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Hey there everyone, Not sure how many of you have seen Arnold Design digital rendering of an FD, but in his artwork he has his design with a low-profile pop up headlight, not unlike many I've seen on this forum but still unique. My question is, how much demand would there be for a kit for this style of headlight with LEDs and how much would you expect to pay? I was thinking about 3D scanning the current surround, modifying it in CAD, and then have hardware that would only pop the headlights up just enough. Thanks!
Realeux_7 already made thos exact headlights. You may want to contact him. I may have spelled his screen name wrong
Yeah, I think his user name is spelled wrong but I know who you're talking about, I follow him on Instagram. But with that said, I had to go back and look at his headlights, and although they are similar, his are 5 individual LEDS in the headlights and uses the bumper lights as his "low beams". I do not have a 99 spec bumper so I'd want to see if it's possible to maintain normal usability.
dual brightness LEDs homie...... you would do the exact same design just with a different bulb.
Regardless the route though, my questions still stands, how much interest is possibly out there for a kit? and if so, what price would the majority of persons be willing to pay? I know the Knight Sport kits go for a pretty penny.
and i belive that was because i restored it. the way it was offered was better than what you would have got from knightsports brand new.
evo-r sells their kits from 650-950 depending on the options
the re-a and r-magic lights are right around 1000
the hot water labs lights are a little over 700 and they use the most modern lighting technology out of all the after market options available.
sakebomb sells their projectors for 1000 and those are JUST the housings
seems the happy place for nice after market lights are in the 600-900 range. if can set the lights up to operate like the knightsports where you re-use the stock motors and have the option of up and down, youll be on to something. i think releaux(?) has his in a fixed position.
Last edited by cr-rex; 09-09-19 at 03:20 PM.
Reason: post number 2000!!!!
I like that look, appearance wise probably the best low profile pop up. Space is going to be your best enemy here, you are going to have a tough time fitting any LED projector in that tight space that can produce decent light output.
If you could make something similar to that design, with good useable light output that can compete with modern cars, I'm sure there would be plenty of interest. Lighting is one area that really dates older cars like the FD.
If you could make something similar to that design, with good usable light output that can compete with modern cars, I'm sure there would be plenty of interest. Lighting is one area that really dates older cars like the FD.
There is the Vulcan Autoworx kit that's been being worked on as of recently utilizing Hella light modules. Looking quite promising.
Been speaking with reuleaux7 and we've found an interesting possible solution for the headlight lift height that doesn't require any mechanical changes. Long story short, we are looking at using circuit board (Control box) that you'd splice into the motor assembly wiring that would allow you to control the height, but function on the normal switch like OEM. My side task right now is finding lighting that will be slim enough yet provide plenty of lighting. I found some various 2.5' projector lenses with square" halo" look, which may provide enough light, but the primary focus in the short term will be making the pop-up feature work like OEM but be low-profile. Gonna be talking with some LED experts as well to get ideas. I'm Meeting with one of my code writing buddies tonight to talk about what it'll take to make it work... aside from tons of testing
Been following his build as well. I think it looks really good. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see a kit that looks good and is easy to install, but I've seen too many projects fall through. That's why I'm looking into the possibility of maintaining things mechanically as much as possible and using programmable arduinos (Think raspberry Pi boards) to control things. A fella in Sweden used a similar relay board to control his Miata headlights via smartphone app. This is what got my gears turning. This has the potential to have less development time along with lower costs.
Historically sleepy eyes have always had shitty lighting. I don't know if it's the design of the FDs front bumper or whether everyone else who has tried was doing it wrong, but I've never seen a sleepy eyed FD that had decent light output. I've also noticed that cars with "jeweled" headlights (ala pretty much all Acuras) also don't have the best lighting.
Those look cool for a show car, but if you want to drive at night, Sakebomb has the headlights dialed.
^ My sleepy eye conversion has dramatically better lighting than OEM and IMO, rivals or is better than that of the Sakebomb kit. This is the base design being used by Matt Gold and his kit.
Regarding using Arduino to control the headlight motor, that is a cool idea. Keep in mind that you will need to solve the bump stop issue if you go that route, meaning that the headlights will shake if they don't hit the OEM bump stop, and if keeping the same OEM mechanisms, this will be the case.
