Who's running peripheral port on their FC?
10-31-04, 11:15 PM
#77
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The questions is not that it's possible.
I had an underlying point about trying to give as realistic a scenario when approaching to persue a peripheral port 13B engine for your typical Joe Schmoe off the street.
Look at all the NA to turbo threads.
Look at all the SC NA threads recently.
People will read them and suddenly have this very-wrong notion that this is a very "simple" job and make tons of power.
Yes, they make tons of power, but there is a sacrifice, no matter what the pro-supporters claim.
I'd like to keep my terms to apply to a target audience of 16-year olds to 25 year-olds that mostly read this forum.
I am not assuming they are filthy rich or have the resources to pull off a PP engine install.
I don't think most 16- to 25-year olds could drive any PP on the street and afford the 10mpg gas mileage that comes with such a beast.
A lot of people like to talk about extremes, but I try to shoot for the center of the bell curve...for the average person.
-Ted
I had an underlying point about trying to give as realistic a scenario when approaching to persue a peripheral port 13B engine for your typical Joe Schmoe off the street.
Look at all the NA to turbo threads.
Look at all the SC NA threads recently.
People will read them and suddenly have this very-wrong notion that this is a very "simple" job and make tons of power.
Yes, they make tons of power, but there is a sacrifice, no matter what the pro-supporters claim.
I'd like to keep my terms to apply to a target audience of 16-year olds to 25 year-olds that mostly read this forum.
I am not assuming they are filthy rich or have the resources to pull off a PP engine install.
I don't think most 16- to 25-year olds could drive any PP on the street and afford the 10mpg gas mileage that comes with such a beast.
A lot of people like to talk about extremes, but I try to shoot for the center of the bell curve...for the average person.
-Ted
11-01-04, 03:14 AM
#78
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I don´t personally agree with your thinking at all RETed.
Rather contumelious actually. To think that you know better than all the 16-25 yr olds that read this board.
I fit into this catagory of yours and I know full well I could do a PP install for WELL under $10kUS...
Obviously a turbo install could be done cheaper for the same HP. But like i said before some people just want a PP!
Why not keep your replies about your first hand experiences with the fun of driving a PP wether it be good or bad RETed instead of insulting everyone elses intelligence by thinking you know best and everyone else has rocks in their heads.
Rather contumelious actually. To think that you know better than all the 16-25 yr olds that read this board.
I fit into this catagory of yours and I know full well I could do a PP install for WELL under $10kUS...
Obviously a turbo install could be done cheaper for the same HP. But like i said before some people just want a PP!
Why not keep your replies about your first hand experiences with the fun of driving a PP wether it be good or bad RETed instead of insulting everyone elses intelligence by thinking you know best and everyone else has rocks in their heads.
11-01-04, 03:34 AM
#79
Let's face it. There's an exception to every rule. Most of the "kids" on this forum don't know jack squat. It doesn't mean they all don't. If you know what you are doing, great! This issue that TED and I have here is that some kid who has no experience with rotaries or who knows nothig about how to properly mod a car, is going to read threads like this and get the idea that he can just go out and get a peripheral port done to his engine and go fast. You are teaching these kids that. They won't know what the tradeoffs are or about the other mods that should be done first before any porting let alone before peripheral porting should be done. Porting should be the very last mod done anyways.
Why are you so pissy? Is it because someone disagrees with you? So what? Big deal. Usually TED and I are at each other's throats!
We are making the assumption that the average, everyday person will not want to put up with all of the downsides to driving a peripheral port engine on the street. It isn't just a simple endeavour to put up with for most people. If you like it, great. Do it. You are easily in the minority in the world. Get over it. There's nothing wrong with it. Logic just dictates that you should try to get the most power you can with the least amount of sacrifice. Price actually isn't the issue here. Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?
The entire issue is that uneducated kids are going to learn bad habits and wrong ways of doing things. By wrong I mean things in the wrong order and wothout knowing the consequences. It is harder to convince someone they are wrong than it is to teach them the right thing in the first place.
I don't think TED questioned your intelligence in his last post. He was merely referring to what the average person is going to think rather than the extremists. You are an extremist. TED is a realist. What's to disagree with?
Don't get mad. Just get over the fact that you are a minority. It's OK. Nothing wrong with that. No need for the attitude.
Why are you so pissy? Is it because someone disagrees with you? So what? Big deal. Usually TED and I are at each other's throats!
