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Wondering you guys thoughts on my upcoming set up I’ve been building this car for years & it finally looks like it’ll come to life real soon .. my power goals from the beginning was to get in the 5-550hp range but the the talk has always been that with a 35r it’ll be close to impossible or extremely hard compared to others like gt40 td61 366 EFRS & so on ... but this is what I got and what I’ve payed a lot of money for brand new from the manufacturers so I need to use it..so what are your thoughts using the following combination e85+meth/water on the 35r .82 T4 1.06 to get in the 500s ??
I am one that believes tuned correctly you can use e85 together with Some combination of water/meth & you will get more power gains rather than using one or the other alone
car mods:
streetport 13b (93)
radium engineering surge tank fuel rail & fuel system
4 2600 ID injectors
-8 & -10 lines
turbosmart 2000 fpr
2 walbro Hellcat 525 & 1 more for surge tank (so 3 525)
Haltech flexfuel sensor
haltech platinum 1000 ecu
kaaz superQ 1.5
60 mm tial open WG
snow performance meth/water kit
3 or 4 inch thick Garrett intercooler
3” down pipe hks hi power exhaust
stock gears & transmission
*ignition.. I haven’t decided yet since the hks twin power is discontinued not sure if I want to buy one used for 3-400 when I can buy ign1 for an extra 400 bucks so I’ll probably go with ign1A ignition kit
i am also thinking about a small nitrous shot 50-75hp for the occasional top end help...this isn’t a track car it’s mostly for the streets but I will be taking it to the track once or twice
I have seen other 500hp gt35r but no true dyno graphs for them & the ones I have seen barely reach the 500 mark .. 496 480 427 etc
I'm assuming you mean RWHP right? Because if you talking about crank HP then the GT35R can easily get you to 500hp.
Now I am only going off memory but since no one has replied I'll give it a shot. Anyway from what I remember the issue with the GT35R is that it runs out of steam at around 22 psi, which is close to the 500RWHP mark (obviously depending on port work, types of mods, ect). So even though you can add E85 and AI, the turbo is your limiting factor here. Now as far as nitrous is concerned, that would get you there but you better have an awesome tuner and a spare engine. There is a reason why we don't really use N20 it's just too close to the limit and when anything goes wrong... boom.
Take this as a grain of salt. I'm only speaking from what I read here and have no practical experience past 17 psi on a GT35R.
As an FYI- the ign1A does not allow you to use cruise control.
I'm assuming you mean RWHP right? Because if you talking about crank HP then the GT35R can easily get you to 500hp.
Now I am only going off memory but since no one has replied I'll give it a shot. Anyway from what I remember the issue with the GT35R is that it runs out of steam at around 22 psi, which is close to the 500RWHP mark (obviously depending on port work, types of mods, ect). So even though you can add E85 and AI, the turbo is your limiting factor here. Now as far as nitrous is concerned, that would get you there but you better have an awesome tuner and a spare engine. There is a reason why we don't really use N20 it's just too close to the limit and when anything goes wrong... boom.
Take this as a grain of salt. I'm only speaking from what I read here and have no practical experience past 17 psi on a GT35R.
As an FYI- the ign1A does not allow you to use cruise control.
thanks for the response ... and yes rwhp... I’m hoping that the combination of ethanol & meth will get me there. That it will either allow me to run a higher boost pressure or allow for more horsepower under the normal boost pressure ranges or both.... so let’s say a max psi of 22 will get me 490 rwhp with 93 pump I’m counting on the benefits of e85 & AI to get me an extra 50-60 hp at the same psi (of course with fail safes in place for the AI)
the only thing is that I haven’t seen much info on our cars using both to achieve power gains.. I have however seen & read of other cars achieving this corvettes, cadillacs , gtrs, Supras, wrx etc.
