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Yes really. only because a lot less were produced..
You said less produced which I interpret to infer a scarce commodity that is driving the price. Well in terms of production numbers relative to USDM FD's, R cars aren't at all scarce as they were the second most produced trim that is only rivaled by the Touring Manual cars.
Also It is well known in the car collector community that rarity does not equate to desirability. Just look at the PEP Auto cars, people aren't getting into bidding wars to get 1 of the 36 that were built. In fact, all Auto FDs (Base, PEP, or Touring) are at the bottom of the list when it came to production numbers.
I know that people complained about rust and respray (not original paint) but let's face it a 30K mile FDs is NOT a unicorn. Meaning, at the end of the day it is a driver's car, a low mileage one but a driver's car nonetheless. It really isn't a real contender to be kept in a climate controlled environment and only towed to shows and stuff (that spot is better served for cars like that montego FD that Rich owns). With that said, it really didn't surprise me that a red 93 with 30k miles sold for 1K more than a red 94 R car. I look at this logically, the 94 had 63% MORE miles on the odometer so if that doesn't negate the price for a more desirable year/trim I don't know what does...
Auto cars are irrelevant, the demand doesn't compare.
When you talk production u have to take it a step further especially in this case.. this was a r2 not a r1 (obviously). And this specific spec there was what.. less than 200 produced. Thats my point, nothing more nothing less. How many r2s in that spec in that condition will come up for sale again? I get miles and condition can trump spec but it was still surprising given the r2 was in good condition and mileage was less than 50k. Personally I thought the r2 would've got 60k and others that have commented are alluding to the same.
Auto cars are irrelevant, the demand doesn't compare.
yeah hence why I said:
Originally Posted by Montego
Also It is well known in the car collector community that rarity does not equate to desirability
So really the topic is availability coupled with desirability. Not availability alone and that was my point.
Originally Posted by MarcZ55
When you talk production u have to take it a step further especially in this case.. this was a r2 not a r1 (obviously). And this specific spec there was what.. less than 200 produced. Thats my point, nothing more nothing less. How many r2s in that spec in that condition will come up for sale again? I get miles and condition can trump spec but it was still surprising given the r2 was in good condition and mileage was less than 50k. Personally I thought the r2 would've got 60k and others that have commented are alluding to the same.
So taking account everything that you said how does it impact the price of R2s? Forget this auction, it's a one off and many factors contribute to the final price (but IMO it coincides with what I see) but classic car insurance has them at only a 3% price increase over the touring PEP (PEG) and 8% over the base models. Yep a measly 3%... I will say that even an 8% price differential between the R and the base is easily lost in the shuffle.
So how desirable is an R2? IMO the answer is very desirable because any way you look at it, the touring had close to half the miles of the R2 and it brought in pretty much the same money. At the same time, it isn't desirable enough that just because it is a 94 and/or R2 it automatically commands more money than a 93 car with close to half the mileage.
Originally Posted by Redbul
Other than the low production numbers, what makes the R2 different from an R1. Are they that material?
Material in the sense the R2s have the updates of the 94-95 cars. Such as textured interior, tach lines, passenger air bag, matching passenger seatbelts, ect). From an ideology perspective, (R cars being the sportier version) the R2's are a step down with the softer suspension (if we are being **** about it). But let's face it, that is irrelevant as these cars are over 25 years old and the struts are a wearable item.
I'm aware of the 3% difference on Hagertys values. You didn't have to go through the trouble to paste that data.
My perspective is from the desirability and performance enthusiast standpoint. R package cars are just in higher demand.
I understand this doesn't necessarily translate into higher values. I just didn't think that touring was going to beat out the r2. It was in good condition even with the higher mileage. All I'm saying is that was surprising to me it did.
BTW I have a touring FD, so I'm not here trying to make a case that R cars are that much better than a touring or base.
Other than the low production numbers, what makes the R2 different from an R1. Are they that material?
The difference is the R2 has an ugly dash design with the passenger airbag and is about 30 lbs. heavier. : p
Half joking, there is more to it than that, there are a bunch of small improvements with the R2 that people like, though a few weirdos like myself do prefer the R1.
We are all cursed with decades of knowledge about these cars. As a result, we are being far too rational when it comes to which car sells for what price.
Ultimately, demand for the FD is so high that folks will pay top dollar for any decent example with low miles, almost regardless of trim. I don’t think most people care about trim levels outside of insiders (us) and the collector insurance folks.
