Yup. It costs a million pounds now to get a car with a smooth, uncluttered design like the FDs.

 

Gordon is the man. Alas, we are mere peasants. I don’t have 1.37mil kicking around to be replacing anything. Let alone a vehicle.

As it stands right now, available to the common folk, the only ones that really stand out would be the Supra or the “new” Z. Of which of the 2, I would probably choose the Z. At least we know that platform lasts! I’m not entirely convinced about the new Supra. BMW vehicles are not known for their reliability.

I think it’s safe to say I’m more than happy to have both my vehicles. Not looking to replacing anything anymore. All these modern vehicles have too many electronic “aids” for it to be truly enjoyable. I keep looking back at all the great vehicles of the 90’s and early 00’s.

Short of winning the big time lottery, I’ll quietly admire from a distance all those who are able to afford million dollar+ vehicles.

 

The new Supra is hideous. The show car, while not "pretty", at least looked good, but they completely hosed the proportions and now it looks like the plush toy version. The Z, I'll hold my opinion till I see one in the flesh, but that front looks like they forgot to include a radiator opening, so somebody with a ruler and an X-Acto knife just quickly cut a square opening in it. Like it was going to be electric like a Tesla and didn't need it, and at the last minute switched to gas.

It's not just in the "real" car ranks. Gordon Murray calls it out among the supercar ranks too, nothing is really pretty with classic shapes, its all edges, anger, and outrageousness.

 

Yes, the concept of the supposedly Supra was fantastic. Great proportions and it had a stance that felt ready to pounce. The production version though… it has vent openings for the hell of it?!

The Z reminds me so much of the 80’s. I think it’ll present itself pretty well in the flesh. I hear you though. Best to wait and see what it appears in real life.

Yep, Gordon called them all out. He’s got all the right too as well.. gotta remember these are companies that have been around for awhile now. They ultimately have to serve a board of directors and what not. They have to make vehicles that will sell. A few marquees rely on their pedigree. Others just have to make due.
Not to mention all these modern vehicles have to meet crazy government standards and crash worthiness. It’s extremely tough to create a vehicle nowadays without it looking similar to another one from another manufacturer.
all that said, I really do admire the T33 approach. It’s got some great curves.

 

I love that the T33 is "full federal".... it just proves everyone else isn't trying very hard. Obviously the materials and construction and low volume drive up the price, but good design doesn't cost really anymore than shitty design. If it were mostly metal and plastic, 500lbs heavier, and had a 500hp LSX, it would still be a great car and miles ahead of what others are building.

 

Sounds like a C8 Corvette... the upcoming Z06 or whatever they end up calling it might fix some of the problems with the current C8. The 5.5L LT6 C8.R-derived flat-plane V8 engine looks promising.

The base C8 is a good value for a near-exotic overall (if you can wait for one and you can afford dealer markup), just not my cup of tea with the auto trans, 3,500 lb+ curb weight and styling.

I think the Nissan Z will take a few years to reach its potential, just as the gasoline era is ending. It's possible the price will go up and up as the years go on.

The Infiniti Q60 is a reference for the Z's roots... it's porkier with luxury equipment and 2 rear seats, but that engine has been sold since the 2014 model year (on automatic transmissions and with RWD and AWD variants).

I hope the increased competition will prompt Mazda to increase the MX-5's engine power. Because of their decreasing sales, I think it makes sense to focus on the MX-5 as their main sports car project – perhaps they'll consider putting their new inline-6 design into the MX-5. The 2.5L Skyactiv I4 doesn't make any more power than the MX-5 2.0L engine.

Regarding the Skyactiv-X engine, Wikipedia writes: "Revealed June 5, 2019, the output is 132 kW (177 hp) and 224 N⋅m (165 lbf⋅ft)."

You can understand why Mazda realized they needed a more competitive engine in the North American market and why they're engaging in serious development of electric cars now.

 

The T33 is waaaayyyy outside of the criteria for potential replacements from the pricing standpoint alone...I'd buy a 911 Turbo twice before I even considered that. The C8 Z06 looks very promising, but the potential mark up has me pessimistic about it tbh. I'll stick with my RX-8 and my FD for the time being.

 

I may be in the minority, but I'm not a fan of the C8s looks.

And its bigger and 1000 lbs heavier.

 

I watched that entire video and was like...... I'd actually own this car. Was interested, then the pricing was discussed at the end. Quickly realized, I'll probably never own this car

As modified FD owners, we're damn spoiled. New Supra, New Z, even new Corvette...... it's all bullshit IMO.

 

For the 3/4 view here
this screams C5 Z06 with more rounded rear fenders along with a TVR-ish/ Porsche front end. I expect a bit more in the looks department for a million and a half.

