi of a carburetor. A combination of multiple orfices, which produce pressure drops and an increase in turbulence throughout the mixture, contribute to better mixing and fuel droplet size reduction than is possible with injectors alone........
BTW, this should also add to fuel economy when ur just cruising.
For years, folks have tinkered with engines to optimize performance for racing. Stock engines are manufactured to optimize performance for pump gas. For the most part the higher the octane the less liekly it will detonate granted that the respective mods are constant. Furthermore, better burning fuel eliminate detonation allowing for optimal performance.
The "anti-detonation device" (ADD) is a fuel processing system consisting of several sections that are capable of mixing fuel and air into a more homogeneous state than is possible with standard fuel injection or carbs. The A/F mixture can be mixed into a more homogeneous state because the mixture particle size is reduced. This increase in homogeneity results in a much better burning mixture. The fuel particles are mixed in a way such that, when injected into a high compression or turbo'd combustion chamber, detonation is not present.
The optimal A/F ratio is about the same as 1bar of atmospheric pressure 14.7:1. Most of us run more fuel to reduce the drain from our bank accounts.
Basic concepts of its fucntion will be discussed but with no specific details can be revealed (don't harrass me with PM's and emails like a bunch of hungry puppies begging their mom for the daily vomit meal). Explicit characteristics of the fluid flow and actual dimensions will not be discussed.
The ADD was developed to aid in the thorough mixing of the A/F before it enters the combustion chamber. Air is added tot he fuel stream and subjected to multiple pressure drops. This is accomplished using a series of sections, similar orfices plates, shich restrict the A/F mixture. The combination of several pressure differentials and swirl induced by each orfice within the system aids in the atomization of the mixture. The greater the atomization of the mixture, the closer it is to being a homogenous flow which will enhance the evaporation of the flow.
Fuel is first injected inti the system by means of a fuel injector. Air is drawn into the system from radial holes aligned parallel to the flow of the fuel. Once the fuel and air have been mixed initially, the mixture travels through a series of orfices. The pressure differential created by the orfice is similar to that seen through the single venturi of a carburetor. A combination of multiple orfices, which produce pressure drops and an increase in turbulence throughout the mixture, contribute to better mixing and fuel droplet size reduction than is possible with injectors alone........
BTW, this should also add to fuel economy when ur just cruising.
08-13-03, 03:07 PM
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Hmmm... At least I can envision what it is you are talking about.
I also can't see how this is a cheap install. It has to fit into the fuel system at the injectors.
I also can't see how this is a cheap install. It has to fit into the fuel system at the injectors.
Last edited by DaedelGT; 08-13-03 at 03:13 PM.
08-13-03, 03:08 PM
#3
Interesting. Was there any event (disclosable or not) that now allows you to describe this setup?
I'll infer that the 'bolt-on' nature of this modification is some assembly that fits onto the injectors or intake. It doesn't sound like a $60 install to me, but so be it. Please comment if you can.
Dave
I'll infer that the 'bolt-on' nature of this modification is some assembly that fits onto the injectors or intake. It doesn't sound like a $60 install to me, but so be it. Please comment if you can.
Dave
08-13-03, 03:16 PM
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I knew it!
I already got a bunch of beggers.
Information = power
Well if I go into details then that means that the stuff becomes public knowledge and may indeed debunk KDR's ability to patent this technology for greater profit.
Why would I want to do that?
08-13-03, 03:18 PM
#7
Originally posted by fastcarfreak
where did you get all this info from? how accurate is this info?
where did you get all this info from? how accurate is this info?
Whether KDR can get all this functionality in under $1000, and whether it will be DIY installable, is another question.
Dave
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08-13-03, 03:22 PM
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That would explain higher possible A/F ratios. So I'm guessing that it doesn't resrict flow all that much. Hmm, there isn't much room between the motor and the LIM for something unless.... it actually replaces the LIM, hmm...
Man if you run race gas or some crazy toluene mix and if you make every attempt to keep your intake temps down you could run some absolutley INSANE A/F ratios!
Man if you run race gas or some crazy toluene mix and if you make every attempt to keep your intake temps down you could run some absolutley INSANE A/F ratios!
08-13-03, 03:22 PM
#9
Originally posted by BATMAN
I knew it!
I already got a bunch of beggers.
Information = power
Well if I go into details then that means that the stuff becomes public knowledge and may indeed debunk KDR's ability to patent this technology for greater profit.
Why would I want to do that?
I knew it!
I already got a bunch of beggers.
Information = power
Well if I go into details then that means that the stuff becomes public knowledge and may indeed debunk KDR's ability to patent this technology for greater profit.
Why would I want to do that?
08-13-03, 03:44 PM
#12
Re: Anti-Detonation device explained...........
Originally posted by BATMAN
Basic concepts of its fucntion will be discussed but with no specific details can be revealed (don't harrass me with PM's and emails like a bunch of hungry puppies begging their mom for the daily vomit meal).
Basic concepts of its fucntion will be discussed but with no specific details can be revealed (don't harrass me with PM's and emails like a bunch of hungry puppies begging their mom for the daily vomit meal).
Originally posted by BATMAN
I knew it!
I already got a bunch of beggers.
Information = power
Well if I go into details then that means that the stuff becomes public knowledge and may indeed debunk KDR's ability to patent this technology for greater profit.
Why would I want to do that?
I knew it!
I already got a bunch of beggers.
Information = power
Well if I go into details then that means that the stuff becomes public knowledge and may indeed debunk KDR's ability to patent this technology for greater profit.