for example look at this video from a gtr on stock turbos & psi being dynod using 91/AI & e85/AI. it made 62hp more on e85/AI than it did just on 91 pump gas alone (stock) & 47 hp more than 91 with meth
but compared to this other guy: https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo...-5-psi-672972/ streetported to4z on pump 94 with AI making 517 at 26.5psi... 520 at 23 psi with e85 & AI doesn’t sound that impressive or worth the hassle & cost for an ethanol upgrade for the wagon, BUT! the bridgeported 13b motor is from a series 4 2nd gen rx7 so Im sure that plays a factor & when you think of it like that, that’s VERY impressive!.. so imagine if the fd With the to4z was on e85 & AI rather than 94 & AI. How much more horsepower over 517 would he had made at 26.5 lbs? Applying the gtr videos test ..35-40 more ?(less than 47 cause the FD was using 94 oct & the gtr was on 91)
*the wagon sold the motor & claimed It was capable of 360kw (482hp) @24psi On pump with meth and NO E85 which makes sense once e85 is added it’ll increase by 38hp(520hp) (Which is 8% of The HP on pump and AI) @23psi! ..See ad below for motor. (Adding 8% of the HP pump & AI made on the 517hp FD is +41hp = 558hp if he would add e85)
This guy here made 511 he says on 24psi On the 35r T3 maxing it out & I guess they lowered it to 496 at 21 psi which he shows a graph for to not overwork the turbo ...I think on pump gas but I’m not sure https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo...3-dyno-746924/
It’s like the real question is will I be able to reach, hold and maintain 520–535hp? Maybe even 550? & how many others can benefit as well from their current set ups by adding either of the two if they already have one (E85 or AI)
Also a good E85/AI read is this article where they test the best fuels for HP gains that I found really interesting & adds to the theory of e85+AI.. they found that by using both you can increase horsepower 10%-12% from premium Pump fuel The gtr above made 11.5% more horsepower. With that rule of thumb my gt35r 490rwhp fd @ 22 psi on 93 oct would be 546rwhp on e85+AI 🤔🤔
LINKS BELOW :
As far as the nitrous thing, I am not too educated on it so those are just thoughts as of now if I’m able to run a safe shot of nitrous without worrying about blowing the motor to pieces I’ll definitely consider it more but I’ll need help from experts on it. I did however find a great write up on it that gave me positive hopes on it check it out
anyways ultimately I’ll have to finish this & put it on the dyno to see how it’s going work with the ethanol/AI .. I’ll definitely post results When done...
I think it’s an interesting topic somewhat...maybe cause it’s my car lol... if I would see more of our cars running both I would feel even more confident.
Last edited by inouf33lm3; 11-18-20 at 05:17 PM.
Reason: Misspelled words
& as far as the ign1A coils not allowing cruise control to work that’s fine from where this project began I don’t think I ever had that option anyways lol... plus when I’m driving it the last thing I’m thinking of is cruise control lol
Most dynos are inflated bullshit. Why are you chasing a number? If you're close, you're there. Nitrous mostly doesn't go on rotaries.
im not chasing a number I’m chasing a performance goal while I maximize and optimize my combination of parts and do it safely ...while at the same time trying to spread more information on running two fuels (E85+AI) instead of choosing one or the other like most of us are doing like you can’t do both & achieve more performance gains (exemptions are those who don’t have e85 available to them)
this dyno graph below is from the rx7store.net from a gt35r showing that the 35r on pump gas @15.5 psi makes 440rwhp on a streetported motor... according to research and testing if you ran both E85+AI you will add a minimum of 10% so +44hp so you can achieve 484 rwhp @15.5 psi ...not only will you add to hp gains your gaining turbo efficiency because it’s working at normal pressures while achieving more horsepower might even expand the life of your turbo.Were talking about the difference between 490rwhp & 540rwhp at the same boost levels with the same turbos that’s a Big difference.
as far as nitrous goes I just don’t think anyone has mastered setting it up on rotary cars & those who have aren’t sharing the information like I said before that’s just a thought right now & I would like opinions from our community from those who have knowledge on it ... I’m not actively trying to install a kit I’m fine with what I have especially if I can get it working together.. it’s really for discussion & education purposes... if “it’s not for rotaries” then say why & make it make sense with an explanation or an intelligent theory ..have you ever done it & blew an engine?
Maybe there IS a cabal guarding the secrets for using nitrous on a rotary. If so they’ve done a good job over the last couple decades I’ve been paying attention. I’ve only heard of it actually being used for drag strip cars but granted it never really interested me. So maybe I wasn’t paying close enough attention. And I can’t remember now if Racing Beat used it on the salt flats car or not.
More likely it’s been tried and passed on for the reasons Montego mentioned. But maybe you’re the one that can do it and get usable lasting and reliable power on a street rotary...without chasing a number of course.
As for the educational purpose, I just searched using the term “Nitrous” and got 2 pages of threads. And that was just in 3rd Gen tech and titles only. There’s also the Race car tech, Rotary tech and Single turbo tech sections.