It all comes down to space, the lower you want to keep the headlight for that look the less room you have to fit a decent projector in there, and the less flexible aiming of your beam can be. Even the jeweled LED takes up a lot of space, but any projector is better than stock reflector so they’ll do decent against stock light, but can’t compete with high end HID projector yet IMO.
That first render looks AWESOME! I'm normally not a fan of hard lines (90 degree angles) on the FD - but it looks really good.
That said, and don't take this the wrong way - but it's a render. It doesn't and never existed. I don't even think you can buy individual 'jewel' LEDs (link me if I'm wrong), which means you're limited to retrofitting from a TLX (or GS or Prius or whatever), which means you're cutting down a series of 5 lamps to 3 (which I don't know is even possible), which means you're forced to design the kit around a modified lamp as opposed to a consistently produced raw good. Which at the end of the day means, you're making something that may or may not look like the render.
I get it... "we'll just 3D scan it, modifying it in CAD, and work out the details" sounds like a promising plan. But it's those pesky details that really bogs things down. Not to mention, is this going to be an OEM grade solution that people are going to pay hard earned money for and bolt in? Or just a cool DIY people can do? Does it need to look cool in Instagram photos from 10 feet away or does it have to make people ask "is that factory?" and perform really well at night. There is a very real and different set of hurdles between the two.
I've been working on a set of sleepy pop ups for the better part of two years (Ignore the first 14 pages... https://www.rx7club.com/group-buy-pr...033520/page15/) and I'm just crossing the finish line. Mind you, this is based of David Hayes lights which actually exist in real life - although we've taken a MUCH different approach to install. One of the tenants we had from the get go was to make this on par with OEM standards and allow it to be completely reversible. That in itself moves the bar MUCH higher, but I think produces a much higher quality part in the end.
All that said, I think I have a good framework and plenty I've learned along the way that I'd be more than happy to share. I might even have a stack of headlamp adjuster PCBs I had made that you would be more than welcome to play with. @LO7 (@reuleaux7 on IG) is also on here and I'm sure he can chime in on his challenges developing a one off for his car and any shortcuts he discovered.
Like anything, it has to start somewhere! Hopefully this will be out before 2022!
That first render looks AWESOME! I'm normally not a fan of hard lines (90 degree angles) on the FD - but it looks really good.
That said, and don't take this the wrong way - but it's a render. It doesn't and never existed. I don't even think you can buy individual 'jewel' LEDs (link me if I'm wrong), which means you're limited to retrofitting from a TLX (or GS or Prius or whatever), which means you're cutting down a series of 5 lamps to 3 (which I don't know is even possible), which means you're forced to design the kit around a modified lamp as opposed to a consistently produced raw good. Which at the end of the day means, you're making something that may or may not look like the render.
I get it... "we'll just 3D scan it, modifying it in CAD, and work out the details" sounds like a promising plan. But it's those pesky details that really bogs things down. Not to mention, is this going to be an OEM grade solution that people are going to pay hard earned money for and bolt in? Or just a cool DIY people can do? Does it need to look cool in Instagram photos from 10 feet away or does it have to make people ask "is that factory?" and perform really well at night. There is a very real and different set of hurdles between the two.
I've been working on a set of sleepy pop ups for the better part of two years (Ignore the first 14 pages... https://www.rx7club.com/group-buy-pr...033520/page15/) and I'm just crossing the finish line. Mind you, this is based of David Hayes lights which actually exist in real life - although we've taken a MUCH different approach to install. One of the tenants we had from the get go was to make this on par with OEM standards and allow it to be completely reversible. That in itself moves the bar MUCH higher, but I think produces a much higher quality part in the end.
All that said, I think I have a good framework and plenty I've learned along the way that I'd be more than happy to share. I might even have a stack of headlamp adjuster PCBs I had made that you would be more than welcome to play with. @LO7 (@reuleaux7 on IG) is also on here and I'm sure he can chime in on his challenges developing a one off for his car and any shortcuts he discovered.
Like anything, it has to start somewhere! Hopefully this will be out before 2022!
In all fairness, I do not know your background and you do not know mine but I appreciate the words of encouragement and willingness to offer information about what you've discovered these past two years. With that said, I have a background in fabrication and production, especially when it comes to converting digital designs into physical form with high levels of quality and durability. I own multiple 3D printers and have the equipment to design, mold, cast, and machine anything I want. So I am not niave about the design/production process for a one-off or the production of multiple pieces. Since I do not know youre background, I can only assume you have something similar to my own in your own right.