The new Z is butt ugly;rather than evolving the Z32 and improving newer generation Z's looks they instead regressed. Its porker weight is expected as it's built on a sedan/CUV platform which not only makes it not a FD replacement, but it disqualifies this one from being labeled a sports car (by our standards, not by the sheep who stamp anything with 2 doors a "sports car").

 

How about an Alpina A110? Light, turbo, and Gordon Murray owns one.

Sorry if you're in the USA, just another car you cannot have.

 

We can't get the Alpinas here, unfortunately. The Alpina A110's main competitor, the Alfa Romeo 4C, didn't sell well here. Most likely due to the lack of an exotic engine, high price, and its impracticality as a car... the Porsche Cayman/Boxster and even the Lotus Evora were better suited as purist sports cars on North American roads.

MisterX is right... ideally, a sports car should be developed on its own platform. With current manufacturing realities, though, that is rare for anyone other than specialist manufacturers like Porsche or flagship products like the Corvette and Ford GT.

 

The 4C has an exotic engine, just not in the traditional sense of large displacement. The i4 is proving to hold extra boost well. Carbon tub, great looking design. Looks a lot more expensive than it is. And they don't sound like a normal 4.

 

they do look great, and sound great, but by the time it got to the USA, it was heavier than,

wait for it...


a Miata.

 

And following that Fiat 1.7L turbo... the newest incarnation of the engine is the 1.3L turbo FireFly engine at 237 hp / 199 lb-ft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Global_Small_Engine

It's slated to be inside the upcoming Alfa Romeo Tonale PHEV crossover vehicle: https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...nale-spy-shots

Definitely not a sports car.

 

Here’s the thing with those mid engine vehicles. They don’t have the engine pointed in the right direction. You can tell all they did was move the fwd layout of a sedan or something and swapped it around a full 180. A main reason why I don’t really consider (or I should say, prefer) those type of mid engine vehicles. Unfortunately there are a lot of vehicles that fall into that category. But there are exceptions.

Since I would no way have that type of cash ever, the T33 is a beaut. However, I would still want the T50.

in the realm of roughly affordable vehicles, I would still take the C8 Z06. Yes, it’ll probably weigh about 3600lbs (she’s a bit on the hefty side), but if you want to get something lighter and equally exotic you’ll have to spend 2-3 times as much. C’est la vie.

Alas, I love my FD. She’ll always be with me.

 

And in other news, some BMW sacrilege(?) – a new-school kustom kar – watch the video for details:

 

everything weighs more than a Miata. In fact, I'm not sure there's another sports car for sale that weighs less than a Miata.. anything relatively new made in the last few years*

​​​​

 

that is the simple inexpensive way to make a mid engine car, i'm not sure who did it first but the Fiat X19 and Lancia Scorpion both just are the FWD drivetrains in the back and the front is the front with hubs that don't need a CV shaft.
i think the X19 is late 60's?

the other car with the transverse engine is the 308/328/348 Ferrari, although that one is packaged with the transmission between the crankcase and the exhaust, so its a really efficient layout. no relation to any FWD car.
308 engine/trans/diff


here is a more typical longitudinal setup, obviously the V12 is bigger than the v8, but the output shaft is the red arrow!

 

Miura also has a transverse layout

 

A friend of mine was a Fiat X1/9 aficionado... too bad they basically stopped development in 1982 (although they continued manufacturing until 1989). Technology caught up to them by then and the Pontiac Fiero and Toyota MR2 made the Fiat/Bertone X/19 obsolete.

The Ferrari 348 had a longitudinal engine and a transverse gearbox, like the Mondial and all the V8 mid-engined Ferraris that followed.

To me, the Mazda MX-5 RF is one of the best sports cars in 2022. It has a curb weight of about 2,500 lbs, just a little above the soft top's (2,405 lbs) and it has a different suspension tuning. Sure, I'd like more power, but the light weight allows you to brake later and get on the throttle earlier in turns on the street or track. The soft top has better side and rear visibility, I think, but the RF looks better.

The Toyota GR86 / Subaru BRZ are about 2,800 lbs. Their new engines are better than the old ones, but they're still designed as entry-level sports cars.

The Chevrolet Camaro LT1 is the next step up, in both power and weight. I'd pick it over the Mustang since it's a little lighter and it's said to drive better at high speed.

 

How did all of these exotic cars get in the thread? I'll admit that the FD is great, but it is no Ferrari, really not even on the same level as a Porsche. The Nissan 400Z and the Supra are what would be a modern day competitor to a new Rx-7. Look at Japanese sports cars of the past. They have always been a cheap, reliable copies of expensive European sports cars. The Datsun 240z looked kinda like a Jaguar. The FC Rx-7 looked like a Porsche. The Miata even was supposed to be a reliable alternative to owning a British roadster.

I am also surprised that so many people like the Zupra over the 400z. When the Zupra came out I thought it looked ugly in the pictures, but I saw one in person and was impressed. It has a very nice and modern vibe. It still blows my mind that someone would choose it over a Z4 though. It would annoy me to spend that kind of money on a "new" car and have it sound like and drive like an old car that has been on the market for years. No manual option and only available in hardtop. Also, you are buying from a Toyota dealership instead of BMW dealership, which I would think, would give you a much worse buying and maintenance experience. Maybe I am missing something because I have never liked that car, but it just seems like you are compromising a lot to own a "SUPRA."

The Z like the Supra I will withhold judgement until I see it in person (even though the front end looks a little dorky). I like that it combines the looks of the Z32 and Z33, both cars which I have a little bit of nostalgia for, especially the Z33. This car has a turbo charged engine, with a manual transmission and parking brake! This is the kind of car we should be celebrating.

Bottom like though, none of these cars have the light weight and high power of the Rx-7, which is what made it so special, back in the day and today. Fingers crossed for Mazda to give us something with more power than the Miata.

 

I will speak for myself. For me personally, I am all the way out on Nissan. They took an old chassis and old engine, dressed it up in new sheet metal, and expect me to be excited? They don't care anything about enthusiast (well, truth be told I can't make an argument for any manufacture who cares for us outside of Porsche, BMW, Toyota, and for better or worse, Dodge) and they definitely don't care enough to develop a new ca...wait...they can't afford to! That's how they got themselves in this situation in the first place...making subpar vehicles across the board. Toyota and BMW have a history of making great cars, as do Mazda. Nissan recycled the 350/370z for 19 years without doing anything to make their cars stand out...to make them special. Maybe they don't have the capabilities, I can't say. But they most certainly are not about to wake up one day, design a parts bin car, and revolutionize the sports car market. That's just not how this works.

Now switching gears here, I had to give more thought to your comment regarding where you're buying Supra's and I'd have to agree; if I can't buy a Supra from a BMW dealership, I'd rather have the Z4. Our local Toyota dealership in my area is worthless and the closest BMW dealership to me is over an hour away...yet somehow there are still more BMWs in my town than Toyota's (referring to new cars). However, Toyota just announced they will be releasing the Supra with a manual transmission because...they listened. Maybe this was always the plan, but people have been raving about how amazing that car is and how much better it would be with a manual option. I'm happy with my FD, but if there was a new car I'd buy that isn't a Porsche 911/Cayman, it would be a manual Supra...from a BMW dealership.

 

Why fix whats not broken? The Z line for years has been great. (The 240z and 240sx S13 being my favorites) They receive lots of love in the drift community so they have great aftermarket support.
I have never owned a car newer then 99 for a reason but if I had to the new Z would be my top pick. It has physical ***** for most of the controls and a manual. The turbo and LSD sound fun as well . I definitely like the look more then the new Zupra. Its like Toyota worked with BMW just because they knew they couldn't recreate the success of the legendary 2JZ.

 

So I'm going to have to disagree with you on a couple points you made. First and foremost, the Z line of cars have been good, yes. But the Z cars of the 70s and 80s was where that line really shined. The Z32 is a good car in it's own regards, but legendary?. I've owned 3 S-Chassis cars...1991 240sx (worst car I've every owned for reasons that weren't Nissan's fault, but it was evident that car was built on a truck chassis), a 1999 S15 Spec-S (fun car but terrible engine and horrid chassis), and a 2000 S15 Spec-R (better engine and trans but see last point about the chassis )...those cars were not good in any aspect. I tried to trade the Spec-R for a EK9 Civic Type R, but ended up selling the car and buying a '92 Civic Hatch...much better car. And being that they're popular is drifting doesn't really mean a whole lot imo.In regards to the Z I won't fault your opinion because we're all speculating here, but I just LOVE when people bring up the whole BMW/Toyota thing. Toyota didn't NEED BMW to develop the Supra, it is a relationship of convenience...just like Toyota and Subaru and the GR86/BRZ/FRS whatever you want to call it. This has been going on in the car industry since the beginning of time; it's just everyone is pointing their finger and sticking out their tongues because the internet told you to.

Toyota developed the chassis for the Supra, just like they developed the chassis for the A80 Supra. They went with the BMW B58 because they saw the potential of it exceeding the 2J with modern technology…and so far it has. Is it a coincidence people have been calling the 4 door 335i with the twin turbo N54/N55 the “4 door Supra” since I was in high school over a decade ago? I think not.

And a lil history lesson for ya….Yamaha developed all of the great Toyota motors of the late 80’s and early 90’s…including the 3SGE beams, the 1JZ, 2JZ, and even the motor for the LFA. Not that they needed to; most smart rich people delegate their work. Know your strengths and your weaknesses and you can sell the most cars in the world for damn near 30 years like Toyota. So once again if it came down to me buying a new Japanese car, Supra me please.

...that is unless Mazda has been staying up all night working on something with a rotary in the basement