Without doing the calculations, I think you have more than enough fuel even on pump plus AI to hit your target if your turbo wasn't the limiting factor. If you are going to spend $500-800 on a NOS kit, I would honestly ditch that and swap the turbo for one that isn't as limiting. You could get something like a BW S300 SXE 62-76 for $850 which would easily support your goal and not mess with NOS at all.
There are several kits out there that mount the IGN-1A coils to the frame below the steering column. Sakebomb's rhd frame mount, an ebay kit sold by a forum member, and others I've seen.
Myself I went from Sakebomb's cruise location mount to their rhd frame mount, the installation is more difficult and routing the harness is of key importance but IT FITS and clears the column. This location provides for much shorter spark plug wires and allows the cruise to be maintained.
Time will tell if being down there is detrimental to the coils due to water, dirt, etc.
Guys, Nitrous was just a thought seeing if anyone had more specific info on why we can or can’t ..it is 2020 maybe the technology is different maybe someone found something I doubt I’ll be the guinea pig lol
i really wanna concentrate the convo on running BOTH e85 + meth/water injection for our cars anybody has tips or suggestions? Meth/water ratio? How many have tried or thought of it?
Some opinions say it’s redundant and pointless some say it works from what I’ve researched and I’ve gotten a lot of mixed reviews ...But I believe it works not from any experience but because of the science but there isn’t any threads or post on merging the two from anyone let alone show any comparisons ... people are always choosing between the two
i feel like if your running e85 using meth is a great upgrade theoretically ... if you can’t Achieve power gains or are losing power your injection Jets are too big or may be spraying too much meth or water... but Im not a tuner or a car mechanic 🤷🏽♂️
Without doing the calculations, I think you have more than enough fuel even on pump plus AI to hit your target if your turbo wasn't the limiting factor. If you are going to spend $500-800 on a NOS kit, I would honestly ditch that and swap the turbo for one that isn't as limiting. You could get something like a BW S300 SXE 62-76 for $850 which would easily support your goal and not mess with NOS at all.
yeah Im planning to ride the 35r until it explodes then we’ll go bigger or change the set up.. I was just curious about it ..but I am trying to maximize what I do have so what are your thoughts on e85 with AI?
yeah Im planning to ride the 35r until it explodes then we’ll go bigger or change the set up.. I was just curious about it ..but I am trying to maximize what I do have so what are your thoughts on e85 with AI?
From what I have read and you can search out the threads, but there are 2 completely different schools of though on E85 vs pump and AI. Turblown and other members are pro E85 for its combustion properties and ability to run higher boost levels. On the opposing side you have others such as Mr. Coleman that has turn down motors that have used E85 with significant wear to the internals, seals and a black gunk that develops inside the motors. Maybe if you plan to buy E85 direct in 55 gal drums, this might mitigate and inconsistency in E85 pump blends as what you get from there greatly varies.
Howard Coleman has a great fuel calculator and with AI I dont see you needing to run E85 especially with the amount of injector you have. Pump and meth/water should be able to run 22psi if that is in fact your turbos max efficiency range. I did so in 2000 with a T78 @ 20psi, 93 pump and alky injection. My limiting factor was my injectors(850 primary and 2200 secondary's). I did have a half bridge motor but your build and fuel look nicer than mine did back then. I ended up hitting 496rwp, which admittingly was frustrating to not see 500rwp. We were using a dynapack chassis dyno verses a mustang, so I am confident on a different dyno I would show a lot higher.
not rotary but here they test e85 (914whp) and e85+water meth (gain of 50whp to 964whp) on a boosted coyote v8 so the benefit can be there when tuned for it.
not rotary but here they test e85 (914whp) and e85+water meth (gain of 50whp to 964whp) on a boosted coyote v8 so the benefit can be there when tuned for it.
From what I have read and you can search out the threads, but there are 2 completely different schools of though on E85 vs pump and AI. Turblown and other members are pro E85 for its combustion properties and ability to run higher boost levels. On the opposing side you have others such as Mr. Coleman that has turn down motors that have used E85 with significant wear to the internals, seals and a black gunk that develops inside the motors. Maybe if you plan to buy E85 direct in 55 gal drums, this might mitigate and inconsistency in E85 pump blends as what you get from there greatly varies.