Yeah, Brian Lang on Page 155 of his book remarks that the R-1 was renamed the R-2 in 1994 and had a slightly softer ride, the front strut bar, and Pirelli P-zero Tires otherwise carrying over the r-1 features. I suppose the R-2 would also have the other upgrades that the 94 cars got. I would contend that the 1994 upgrades should contribute more to a value upgrade than the essentially bolt-on other features unique to R-2. What is today's cost of softer springs, a front strut bar and p-zero tires? $1200? The R-2 package in its day cost $2000 more (B. Lang).
In 1994 a Type R-II was introduced in Japan. It had bins instead of the seats Japanese models had. it seems the bins tradition, in Japan, was carried on in the RZ and Spirit R models (The first Bathurst had them as well - but not as a regular production model.)
Yeah, Brian Lang on Page 155 of his book remarks that the R-1 was renamed the R-2 in 1994 and had a slightly softer ride, the front strut bar, and Pirelli P-zero Tires otherwise carrying over the r-1 features. I suppose the R-2 would also have the other upgrades that the 94 cars got. I would contend that the 1994 upgrades should contribute more to a value upgrade than the essentially bolt-on other features unique to R-2. What is today's cost of softer springs, a front strut bar and p-zero tires? $1200? The R-2 package in its day cost $2000 more (B. Lang).
In 1994 a Type R-II was introduced in Japan. It had bins instead of the seats Japanese models had. it seems the bins tradition, in Japan, was carried on in the RZ and Spirit R models (The first Bathurst had them as well - but not as a regular production model.)
What point are you trying to make. An R model was well worth an extra $2k at the time if you wanted an r model. Also had suede-ish seats. Remember when they were new there were not many easy mods available. And of course an R2 benefits from all the 94 upgrades vs an R1.
Just working toward a better understanding of the potential for price differentials between the different years and makes.
Sounds to me that the R-2 indeed has a lot going for it.
But I would contend that maybe the apparent price anomalies may be driven by LHD potentially being undervalued compared to the rapidly changing (increasing) world price for FD overall.
(Or we are seeing the frothing at the top of an overbought market?)
[Just visited the new Fujiwara Tofu Shop and met with the Taiwanese kids that opened it. They are actively converting a Canadian Montego Blue 1993 LHD to the Yellow Red Suns FD.
Another local LHD disappearing into the initial D fantasy world.]
[Half price Tofu if you park your FD in front of the shop!]
Half price Tofu Month - I recommend the deep fried spicy tofu chunks!
Yeah, Brian Lang on Page 155 of his book remarks that the R-1 was renamed the R-2 in 1994 and had a slightly softer ride, the front strut bar, and Pirelli P-zero Tires otherwise carrying over the r-1 features. I suppose the R-2 would also have the other upgrades that the 94 cars got. I would contend that the 1994 upgrades should contribute more to a value upgrade than the essentially bolt-on other features unique to R-2. What is today's cost of softer springs, a front strut bar and p-zero tires? $1200? The R-2 package in its day cost $2000 more (B. Lang).
In 1994 a Type R-II was introduced in Japan. It had bins instead of the seats Japanese models had. it seems the bins tradition, in Japan, was carried on in the RZ and Spirit R models (The first Bathurst had them as well - but not as a regular production model.)
If you remember back to when the R1 originally came out and all the reviews of it, it was considered way too hard-core for a street offering. Way too race-car stiff. It wasn't really or at least a lot of people who were attracted to the car back then and bought them back then didn't think so. Most of the magazine reviews noted how stiff and race-car-like they were. Mazda noticed this and so backed the R1 away from. what they intended with the softer R2. Some collectors will value the R1`'s more, because they are really what the original designers intended. I bought a base model that went right to PFS for even stiffer shocks and springs. Never realizing I was buying a collector car.
Remember this guy? New Owner told prior owner he was going to take it back to stock. But the shop quoted $17,000. So he decided to trade in, and look to buy a more-close-to-stock version. (I say just repaint the black parts to red and you have a pretty nice car.)
This is awesome. A Supra on BaT went to $130k within 4 hours today. 7 days left.
I'm good if FDs just do half that haha.
Come to Thailand, FDs are $75k+ here now. A year ago they were just starting to rise from $45k for a nice one. And all the body kits are for sale, everyone going 99 spec. It's sad in a way, big shift away from the tuner look that has dominated the scene for the last 20 years
10-28-21, 01:02 PM
Vancouver, FD Twilight Zone
