HA this is fun. It is so easy to get people worked up. Maybe I should try it more often. Or maybe not, because then I might get another choo choo train driver insulting my intelligence.

Just wanted to throw some gas on the fire folks. RELAX... deep breath.... aaahhhhh

 

I'm gonna have to go ahead and answer yes to this one.

 

Marshall,

You *might* be correct, but it would be marginal at best.

This is, of course, something that we can't debate because neither one of us can accurately settle the argument. I will admit - it was a poor choice to use as a car superior to the 7, but certainly a good choice for my argument to dispell the statement of "tour de force."

Both cars were very close in performance. That was a bad choice for my example. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

xurotaryrocket - some of us value our time and when we have to spend twice as long reading a thread to sort out your useless posts its somewhat frustrating, so if you could just keep posts like your most recent ones in the lounge, or in a private message (which is where this post probably belongs) or off the board entirely it would be much appreciated, and i don't intend to respond to any posts you may make in response to this one, in fact if you have something to say i'd prefer you send me a private message. Not trying to be a dick - you seem like a nice enough guy but there is no need.

 

Bump.

 

this is killing me!! all you V8 conversion owners..... 1st, you're in the ROTARY FORUM!!! that means we are a bunch of people that loves the ROTARY engine and when you post a thread about V8 conversions in a FD, you better get ready to put the flame suit on.

second: if you don't like the design or the reliabilty on the rotary engine or don't have the skills to rebuild it or fix it??
then go get a MUSCLE CAR!!! F#$K all that stupid V8 conversion ****.

that's just like saying i'm putting a 13b REW in a shelby Cobra??!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?................:conf used: it just don't work buddy.

 

Look, I'm sure that these guys doing the conversions can handle all the constructive criticism in the world, and handle it tactfully. They can also handle people's opinions and treat them respectfully, when the opinions aren't close-minded dilusions on how grand and wonderful the rotary is!

There is a big difference between comments like "Hey, good job on the conversion. Looks like it's coming along nicely. Not something I would do though. I think the heart of the RX-7 is a rotary and I prefer to keep it that way."

AND

"You ******* morons! Holy **** this is sacrilege! You are all going straight to hell! You have no idea what you are doing. EGADS! The weight balance! The handling is ruined! The RX-7 isn't a muscle car! It's not a Corvette. You ******* mullet wearing sons-if-bitches! Go back into your cave with that damn neanderthal V8!!! BAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!"

See what I mean?

 

Can I go buy a Corvette and put in a 13BT?

Now what do you have to say?

I've had my '87TII since almost new, and have always loved it! Now it has a '00 LS1 6-speed. Still love my car! So what if it's 4th and final engine doesn't have rotors.

Point is: Still love my car! Key word = CAR. Thats, CAR!

Who gives what's under the hood?!?!

How many V8 conversion people jump in and slam the crap out of the rotaries? Maybe, one or two.

Last time I checked, this was an RX7 forum!

I personally know that there is a group of people at Mazda corporate, that thinks my car is the ****!

Take a look..... ( Link below)

 

Oh yea, grow up and get over it!

Ok, I'm done now

 

That was uncalled for. How old are you?

It's the 3rd generation specific forum. No where in the rules does it say it has to be rotary powered.... Oh wait... You didn't read them did you...

 

man i hate to tell you this but there are "kids" on this forum with much more than $15K in thier cars.

Also, I'd tend to agree with you that the hp rateing that chvy gives the LS1 Z28's (which is 310-320 depending on model and yr, not 345) is probably underrated. From what I can tell they usually dyno around 290-300 at the wheels and produce 1/4 mile times to back up 290-300. It just seems like that is a lot of money to spend to not gain any performance. I mean in both paths (modding rotary or swaping LS1) your going to need to buy a intake, in both cases you need to buy a full exhaust system. In the case of the rotary route you'll need some forum of upgraded ecu which can be had for $500 up to $1500 depending on how elaborate you want to get. In the case of the LS1 route you have to buy engine, trans, you guys parts, ect ect ect. After its all said and done the 13b with intake, exhaust, and ecu upgrade at 12-13psi will dyno around 330 at the wheels and still have 1-2 psi of boost to go. It'll also back those numbers up at the track just like I did by pulling a 12.3 @ 113 with those exact mods. The stock LS1 is going to dyno around 290-310 and if you want more out of it then your going to be spending even more money.