Howard Coleman has a great fuel calculator and with AI I dont see you needing to run E85 especially with the amount of injector you have. Pump and meth/water should be able to run 22psi if that is in fact your turbos max efficiency range. I did so in 2000 with a T78 @ 20psi, 93 pump and alky injection. My limiting factor was my injectors(850 primary and 2200 secondary's). I did have a half bridge motor but your build and fuel look nicer than mine did back then. I ended up hitting 496rwp, which admittingly was frustrating to not see 500rwp. We were using a dynapack chassis dyno verses a mustang, so I am confident on a different dyno I would show a lot higher.
great info ... I am aware of the gunk that builds up in there over time but I do think that using the right pre mix like redline could help in that maintenance as well as the use of the meth/water injection some have said that it steam cleans engines well. Another reason they say the use of AI with E85 is good is because it increases the gasoline’s octane in the E85 blend specially because it may vary from pump to pump.
i plan to run more often on 93oct+AI because of the uncertainty of the gunk or other negative things that may be occurring inside my motor ...but I do plan on having a e85+AI map for times I want to let it loose and have a little more fun ..thank god for a flex fuel sensor.
Mixing two different alcohol based fuels is over complicating this setup. I would pick one or the other as they will both get you the same result and using both gives marginal increases from what I've seen in different tests posted on water meth pages. As for using the 35r, I would recommend going with a different turbo like the Borg s362 or s366 as the 35r will most likely run out of breath pushing it like that. Keeping it simple should be the goal as refilling on nitrous or water meth can be a nuisance at times.
Mixing two different alcohol based fuels is over complicating this setup. I would pick one or the other as they will both get you the same result and using both gives marginal increases from what I've seen in different tests posted on water meth pages. As for using the 35r, I would recommend going with a different turbo like the Borg s362 or s366 as the 35r will most likely run out of breath pushing it like that. Keeping it simple should be the goal as refilling on nitrous or water meth can be a nuisance at times.
yeah but problem is that i already had the AI while pushing like 7 pounds of boost For couple years with a stock fuel system only a walbro 255 now Im getting the entire fuel system done & going flexfuel i don’t wanna just throw away the AI kit especially if I can use it... through research I’ve found that it’s an actual benefit to an e85 system so why not use it if it’s already installed on the car
For those of us that aren't racers we do not maximize our set up for HP. Quite the opposite really as we tend to sacrifice HP for security. I've known some people that do not tune for water/AI, they only use it to cool the intake charge and that costs them HP. But they are safer.
I know that we have moved on from the nitrous but I wanted to say that it really complicates things on turbo rotaries, mainly due to our engines inability to withstand lean conditions.
So you are running let say the GT35R at 22 psi, have AI, E85 and in order to squeeze out every once of HP you are running an aggressive timing. Right off the bat you are on shaky ground. If the AI or fuel system develops a minor delivery issue (slightly clogged nozzle, weak pump, bad gas ect), the result won't be good as there is no room for error. On top of that, if you introduce N2O the rule of thumb is to retard the timing 1 degree for every 25 shot so you can see how that adds to the complexity. But that is only a rule of thumb so it really is up to your tuner to make that determination. Never mind that you have to have this working under different conditions as this is a street car. Meaning changes in altitude and temperature have to be accounted for and that is why I said you better have a good tuner and a spare engine. It's just not an easy thing to accomplish.
Can you make your setup work for 500+RWHP? Definitely. But the real question can you make it work for the long run on a street car?
On a side note: This is the highest HP graph that I've seen for a GT35R @ 15lbs. Most of us aim for 400RWHP at that boost level:
Originally Posted by inouf33lm3
this dyno graph below is from the rx7store.net from a gt35r showing that the 35r on pump gas @15.5 psi makes 440rwhp on a streetported motor...
For those of us that aren't racers we do not maximize our set up for HP. Quite the opposite really as we tend to sacrifice HP for security. I've known some people that do not tune for water/AI, they only use it to cool the intake charge and that costs them HP. But they are safer.
I know that we have moved on from the nitrous but I wanted to say that it really complicates things on turbo rotaries, mainly due to our engines inability to withstand lean conditions.
So you are running let say the GT35R at 22 psi, have AI, E85 and in order to squeeze out every once of HP you are running an aggressive timing. Right off the bat you are on shaky ground. If the AI or fuel system develops a minor delivery issue (slightly clogged nozzle, weak pump, bad gas ect), the result won't be good as there is no room for error. On top of that, if you introduce N2O the rule of thumb is to retard the timing 1 degree for every 25 shot so you can see how that adds to the complexity. But that is only a rule of thumb so it really is up to your tuner to make that determination. Never mind that you have to have this working under different conditions as this is a street car. Meaning changes in altitude and temperature have to be accounted for and that is why I said you better have a good tuner and a spare engine. It's just not an easy thing to accomplish.