I have been following your progress along with everyone else and I foresee you hitting your deadline in the coming months, and selling them for $1k+. At the end of the day, it'll be very nice to have your product in the market, but for persons like myself, $1k+ seems a bit much for headlights. I make 6 figures so it's not a matter how not being able to afford it, but a perceived value (cost vs benefits). If there are those willing to purchase your product at that price, more power to ya and I hope you make tons of money doing it, I really do.
With that said, it was LO7 who gave me the idea of looking into an alternative solution that could be potentially hundreds of dollars less. Most people who offer solutions for a 'sleepy' headlight that functions like oem tend to focus on the mechanical aspect due to the pushrods and motors. By taking the headlight mechanism out of the equation for development it can save on numerous hours of development and production which can be spent elsewhere. By controlling voltage of the motor relays and setting up parameters of "if this, then that" into an arduino board, then I can customize the lift and lower aspect with the stroke of a keyboard rather than machine new parts. As it has been mentioned, the shaking of the light while driving may be a concern. Because of that concern, looking at having a different bump stop solution is the answer, at least on its face.
Which brings me to the next part: the lighting and shroud. The benefit of having multiple 3d printers with different types of mediums means I can prototype and make numerous changes with ease and cheap development costs. As far as lighting goes. You are absolutely correct in that there are no 'jewel' lights that are individually sold. I have no intention of breaking down headlights from a different car as it definitely increases the costs for the end result. I have found a few solutions for lighting, with one being an LED solution from Hella and the other being more similar to your design with projector lenses. Both have their benefits and drawbacks.
Right now, I'm simply I'm in the ideation phase, and gathering as much data as possible to fully understand the electronic side of the headlight system. I close on my new house on October 10th and after I've set up my shop again, I will look at buying the electronics and begin experimenting with the programming... using that fella in Sweden who used the same technique for his Miata as inspiration, I think that I will quickly be able to determine if my potential solution is viable or not without a considerable amount of time and cost.
In all fairness, I do not know your background and you do not know mine but I appreciate the words of encouragement and willingness to offer information about what you've discovered these past two years. With that said, I have a background in fabrication and production, especially when it comes to converting digital designs into physical form with high levels of quality and durability. I own multiple 3D printers and have the equipment to design, mold, cast, and machine anything I want. So I am not niave about the design/production process for a one-off or the production of multiple pieces. Since I do not know youre background, I can only assume you have something similar to my own in your own right.
I have been following your progress along with everyone else and I foresee you hitting your deadline in the coming months, and selling them for $1k+. At the end of the day, it'll be very nice to have your product in the market, but for persons like myself, $1k+ seems a bit much for headlights. I make 6 figures so it's not a matter how not being able to afford it, but a perceived value (cost vs benefits). If there are those willing to purchase your product at that price, more power to ya and I hope you make tons of money doing it, I really do.
With that said, it was LO7 who gave me the idea of looking into an alternative solution that could be potentially hundreds of dollars less. Most people who offer solutions for a 'sleepy' headlight that functions like oem tend to focus on the mechanical aspect due to the pushrods and motors. By taking the headlight mechanism out of the equation for development it can save on numerous hours of development and production which can be spent elsewhere. By controlling voltage of the motor relays and setting up parameters of "if this, then that" into an arduino board, then I can customize the lift and lower aspect with the stroke of a keyboard rather than machine new parts. As it has been mentioned, the shaking of the light while driving may be a concern. Because of that concern, looking at having a different bump stop solution is the answer, at least on its face.
Which brings me to the next part: the lighting and shroud. The benefit of having multiple 3d printers with different types of mediums means I can prototype and make numerous changes with ease and cheap development costs. As far as lighting goes. You are absolutely correct in that there are no 'jewel' lights that are individually sold. I have no intention of breaking down headlights from a different car as it definitely increases the costs for the end result. I have found a few solutions for lighting, with one being an LED solution from Hella and the other being more similar to your design with projector lenses. Both have their benefits and drawbacks.