We are making the assumption that the average, everyday person will not want to put up with all of the downsides to driving a peripheral port engine on the street. It isn't just a simple endeavour to put up with for most people. If you like it, great. Do it. You are easily in the minority in the world. Get over it. There's nothing wrong with it. Logic just dictates that you should try to get the most power you can with the least amount of sacrifice. Price actually isn't the issue here. Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?
The entire issue is that uneducated kids are going to learn bad habits and wrong ways of doing things. By wrong I mean things in the wrong order and wothout knowing the consequences. It is harder to convince someone they are wrong than it is to teach them the right thing in the first place.
I don't think TED questioned your intelligence in his last post. He was merely referring to what the average person is going to think rather than the extremists. You are an extremist. TED is a realist. What's to disagree with?
Don't get mad. Just get over the fact that you are a minority. It's OK. Nothing wrong with that. No need for the attitude.
11-01-04, 04:23 AM
#80
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Foced induction will allways be cheaper per HP gained, and easier to live with.
My only point is that a PP can be driven on the street successfully, and that a small PP would be like a stockport car,.. not all PP's are the same, like i said the nsu spider was PP from the factory,...
On the noise issue, the scoot 4 rotor is very quiet for being a PP, It uses a second set of straight thru mufflers that open up when in the high rpm/load range.
If i didnt live in cali i would definatly build a PP car,.. I'd probably have another car as a DD mainly because of the gas mileage issue, but it would be an awesome weekend car... I think some of the bad gas mileage can be tunned out with injection as opposed to carbs..
Ted, why do you care what people might try? If they try it and dont like it, so be it, they should have done more research beforehand,..Some people just like the idea of running NA, and the PP is the ultimate encarnation of that. If power and drivability was the only concern im sure no one would look to go this route, as a turbo destroys it in both respects, but thats not all that matters to everyone, some people like to be different.
My only point is that a PP can be driven on the street successfully, and that a small PP would be like a stockport car,.. not all PP's are the same, like i said the nsu spider was PP from the factory,...
On the noise issue, the scoot 4 rotor is very quiet for being a PP, It uses a second set of straight thru mufflers that open up when in the high rpm/load range.
If i didnt live in cali i would definatly build a PP car,.. I'd probably have another car as a DD mainly because of the gas mileage issue, but it would be an awesome weekend car... I think some of the bad gas mileage can be tunned out with injection as opposed to carbs..
Ted, why do you care what people might try? If they try it and dont like it, so be it, they should have done more research beforehand,..Some people just like the idea of running NA, and the PP is the ultimate encarnation of that. If power and drivability was the only concern im sure no one would look to go this route, as a turbo destroys it in both respects, but thats not all that matters to everyone, some people like to be different.
11-01-04, 05:30 AM
#81
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Originally Posted by drago86
On the noise issue, the scoot 4 rotor is very quiet for being a PP, It uses a second set of straight thru mufflers that open up when in the high rpm/load range.
Generally, more exhaust pulse means less exhaust "noise" due to harmonic cancellation...depending on exhaust design of course.
Ted, why do you care what people might try? If they try it and dont like it, so be it, they should have done more research beforehand,..Some people just like the idea of running NA, and the PP is the ultimate encarnation of that. If power and drivability was the only concern im sure no one would look to go this route, as a turbo destroys it in both respects, but thats not all that matters to everyone, some people like to be different.
I remember wasting money doing things that were "stupid".
I paid $9k for my car back in 1995.
I dropped about $15k+ messing with and experimenting.
Right now, it's still a 13-second car - yes, most would say it's embarassing for the amount of money that I spent.
I hope I learned a lot from the ordeal.
I'd like to help others not go through what I had to go through, and hopefully they will avoid the mistakes I went through and not waste money unnecessarily.
If you don't understand what I'm trying to say, I apologize for wasting your time.
BTW, like it matters, I am going to mess with a turbo PP design that I've been toying with in my head by next year.
-Ted
11-01-04, 05:55 AM
#82
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"I remember first getting my FC turbo.
I remember wasting money doing things that were "stupid".
I paid $9k for my car back in 1995.
I dropped about $15k+ messing with and experimenting.
Right now, it's still a 13-second car - yes, most would say it's embarassing for the amount of money that I spent.
I hope I learned a lot from the ordeal.
I'd like to help others not go through what I had to go through, and hopefully they will avoid the mistakes I went through and not waste money unnecessarily.