Can you make your setup work for 500+RWHP? Definitely. But the real question can you make it work for the long run on a street car?
On a side note: This is the highest HP graph that I've seen for a GT35R @ 15lbs. Most of us aim for 400RWHP at that boost level:
i think @22 psi on e85 I’ll hit about 500 even I also think adding the AI will allow those 22psi to be 520-530 allowing me to turn the boost down even further to maybe 20-21 psi for a good 515ish on e85+AI... if a pump or jet nozzle clogs I believe the fail safe will make the proper adjustments & since I’ll be spraying post turbo It’s not like I’ll be boosting higher than normal because of the AI I’m actually boosting normal pressure so I’ll be safe from detonation ..if I was using AI pre turbo I would definitely be worried of a mishap & now my motor blew because I overboosted with no protection
yeah but problem is that i already had the AI while pushing like 7 pounds of boost For couple years with a stock fuel system only a walbro 255 now Im getting the entire fuel system done & going flexfuel i don’t wanna just throw away the AI kit especially if I can use it... through research I’ve found that it’s an actual benefit to an e85 system so why not use it if it’s already installed on the car
Just out of curiosity why the power goal of 500-550RWHP and do you have any experience with 400+RWHP FD's? The only reason that I ask is because of the above statement.
Just out of curiosity why the power goal of 500-550RWHP and do you have any experience with 400+RWHP FD's? The only reason that I ask is because of the above statement.
I had a 420 hp e46 bmw and 390-400 hp 2nd gen both pump93But it didn’t have close to a set up like this it had an eBay turbo from the guy I bought it from... the fd Ive been building on the side since 2009 Things weren’t going as well as I would’ve like them to so i couldn’t finish It from the shell i brought it back from I just had brand new parts and a built motor & a painted car ... the car was on 7 pounds because we were braking the motor in .. This is my first fd (I’ve had 2) That was suppose to achieve those numbers. So do I have experience in a500 hp fd? No but I’ve driven a few fast cars before.. this is definitely my first time dealing with e85 tho... the power goal is to make sure the car is capable of reaching & maintaining it safely after all the money that has been invested ... with the capabilities of those number I’ll be busy for a while before I’ll want to change the setup but I don’t want to stress the parts out attempting to achieve them
I had a 420 hp e46 bmw and 390-400 hp 2nd gen both pump93But it didn’t have close to a set up like this it had an eBay turbo from the guy I bought it from... the fd Ive been building on the side since 2009 Things weren’t going as well as I would’ve like them to so i couldn’t finish It from the shell i brought it back from I just had brand new parts and a built motor & a painted car ... the car was on 7 pounds because we were braking the motor in .. This is my first fd (I’ve had 2) That was suppose to achieve those numbers. So do I have experience in a500 hp fd? No but I’ve driven a few fast cars before.. this is definitely my first time dealing with e85 tho... the power goal is to make sure the car is capable of reaching & maintaining it safely after all the money that has been invested ... with the capabilities of those number I’ll be busy for a while before I’ll want to change the setup but I don’t want to stress the parts out attempting to achieve them
Thank you for answering. In reality a 400RWHP FD is nothing to sneeze at due to the weight factor (but the 2nd gen fits the bill). As such, most other cars with similar HP numbers just don't compare. To put it into perspective, a 400RWHP has a power to weight ratio similar to a stock hellcat. Not bad if you think about it.
Anyway I was just curious as to why the HP goal because I have a GT35R FD that I conservatively keep the boost at 15lbs (400RWHP) and that is plenty for me as IMO it gets pretty nutty after that. I say conservatively because I have enough fuel to max out that turbo with my 1000CC/2000CC injectors, supra pump, FPR, tune, ect. It's all there just waiting for me to up the boost.
I don't have any insider info, but it sounds like Kyle Mohan Racing (affiliated with Mazdatrix) has run various setups in his 20B-powered drift cars, including gas+water injection, E85 and also E85 plus nitrous on his 20B-powered drift cars. I doubt he is on these forums much, but it might be worth reaching out to him to get his opinion.
11-17-20, 07:13 AM