Right now, I'm simply I'm in the ideation phase, and gathering as much data as possible to fully understand the electronic side of the headlight system. I close on my new house on October 10th and after I've set up my shop again, I will look at buying the electronics and begin experimenting with the programming... using that fella in Sweden who used the same technique for his Miata as inspiration, I think that I will quickly be able to determine if my potential solution is viable or not without a considerable amount of time and cost.
No need to submit a resume. Your background, my background. Your paycheck, my paycheck. It’s really fine whatever it is.
Id love to check out your portfolio of cool things you’ve made.
The big take away from my rant was: the render has individual jewels. Those don’t exist. If you can 3D print jewel LEDs - you have a big market. Otherwise, it’s not going to look like the render. Because renders are perfect and the real world is... different. But obviously, I don’t need to tell you that.
You might be used to an overly pretentious crowd on Facebook or Instagram or whatever. But I’d like to think there’s less of that here. Most people that have stuck around these cars for 20 years stay because love the platform. If it’s new and cool - I’m all for it.
Just an FYI, back when I had an FC I had a few friends with the "sleepy eye" controllers from Japan, like the Pivot unit. It had a dial and you could adjust how high up your headlights would pop up.
It was kind of hit and miss. Sometimes they would be just where you wanted, sometimes one would be higher than the other, sometimes one would be sleepy and one would cycle to full open or full closed, etc. I think the problem is trying to interrupt 2 relatively fast moving motors with different wiring lengths and different grounds/resistances, as well as different wear and tear on the 2 motors. Getting a controller to reliably do the lowered height every time will be a challenge to say the least.
Also, as stated, the stock motors have "stops" at full open and full closed that keep the headlights stable. Without being on the stops the headlights can jump and bounce when driving.
But, I dig how they look and I applaud any effort to make our FD's better and create new products!
The key is sourcing the light source. With what is available today in terms of prototype tools, the actual fabrication is not the issue.
But finding a proper set of lights, will make or break the product. Currently what i have seen available is not going to come close to the render, unless you dismantle an OEM headlight.
And it really does not matter if you solve the shroud, height or anything else perfect if you cant find some sexy light sources.
Did some digging around for lighting and despite many hours of searching for a lighting solution that can come close, here are the only options that I can find without making a custom LED lights:
Hella FF75 driving lights. These slim design lights house H7 bulbs which can be set up to have a dual brightness bulb. According to Hella's own data, the light thrown road is roughly 350 ft. for low beams; which is pretty standard for basic driving headlights according to their info. High beams obviously have further casting distance. Still on the fence about the overall look of these lenses although their size would allow for a very low profile look to the pop-ups.
The other option I have found is a xenon projector lenses that are in square housings and have that "Halo" look to them. This would be similar to all the other solutions that utilize two lights for the low and high beams. They are taller than the Hella lenses but still smaller than the oem square headlights. I'm not entirely convinced that this would be the right solution either although I think they'd look kinda neat.
I did do some digging about finding optic glass cubes to get that 'jeweled' headlight look that Acura has but I have concerns about the amount of light it can emit along with the overall effectiveness in the distance of having lighting behind optic glass.
I did reach out to Hot Water Labs about a sleepy eye kit they offered a while ago but it was a fixed headlight. They no long produce it, but it would have been a good example of a housing that could work. In either case. I will continue to do some digging. I close on my new house in few weeks and looking forward to having nice epoxied floors and tons of storage =)
The Rally Lights guys really know their stuff and would be able to direct you to the appropriate product. If you did not need a sealed beam, then I'd say use theretrofitsource.com.
A few observations for you: 1) for headlights, you need something that has a proper cutoff on it and something that throws light in the right pattern. I don't think either of the options you are considering do this.
2) The FF75 are reflector based units, and as such, they do not have a proper cutoff for the light source. That is why Hella lists them for use in "Rural, night driving," or "Foggy situations and poor visibility." So, if you plan on retrofitting them with LED bulbs, this will only exacerbate the poor lighting. 3) The Ronan units are projector based, but I would not trust them to be a reliable light source for your project, regardless of the "neat" factor. They are cheap Chinese units and I doubt the beam pattern will work for you.
Give the Rally Lights guys a call. They know all about what is needed for proper headlight beams and they can direct you to which products can use LEDs to achieve what you want to do.
Lastly, putting together a proper LED-based headlight setup is difficult. Take a look at what is used on my Audi. It's no easy feat:
09-09-19, 12:35 PM
Slim Pop-up headlight demand?