If you don't understand what I'm trying to say, I apologize for wasting your time."
indeed! some people come here looking for advice. usually when someone, such as Reted, AAroncake, etc, respond i make sure to read and try to follow what they say. They have more experience then i do and obviously know more, so listening would not hurt. Besides, im sure a lot of this stuff that people try to do have already been done or tried by someone else. I definetly appreciate all info and criticism.
In no way am i trying to kiss ***, im just stating the truth.
I remember wasting money doing things that were "stupid".
I paid $9k for my car back in 1995.
I dropped about $15k+ messing with and experimenting.
Right now, it's still a 13-second car - yes, most would say it's embarassing for the amount of money that I spent.
I hope I learned a lot from the ordeal.
I'd like to help others not go through what I had to go through, and hopefully they will avoid the mistakes I went through and not waste money unnecessarily.
If you don't understand what I'm trying to say, I apologize for wasting your time."
indeed! some people come here looking for advice. usually when someone, such as Reted, AAroncake, etc, respond i make sure to read and try to follow what they say. They have more experience then i do and obviously know more, so listening would not hurt. Besides, im sure a lot of this stuff that people try to do have already been done or tried by someone else. I definetly appreciate all info and criticism.
In no way am i trying to kiss ***, im just stating the truth.
11-01-04, 07:13 AM
#83
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Originally Posted by apreludem
"I remember first getting my FC turbo.
I remember wasting money doing things that were "stupid".
I paid $9k for my car back in 1995.
I dropped about $15k+ messing with and experimenting.
Right now, it's still a 13-second car - yes, most would say it's embarassing for the amount of money that I spent.
I hope I learned a lot from the ordeal.
I'd like to help others not go through what I had to go through, and hopefully they will avoid the mistakes I went through and not waste money unnecessarily.
If you don't understand what I'm trying to say, I apologize for wasting your time."
indeed! some people come here looking for advice. usually when someone, such as Reted, AAroncake, etc, respond i make sure to read and try to follow what they say. They have more experience then i do and obviously know more, so listening would not hurt. Besides, im sure a lot of this stuff that people try to do have already been done or tried by someone else. I definetly appreciate all info and criticism.
In no way am i trying to kiss ***, im just stating the truth.
I remember wasting money doing things that were "stupid".
I paid $9k for my car back in 1995.
I dropped about $15k+ messing with and experimenting.
Right now, it's still a 13-second car - yes, most would say it's embarassing for the amount of money that I spent.
I hope I learned a lot from the ordeal.
I'd like to help others not go through what I had to go through, and hopefully they will avoid the mistakes I went through and not waste money unnecessarily.
If you don't understand what I'm trying to say, I apologize for wasting your time."
indeed! some people come here looking for advice. usually when someone, such as Reted, AAroncake, etc, respond i make sure to read and try to follow what they say. They have more experience then i do and obviously know more, so listening would not hurt. Besides, im sure a lot of this stuff that people try to do have already been done or tried by someone else. I definetly appreciate all info and criticism.
In no way am i trying to kiss ***, im just stating the truth.
I don't know how you could drop 15k and end up where you are for hp, I was far past the 400 hp level and into the suspension pretty heavily for less than 10k, which also includes the price of the car..
But thats besides the point...
P Port is doable on the streets, I've seen a running pport car, its not that big bad and scary, if they are doing it in Japan on cars where gas is 6.00/gallon, it can't be all that bad....
This forum just kills me, I am glad I ignored it when I built my own car...Max
11-01-04, 07:19 AM
#84
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rotarygod,
I´m not pissed off at all and i don´t know where you got that impression.
and i don´t think im a minority at all.
I´m all for advocating that someone wishing to do a large porting job on their engine take a ride in a car with a similar style of porting.. Strangely enough I don´t think this would discourage as many people as it would encourage to do a similar porting job.
...personal opinion of course...
I´d just wish people would stick to some slightly more first hand experience than ´oh it´ll cost $10,000US´ or ´it´ll make no power at all until 4krpm´ or even ´they blow up at 10k miles´
but hey beggers can´t be choosers.
If your all so hell bent on stopping newbies doing Peripheral ports, or full bridge ports, then tell them the real figures instead of exagerated figures and if the real ones aren´t enough to pursuade them, then so be it .
Thats all im asking.
And im still saying that almost no one doing a n/a PP or full BP does it for the power, unless they´re in a racing class that doesnt allow forced induction, they do it for the thrill of driving one.
I´m not pissed off at all and i don´t know where you got that impression.
and i don´t think im a minority at all.