I think this is the prob, people are not seeing the point. To me it seems purely based on reliability but I dont know if its worth it when I can replace the 13b at least 3 times for the cost of the LS1 conversion. If I replace the 13b myself I can prob do it about 6 times.

What am I missing? Where is the logic?

Is this mainly for people that dont have access to dyno tuners or mechanics that are willing to work on rotary? I know the feeling of not being able to get local support for my car as I was in that ship for a while, I basically made contacts and learned what I needed to do to take my car to the next level withouth relying on other people. Is this kit mainly geared toward people in those situations? If so I can see the reasoning, other than that I'm not so sure....not that it matters if I can understand the reasoning behind someone elses car I'm just trying to understand what motivations brought this kit into a reality.

STEPHEN

 

etraylor...your post count it so low because you didnt come over here until your pal decided to announce his v8 project. you cant pass yourself off as a member of the rx7 community by popping in one day and pretending like you are one. Your rationale is pure pistonhead...and the fanatical rotorheads see that instantly. you should have expected to be flamed.

you are obviously a lurker of the GM boards. If I had time Id go take a look at the firebird/camaro/vette/mullett boards to find your name. if i went over to your boards and started championing japanese innovation and saying things like the corvettes are just glorified camaros and that they are for 45 year old men in mid life crisis...(fact...vettes have a stigma in regards to gold watch wearing 45 year old men with young women who are only using the owners for the money they saved) ...i dont go over there and spout that crap though...right? corvettes also have the stigma as the car for american guys who cant afford real italian/german sports machines. do i go over to your boards and say **** like that? no. if i did I would get flamed...just as you have found that you are being flamed by the rotorheads in the above posts.

you came here for one reason and one reason only...to try to sell this conversion of your pals and to back him up with your arguments. Your posts make this obvious. You have no idea how this car is going to work out in the long run. You come here trying to sell the project and You have posted almost nothing but argumentative comments. you cant sway the fd crowd any more than i could come over to your boards and convert you

this thread turned the direction it did particularily after you began spreading the fire. saying things like the rx will not be a classic (that is gas on the fire) and that people are tired of rotors flying thru the hood...lame(that hasnt happend to anyone I know EVER.)

I was going to do this same conversion three years ago...the grannys conversion...I had lost a motor after continual hard hot driving and was looking into my options. I decided that it was not worth throwing down TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS up front to do it. Simple as that. If i was going to throw down 20k UP FRONT you are damn sure Id just go buy a viper instead. I chose to keep the rotary where it was intended and to build around it instead. like a project....patient...eventually it would add up to twenty grand...but not all at once and not up front. Id rather get a viper than do that.

the v8 conversion is a terribly painful process as we have all witnessed over the years. there are a few successful tries out there...but just as many or more that have failed and have seen their projects dragged out over MULTIPLE summers, winters, springs, and falls. we have seen vendors that have suckered their customers...parts that just dont fit...numerous retries...constant research...too many headaches to list.

Jim Labreck is trying to do his right...he is even spending the money to do it. If anyone was going to do it right it is going to be him. yet...it is still in the garage...yet I still read about the problems he is going through. (read the latest grannys thread in regards to his v8 conversion) Fortunately he has a zo6 already and doesnt seem to lose sleep when the rx is down. Most the guys around here dont own multiple sports cars. They own their seven...they chose their seven...and if it goes down then they are freaking out til it is back up. Doing the v8 conversion will take months...and way too much money for most people here who prefer turbo cars and prefer to keep the rotary inside. until we see differently then we can only go by what we have seen before. tons of headaches...tons of time invested...only a couple success stories...and huge dough invested.

I think you miss the point on why a lot of guys went with the seven...even though most could afford a new vette. I could have gone with either...instead I chose the seven for what it was....a car without the vette ownership stigmas and something rare enough to turn heads ten years after it was shipped. Vettes dont do that...perhaps the zo6 does...but the rest are just too common to seem "different". that is one of the things the rx crowd cherishes...and that is how different their car is..and how well it hangs with the big boys. (correct me if i am wrong but rotaries still often rule in 1/4 mile drags.....is there a vette that can run with ray lockheads rotary seven??)...

the main issues you seem to have with the rotary have to do with reliability...it is unfortunate that the learning curve is so steep with them...but even though Ive lost a motor I do not regret going with the machine.

in my mind...the third gen will be a classic. It will be known as the little car that knocked GM and Ford on its ***...which in turn led to that motor that you covet so. Without the asswhooping in all aspects of track numbers, skidpad numbers, 0-60 times, 1/4 mile times etc...that the stock 7 did to the 93 vettes (which ruled the road til then) and the 93 rustangs, your cars may not be where they are today. mazda threw some stiff competition...and no one saw it coming. GM had to compete...tis too bad that mazda stopped shipping them here...the rx and the supras retired as the champs...and now the vettes are back. they dont have **** for competition any more...but they are back. I mean..who would have thought back in 93 that a rotary powered car would come along on the market and stomp that generation vette into obscurity?

I have been a vette lover since i was 9 years old. I wanted a vette almost my whole life....THEN the FD came along and wiped that slate clean. I was an rx guy ever since.

I have heard all your arguments...and many of them are valid. Who wouldnt want a light weight car with 500 plus hp and just as much torque and still got good gas mileage. I sure as hell would. However..until you demonstrate it with actual numbers...and proof of reliability two or three years later then it is hard to believe that the emperor has any clothes on at all.



j

 

I've avoided this thread until now and I see that this thread is quite heated.

People have been doing conversions for quite some time.

Some examples of known conversions:

RB series engine in 240sx. (Nissan motor in Nissan)
SR series engine in Skyline. (Nissan in Nissan)
RB engine in Supra (Nissan in Toyota)
Supra engine in MR2/MR-S (Toyota in Toyota)
Supra engine in Toyota Soarer (Toyota in Toyota)
13B in a Miata (Mazda in Mazda)

And this thread for example, a piston engine into a RX-7.

For the naysayers saying that this type of swap is unacceptable...What EXACTLY dictates what is an acceptable swap? Is it the chassis or the engine or BOTH? What would be your answer?

Are you an individual who thinks the almighty rotary engine is superior to all?

When you come up w/ an answer think about this. Todd Kaneko (sp?) of Mazda has a Datsun 510 w/ a rotary engine in it. He thinks that this is a great conversion. What do you have to say about that? Sacrilige???

A Viper engine has been installed into a PT cruiser.
An Integra Type R motor in a Lotus chassis.

Hell, the Ultima allows your choice of different engines. The McLaren is powered by a BMW engine. Albeit, the engine is licensed for it, but it is still NOT an original McLaren engine. It is a BMW engine.

So what do you guys have to say now. Quite frankly, these individuals wanted to try something different. They felt that they can improve on something. At least they had the ***** to do it. I give credit to the individuals who wanted to do something different, rather than follow the pack.

 

First the man who penned the new C5 was quoted as saying he was inspired by the 7's lines. I'm sure thats where that came from.

Was it a tour deforce of it's day I'd have to say yes, it pulled .99G on the pad. 0-60 in 5 seconds quarter in 13.9 and those aren't even the best numbers posted.

As for classic well do I think that it will have a place in history yes, but classic is a relative term I guarantee 90% of the public couldn't identify any of the cars you listed as classics and what was considered a great car in the 50's 60's etc. most of the younger crowd today don't consider those classics as great cars. I do know that there was a awsome group of performance cars in the early 90's just as there was in the late 60's. I do think it will be remebered as one of the great cars of that time, and that is what being a classic is isn't it?

No way related to a C5 who cares.
The C5 is a descent car it does look similar to a 7 but comparing a 97 to a 93 is a stupid point.
If your going to compare, compare a 93 to a 93 or a 01 to a 01.

Comparing it to a ZR1 is just plain silly first that car was nothing more than a overpriced poorly built rattle trap like all vettes at that time.The Z06 is proof of that. The only people that think the ZR1 is worth anything are the ones who spent to much money on one, and comparing a $70,000 dolllar car to a $30,000 dollar one is also pointless.Plain fact is from 74 to 97 corvettes pretty much were nothing they once were.I've owned a 67 and a 72. I give credit to GM for finally making something worthwhile again.
Same with the viper(owned 96 gts) great car but comparing it to a car that it costs more than twice than, is stupid. Some people would look at a viper and say it's a way overpriced undertechnologied dodge.It's all relative.

A GT40 was a great car one of my all time favorites again completely different class of car from a different time. pointless comparison.That's like saying, Fords GT40 is so great and beat ferrari at it's own game, lets see how it does against the F60. See how silly that sounds.

Rotary history, um, lets see, was originally used as a water pump.

I think if he wants to put a V8 in his car let him do I think it makes it better than it was no just different and thats where I think the argument starts. Your opinion of it making it "better than".

 

Exactly my point about preventive maintainence by replacing the engine every 50K (like an airplane engine eh?) three times for the cost of conversion. And not only that, the little nitty gritty things that this shop would never ever have the time or money to sort out like the factory who spent millions on development. For example, look at Jim Lab post regarding the 3 broken engine mounts using Granny engine cradle.

This conversion is for those who start off with a $4K shell without engine/tranny and who are handy with tools or have a mechanic living in a trailer in their back yards. Otherwise, for people like me who is happy with 280-330 rwhp and who have already sunk $5k to $10K into the car, the rotary is perfectly suitable.

 

[sarcasm] I want to dump a 440 in my FD [/sarcasm]

 

I throw facts out and you want to argue them.

I'm done with the childish arguments.

Clearly Brian doesn't have anything to show for all his work. Obviously it was a miserable failure and will never see the street, much less the drag strip or an autoX event. <roll eyes>

 

Don't give up yet.

 

As Artguy stated, what would happen if one of us went onto ls1.com and started going off about rotaries? We would get flamed harder than you are -- and in fact, have.

What facts have you thrown out there? Pretty much the entire sum of your posts = the rotary is **** and the FD isn't that big a deal anyway. And as a matter of fact, the 3rd gen RX-7 WAS a tour de force when it came out. There was nothing anywhere near it's price range that could compete with it as an all around sports car. (BTW, yes, the FD could stomp a 93 cobra in EVERY measure of performance. Hell, my very mildly modded FD beats 98-99 cobras, which are a bit faster than 93s.) As far as the Supra, a TT model cost $50k, a bit more than the mid $30s RX-7.

None of us said that Brian's accomplishment was a failure, in fact many of us have said the opposite. Are we all childish because we don't immediately just agree with whatever a vendor and his pal are saying? Give me a break.

 

Give me a break. So you're telling me that with their millions of dollars of research that Mazda designed engine mounts that never fail? How about the differential mount bushings? Rear supspension? How about the PPF cracking? Sequential turbo control system problems? Pre-cat superheating the engine bay and cooking off the battery or clogging the main cat and eventually frying the turbos??

Apparently you can have a few problems even when you do have millions of dollars to throw at research and development...

Grant fucked up the cradle, no one else. He took it upon himself to build it in such a way that it eliminated the backing plates of those specific motor mounts for no apparent reason that I'm able to determine. If it had been built correctly, as I specified, Bill Hagen would still be on his first set of motor mounts. It's not a fault in the conversion, the fault lies solely with Grant and his cradle.