Why would I want to do that?
No comment.
08-13-03, 03:59 PM
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Batman, are you by anychance related to skip, perhaps his son??? dont take offense if your not, just curious. I heard that his son is helping him with this project! I know that his son works for some technology firm or something like that, and i know that there is a lot of those types of places in Silicon Valley.
08-13-03, 05:58 PM
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Now I got people trying to attack me since they are upset that I'm not doling out the cookie crumbs.
How elementary....
Nope, I'm not realted to skip aside from the fact that I have the same number of homosomes as he does......
How elementary....
Nope, I'm not realted to skip aside from the fact that I have the same number of homosomes as he does......
08-13-03, 06:58 PM
#15
Weird Cat Man
No offense, but you have offered no proof that :
1) this device you describe works or exists
2) that this is the same type of setup that KDR is using
3) that you have any way of having any 'inside' info which would lend your post some credibility.
This is absolutely NOT a flame on you, but it's just me venting a little because of the other long thread already on this topic that contains no facts.
When they can sell me something that works, I'll be first in line!
Regards,
Brian
1) this device you describe works or exists
2) that this is the same type of setup that KDR is using
3) that you have any way of having any 'inside' info which would lend your post some credibility.
This is absolutely NOT a flame on you, but it's just me venting a little because of the other long thread already on this topic that contains no facts.
When they can sell me something that works, I'll be first in line!
Regards,
Brian
08-13-03, 07:09 PM
#18
No it's not Turbo'd
Well from what I read about on the KDR thread I must raise a big...
If you're familiar with a diesel engine... it gets great compression, due to the fact that that's what it does to get combustion going... A diesel uses a glow plug (not spark) initially to get the combustion cycle going, but once underway the only way to stop it is to remove fuel.. and air... to stall the engine...
Air and fuel go in and get compressed until the heat of that fact is so high that the fuel ignites by itself... without spark....
Basically detonation is the same.. fuel and air heat up to a point where they ignite beyond what Is safe.. and the whole cocktail explodes prematurely, blows apex seals away.. way before any spark gets to the fuel... (Detonation) so whatever spark plug you're talking about (KDR thread) or this doohickey... there's no suck thing as detonation proof, just raising the limits, and once you do you just have a higher threshold, but we're not talking unattainable... since all you need is to increase the compression / heat in the combustion chamber and you're right back to square one... pre detonation...
I like you batman, I really do, but there's no such thing as detonation proof or anti detonation... I think you're raising the bar which is admirable, but not to the point where you can't detonate...
At least not with what has been brought forth in these discussions....
-DC
If you're familiar with a diesel engine... it gets great compression, due to the fact that that's what it does to get combustion going... A diesel uses a glow plug (not spark) initially to get the combustion cycle going, but once underway the only way to stop it is to remove fuel.. and air... to stall the engine...
Air and fuel go in and get compressed until the heat of that fact is so high that the fuel ignites by itself... without spark....
Basically detonation is the same.. fuel and air heat up to a point where they ignite beyond what Is safe.. and the whole cocktail explodes prematurely, blows apex seals away.. way before any spark gets to the fuel... (Detonation) so whatever spark plug you're talking about (KDR thread) or this doohickey... there's no suck thing as detonation proof, just raising the limits, and once you do you just have a higher threshold, but we're not talking unattainable... since all you need is to increase the compression / heat in the combustion chamber and you're right back to square one... pre detonation...
I like you batman, I really do, but there's no such thing as detonation proof or anti detonation... I think you're raising the bar which is admirable, but not to the point where you can't detonate...
At least not with what has been brought forth in these discussions....
-DC
08-13-03, 07:14 PM
#19
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
this is like a soap opera....i dunno!
batman...your intial posts leads me to believe that you some how have inside info. If you do then good for you and thanks for posting up some facts. BUT, if you do not, then you atleast should state that the info that you do have is pure speculation and that what you are talking about "can" be what KDR has in development.
batman...your intial posts leads me to believe that you some how have inside info. If you do then good for you and thanks for posting up some facts. BUT, if you do not, then you atleast should state that the info that you do have is pure speculation and that what you are talking about "can" be what KDR has in development.
08-13-03, 07:22 PM
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DCrosby, they continue to use the glow plug. pv/t if the temp of the glow plug were to drop 10% the pressure would have to increase 10%, which is can not do because the compression is fixed.
08-13-03, 07:31 PM
#21
No it's not Turbo'd
From what I understand the glow plug is heated by the combustion and no electricity is applied to the plug after the car is warm... sort of like a glow plug on a model airplane engine... (Sorry I should have ellaborated)
-DC
-DC
08-13-03, 07:35 PM
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Originally posted by DaedelGT
DCrosby, they continue to use the glow plug. pv/t if the temp of the glow plug were to drop 10% the pressure would have to increase 10%, which is can not do because the compression is fixed.
DCrosby, they continue to use the glow plug. pv/t if the temp of the glow plug were to drop 10% the pressure would have to increase 10%, which is can not do because the compression is fixed.
In a glow plug engine, like a model airplane, the plug is designed to continue to glow after power is removed.
In a diesel engine compression alone is enough to ignite the mixture. The glow plug is used for starting because the fuel does not vaporize well in a cold engine.
Last edited by tmiked; 08-13-03 at 07:48 PM.
08-13-03, 07:38 PM
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the rx8 has a little tube in the primary port to supply air into the port.
mike
mike
08-13-03, 07:52 PM
#25
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary