v mount setup pics
02-19-07, 08:43 AM
#26
To me it was more important to get good flow to the IC. I didn't want to put fans on it to pull air through it. Now on the other hand the stock FD fans pull crazy amounts of air, a lot better than most aftermarket fan kits. I retained the stock fans and tilted the radiator a little more than most kits, I think. With proper ducting and a center divider between the IC and the radiator this should not be a problem. My coolant temps stayed consistently low, the way you see it in the pics with no ducting. I put 3000 miles on it this way with out one temp problem.
As far as the reversal of the angle of the radiator. I don't think the G forces that the car will be able to produce will be able to affect the flow of water through the radiator in any adverse way.
Just my $.02
Brandon
As far as the reversal of the angle of the radiator. I don't think the G forces that the car will be able to produce will be able to affect the flow of water through the radiator in any adverse way.
Just my $.02
Brandon
02-19-07, 08:45 AM
#27
What can be said about most of the setups people have posted is they're not as efficient as they could be. As you'll notice almost none of them are properly ducted. There should be some sort of air splitter to direct air to the IC and to the radiator to force it through.
All of these setups will work better then stock but not as good as they could work if properly ducted, I'll put it that way...mine included.
All of these setups will work better then stock but not as good as they could work if properly ducted, I'll put it that way...mine included.
02-19-07, 08:55 AM
#29
Originally Posted by Scrub
What can be said about most of the setups people have posted is they're not as efficient as they could be. As you'll notice almost none of them are properly ducted. There should be some sort of air splitter to direct air to the IC and to the radiator to force it through.
All of these setups will work better then stock but not as good as they could work if properly ducted, I'll put it that way...mine included.
All of these setups will work better then stock but not as good as they could work if properly ducted, I'll put it that way...mine included.
A center divider, I think is critical in the V-mount set up. With some adjust ability to choose which component gets more air would be even better. I think HKS makes there's this way and I believe that KINETIK_FD3S fabbed his with this also. All of this will be done to mine by the time it comes out of storage this year.
02-19-07, 08:56 AM
#30
I understand your point... the 90 degree turn that charge air must make isn't optimal, but from a packaging standpoint it's unavoidable... and certainly no worse than any of the upgrade stock-mount set-ups
Originally Posted by Speedworks
Again Worthless air flow IC piping going in and out the IC. Air just bounces into the back of the endtank wall instead of being curved into the core. This is not an optimal setup considering flow and efficiency. Certainly at 3k.
02-19-07, 09:05 AM
#32
Guys, the stock radiator sits at a 30 degree angle. It really doesn't matter whether that's 30 degrees with the high-side in front, or 30 degrees w/ the high side in back.
What the reversed radiator angle allows is much more incoming air to be directed at the IC without it having to climb up and over the radiator in that convoluted duct. You DO accept that if you're directing more incoming air at the IC, you MUST be directing less at the radiator... but the reverse angle of the radiator has nothing to do with that.
I will reiterate that what I see in these photos are some MONDO gaps... strangely even at the apex point where the radiator and IC should theoretically meet. What's up with THAT? That's probably the worst place to have a gap... you're just blowing all of your incoming air right at your main pulley!
I also think that without a sealed and dedicated intake box, you're wasting alot of incoming air into the gap by the intake, and not all of it wiull be absorbed by the intake. Remember, air follows the path of least resistance, so it's heading right for the holes instead of being squeezed through either core.
Even without a divider, significan't air should go through the IC, because the core is less dense than the radiator (see: least resistance)... but what worries me about a no-divider set up is, if you'rer sitting relatively still with the rad fans on, they are likely pulling air down and backthrough the IC core in reverse. Probably not much, because there's a lower resistance source at the nose of the car... but I wouldn't be surprised if it's some. I'm going top be testing that once mines built.
What the reversed radiator angle allows is much more incoming air to be directed at the IC without it having to climb up and over the radiator in that convoluted duct. You DO accept that if you're directing more incoming air at the IC, you MUST be directing less at the radiator... but the reverse angle of the radiator has nothing to do with that.
I will reiterate that what I see in these photos are some MONDO gaps... strangely even at the apex point where the radiator and IC should theoretically meet. What's up with THAT? That's probably the worst place to have a gap... you're just blowing all of your incoming air right at your main pulley!
I also think that without a sealed and dedicated intake box, you're wasting alot of incoming air into the gap by the intake, and not all of it wiull be absorbed by the intake. Remember, air follows the path of least resistance, so it's heading right for the holes instead of being squeezed through either core.
Even without a divider, significan't air should go through the IC, because the core is less dense than the radiator (see: least resistance)... but what worries me about a no-divider set up is, if you'rer sitting relatively still with the rad fans on, they are likely pulling air down and backthrough the IC core in reverse. Probably not much, because there's a lower resistance source at the nose of the car... but I wouldn't be surprised if it's some. I'm going top be testing that once mines built.
02-19-07, 09:07 AM
#33
toeachisown
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: glen burnie, md
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by oorx7
You mean like stock?
02-19-07, 09:22 AM
#34
ptrhahn,
While I do not have a degree in fluid dynamics or any background in aerodynamics I wouldn't say I know how the characteristics of airflow work. I agree with most of your post except for the statement about the V-mount stealing some air from the radiator. The stock radiator configuration seemed to push the air down the face of the radaitor and not through the radiator. But I could be mistaken, since when I think about it...the stock undertray and radiator create a sealed duct forcing air through the radiator, but once you remove that undertray then my statement becomes true
While I do not have a degree in fluid dynamics or any background in aerodynamics I wouldn't say I know how the characteristics of airflow work. I agree with most of your post except for the statement about the V-mount stealing some air from the radiator. The stock radiator configuration seemed to push the air down the face of the radaitor and not through the radiator. But I could be mistaken, since when I think about it...the stock undertray and radiator create a sealed duct forcing air through the radiator, but once you remove that undertray then my statement becomes true
02-19-07, 09:37 AM
#35
^^^^^
Well, you've only got X amount of air coming in the nose of the car. It can go any of 4 places. 1. Through the radiator. 2. Through the IC. 3. Into the intake. 4. Through some gap in the ducting and out under the car with the rest of the exhausted air.
In a V-mount, you are (hopefully) pushing more air through the IC than you would with that little duct on a stock mount setup (otherwise, how would would it cool more efficiently?), so as along as #'s 3 & 4 are equal, you litteraly HAVE to be directing LESS air through the radiator.
The undertray on a V-mount is just for protection... not for air sealing... Ideally, the angle means the low point of the radiator is against the nose of the car, so you've just got a couple wedge-shaped holes on either side to plug.... if you think about it, the air going to the IC in a v-mount set up is about the same as would've escaped through the hole in front if you left the undertray off of a SMIC setup. The hole's just on the top rather than the bottom.
Well, you've only got X amount of air coming in the nose of the car. It can go any of 4 places. 1. Through the radiator. 2. Through the IC. 3. Into the intake. 4. Through some gap in the ducting and out under the car with the rest of the exhausted air.
In a V-mount, you are (hopefully) pushing more air through the IC than you would with that little duct on a stock mount setup (otherwise, how would would it cool more efficiently?), so as along as #'s 3 & 4 are equal, you litteraly HAVE to be directing LESS air through the radiator.
The undertray on a V-mount is just for protection... not for air sealing... Ideally, the angle means the low point of the radiator is against the nose of the car, so you've just got a couple wedge-shaped holes on either side to plug.... if you think about it, the air going to the IC in a v-mount set up is about the same as would've escaped through the hole in front if you left the undertray off of a SMIC setup. The hole's just on the top rather than the bottom.
02-19-07, 09:50 AM
#36
Got Rotors?
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One thing that can't be forgotten is proper ducting BEHIND the radiator and IC. Not saying that it doesn't work without it but it optimises the setup. The under tray should be properly modified for the hot radiator air to smoothly flow under the car, and then a vented hood to release the trapped IC air to escape. Or if you don't want an aftermarket hood, there is that mod that involves utilizing the vent behind the front wheels by cutting a circular hole in each upper corner of the engine compartment and ducting the hole to the vent. Not as efficient but better than nothing.
02-19-07, 09:53 AM
#37
Originally Posted by Speedworks
Again Worthless air flow IC piping going in and out the IC. Air just bounces into the back of the endtank wall instead of being curved into the core. This is not an optimal setup considering flow and efficiency. Certainly at 3k.
02-19-07, 10:10 AM
#39
Originally Posted by turbodrx7
Pretty much Every V-mount in this thread and setup the same way as that one. It is unavoidable...
red circle.
As far as the gap which is in between my IC and radiator, this will be closed up with proper ducting and a divider will be utilized as well.
02-19-07, 02:37 PM
#44
Rotary Poseur
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Richmond, BC, Canada
Posts: 718
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Okey dokey...I'll prolly get lynched again for this. 
I did a VMIC where I had the IC on the bottom so I can get the pipe coming into the endtanks in the same direction as the air flow. We also welded in vanes in the entanks to minimize turbulence and hopefully "encourage" the air to evenly distribute through the core. The other reasoning for putting the IC on the bottom was so that if I out drive myself and go offroading during a track day...and I happend to rip the piping and core off, I can still limp home. Can't say the same if I killed off the rad.
In addition, I did a splitter so that air going to the IC and rad core will get their own fair share of the flow. I got killed last time by ppl for the angles of the cores but it seems to work. Additionally, I thought to encourage flow through the IC core, I need to create less back pressure behind it. Thusly, I did a vented undertray that - when at speeds - vents the air pressure rearward and not straight down to minimize front end lift. I didn't wind tunnel this nor have sensors to see if it's causing lift. However, at a track event I didn't have any issues with high speed wandering or traction up front.
Insofar as how well it works, I forgot to log the air temp (although it's via the Datalogit so the heat soaked sensor underneath the UIM may be skewing the heat exchange results). Empirically, after one session in 26degC weather, I recall the "cool" side piping warm to the touch and the "hot" side too hot to touch. At an autox yesterday, after a 3 runs, it was cool to touch the cold side and again hot to touch the turbo side.
WRT water temp, my gauges were reading 90-95 during the lapping day for all 4 sessions. So far so good, I guess.
I did a VMIC where I had the IC on the bottom so I can get the pipe coming into the endtanks in the same direction as the air flow. We also welded in vanes in the entanks to minimize turbulence and hopefully "encourage" the air to evenly distribute through the core. The other reasoning for putting the IC on the bottom was so that if I out drive myself and go offroading during a track day...and I happend to rip the piping and core off, I can still limp home. Can't say the same if I killed off the rad.
In addition, I did a splitter so that air going to the IC and rad core will get their own fair share of the flow. I got killed last time by ppl for the angles of the cores but it seems to work. Additionally, I thought to encourage flow through the IC core, I need to create less back pressure behind it. Thusly, I did a vented undertray that - when at speeds - vents the air pressure rearward and not straight down to minimize front end lift. I didn't wind tunnel this nor have sensors to see if it's causing lift. However, at a track event I didn't have any issues with high speed wandering or traction up front.
Insofar as how well it works, I forgot to log the air temp (although it's via the Datalogit so the heat soaked sensor underneath the UIM may be skewing the heat exchange results). Empirically, after one session in 26degC weather, I recall the "cool" side piping warm to the touch and the "hot" side too hot to touch. At an autox yesterday, after a 3 runs, it was cool to touch the cold side and again hot to touch the turbo side.
WRT water temp, my gauges were reading 90-95 during the lapping day for all 4 sessions. So far so good, I guess.
02-19-07, 04:28 PM
#46
rx7 fanatic
Join Date: May 2005
Location: norman,ok
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Stix37867
One thing that can't be forgotten is proper ducting BEHIND the radiator and IC. Not saying that it doesn't work without it but it optimises the setup. The under tray should be properly modified for the hot radiator air to smoothly flow under the car, and then a vented hood to release the trapped IC air to escape. Or if you don't want an aftermarket hood, there is that mod that involves utilizing the vent behind the front wheels by cutting a circular hole in each upper corner of the engine compartment and ducting the hole to the vent. Not as efficient but better than nothing.
can't believe that this is the only person that has elaborated on this point. Consider the fact that you have an airtight duct forcing all of the air through both the radiator and the i/c, (as this is the main point, getting more air to the i/c without having to mess with that tiny gap caused by the angle of the stock radiator, causing you to go fmic as teh other option.), when you force the path of air to a confined area, its pretty redundant to not have a way for the air to circulate out. Think of it as a slipstream, this would actually create MORE suction. A well vented hood would be almost necessary to utilize the FULL benefit of this setup.
02-19-07, 07:44 PM
#47
almost done
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: 250 HZ
Posts: 1,049
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Speedworks
Nice, but from an engineering point off view, the entrance and exiting angle of the IC piping is total crap. Air going in and out will NEVER use the full IC core size in an efficient way. Maybe even less than the original one.
This can be seen in many aftermarket IC setups. Too bad really, considering the prices of these ktis
This can be seen in many aftermarket IC setups. Too bad really, considering the prices of these ktis
ducting behind the radiator is almost impossible and there is no need for it i have zero issues with my water temp.
02-19-07, 07:49 PM
#49
Boost Addict
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: ajax
Posts: 2,274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dont have my undertray on but experience np. I do how ever have a Scoot hood and my intake temps and coolant temps couldnt have been ebtter this summer. I never have to be worried about temps rising now. even sitting in traffic np!