You're probably right. The conversion probably makes more sense for someone with a salvage or fire car, or with a blown engine. Someone with a healthy engine (cross your fingers) would probably not be as interested... unless they've gone through an engine or two already, and are looking for an alternative solution. Not everyone likes to play musical engines with their cars. Some people just like to turn the key and drive.

There are plenty of people out there with blown engines who'd be more than happy to buy someone's healthy engine, defraying some of the conversion cost. If you have $5-10k in rotary-specific modifications, there are plenty of people who'd be more than happy to take them off your hands... further defraying the cost of the conversion. It is conceivable that someone fed up with the rotary who had a lot of choice aftermarket parts could sell all of their equipment and easily pay for a large part (if not all) of the conversion costs.

But what you're really missing is the power potential of the converted car. The stock LS1 is only the beginning. Even in stock form, the LS1 engine will make 320-340+ horsepower, without a single modification. A stock F-body LS1 in a car with the weight of an RX-7 is probably a low-mid 12-second car on street tires with a decent driver, but you haven't even begun to tap its full potential yet.

Spend $1,500-2,000 on a set of LS6 heads, an LS6 intake (assuming you didn't get a 2001-2002 LS1) and an LS6 cam, and not only could you pass emissions, but you'll be making 420+ horsepower. How hard do you have to push a stock twin turbo rotary to make 360 RWHP? Too hard, in my opinion, and reliability isn't even comparable.

Want even more power from your LS1? Port the heads and get a bigger cam. Pushing 400+ RWHP with the LS1 isn't a problem or even very expensive when compared to what 400+ RWHP would cost you with a rotary powerplant. A decent single turbo kit alone would likely cost as much as the modifications for the LS1. If not, the engine management and fuel upgrades required would more than cover it.

Hopefully you're starting to get the picture. I think many people only see the performance potential of a stock LS1 conversion as an end result. What they should really be looking at is the power potential of the new powerplant after the basic conversion is finished. The LS1 is an excellent platform to build on, and you can easily and cheaply make a lot more horsepower once you've got one in your car.

 

no one said he failed...his success with his prototype is to be commended.

we throw facts back and you cant argue either...its hard to argue when the other side is just as right. the 93-95 sevens ate the 93-95 vettes for breakfast. they turned me from a vette man to a seven man the first time I drove one.

rynberg has summed it up perfectly...well done mr berg

the 93 vette/american muscle world got their **** stomped by the sevens and it took five years for GM to get back above them..and TEN for ford.


that is enough to call it a classic in my eyes.


j

for those who are successful with the engine swapping...i congratulate you. I would love to see it with my own eyes...and i would love to drive one..that is for sure. if you can get it to work well then you are a trailblazer and deserve the congrats that are due.

 

Are you talking to me or other guys? To be honest I havent seen all that many facts to support that the money is better spent on a LS1 versus just modding the rotary. I'm not trying to agrue, as I've stated numberous times it doesnt hurt my feeling that someone wants to drop a V8 in thier car, its fine with me cause I didnt buy there car. You'r trying to sell it as being superior so I'm just trying to weight all the advantages with the cost to see if it is truely superior. I'm not considering it but I think this info is good for the thread. I'm going to finish up with my car and hopefully will be done tuning in about 2 weeks. I really do what to head out that way and check out the car. We can do some friendly comparing

BTW- Was this car heavily moded or what when you guys decided to do this? Was it done mostly cause you couldnt find a good tuner, ect for the car???

Later,
STEPHEN

 

I have become a rotary nut too, but what's with the hatred on engine swaps? People have been swapping motors as long as cars have been on the road. I see no trouble with it unless the car is a collector, then swapping a different motor is truly destroying the car. FDs aren't collector cars. Maybe in another 20 years, but not now.

I personally would love to see one of these projects first hand.

 

Stephen,
If you would read the thread and the web site you would see that the conversion was done to a 7 that was burned.

 

What does that have to do with anything I posted???

Anthony up in NY had his car burn to the groud and he didn't have to put a LS1 in it.....what does the fact that it cought on fire have to do with installing a LS1?

STEPHEN