I´m all for advocating that someone wishing to do a large porting job on their engine take a ride in a car with a similar style of porting.. Strangely enough I don´t think this would discourage as many people as it would encourage to do a similar porting job.
...personal opinion of course...
I´d just wish people would stick to some slightly more first hand experience than ´oh it´ll cost $10,000US´ or ´it´ll make no power at all until 4krpm´ or even ´they blow up at 10k miles´
but hey beggers can´t be choosers.
If your all so hell bent on stopping newbies doing Peripheral ports, or full bridge ports, then tell them the real figures instead of exagerated figures and if the real ones aren´t enough to pursuade them, then so be it .
Thats all im asking.
And im still saying that almost no one doing a n/a PP or full BP does it for the power, unless they´re in a racing class that doesnt allow forced induction, they do it for the thrill of driving one.
11-01-04, 10:07 AM
#85
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im not even going to comment on the streetability of a p-port since i realy dont know. but i think its kinda silly that you guys are going on this personal crusade to keep newbees from even considering a pport. not to say that it should or shouldnt be done, but come on, you making a stink about it is probobly gona make some kid want to do it even more so he can try to be a bad/cheap *** and have a $1,000 pport (like that could even happen).
even if some kid gets it in his head that he wants a pport he will soon realize wheather or not its for him when he starts serioulsy pricing one out considering HIS parts connecstions AND HIS personal ability.
if the kid is stupid enought to actualy take his motor apart, jb-weld the sideports, take a hand drill to the rotor housings and stick a pvc pipe in the hole and calim he has a pport, dont feel sorry for the dumb ***--laugh cus thats f'ing hilarious.
this thread needs to die soon......
even if some kid gets it in his head that he wants a pport he will soon realize wheather or not its for him when he starts serioulsy pricing one out considering HIS parts connecstions AND HIS personal ability.
if the kid is stupid enought to actualy take his motor apart, jb-weld the sideports, take a hand drill to the rotor housings and stick a pvc pipe in the hole and calim he has a pport, dont feel sorry for the dumb ***--laugh cus thats f'ing hilarious.
this thread needs to die soon......
11-01-04, 01:57 PM
#86
Originally Posted by andrew lohaus
if the kid is stupid enought to actualy take his motor apart, jb-weld the sideports, take a hand drill to the rotor housings and stick a pvc pipe in the hole and calim he has a pport, dont feel sorry for the dumb ***--laugh cus thats f'ing hilarious.
11-01-04, 08:59 PM
#88
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Scary thing is, that's about the way it's done. I built a test PP housing using a hole saw, stainless sleeve, and Devcon. It was a 12A housing, and turned out good enough. Ultimately, I'll have the machine shop properly bore the holes and then press in the sleeves. I'll then trim the inside with the die grinder, and epoxy the surrounding areas. I just need some decent 12A housings...Getting hard to find these days.
11-01-04, 09:07 PM
#89
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Oh, Aaron_Cake, I just want you to know that I read your N/A-Turbo page, and that is by far the most informative, down-to-earth, and inspiring thing I've read. I was wondering, however, how is it as of now? Does it run good? I think I read that you broke 12's on 11psi on the Hitachi T-18, how is the drivetrain holding up? Please fill me in because I'm leaning more toward FI after seeing some things in this thread. THANKS!!!
11-02-04, 01:43 AM
#90
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
Scary thing is, that's about the way it's done. I built a test PP housing using a hole saw, stainless sleeve, and Devcon. It was a 12A housing, and turned out good enough. Ultimately, I'll have the machine shop properly bore the holes and then press in the sleeves. I'll then trim the inside with the die grinder, and epoxy the surrounding areas. I just need some decent 12A housings...Getting hard to find these days.
11-02-04, 08:05 AM
#91
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The technical expertise of building it and tuning it are so far ahead of most "kids", arguring against it for "kids" sake, is pretty silly, now you guys are taking up motherhood?... 
Now I am tempted to buy some P port parts next spring, you can buy the neccesary parts directly from Mazda in Japan, including factory prefilled sideport irons...Its the next wave of street tuning, don't be scared of it...Max
Now I am tempted to buy some P port parts next spring, you can buy the neccesary parts directly from Mazda in Japan, including factory prefilled sideport irons...Its the next wave of street tuning, don't be scared of it...Max
11-02-04, 03:15 PM
#92
...94% correct.
Okay...I keep trying to sift through this thread for viable information and have YET to see one person post about their p-port car (like the thread title is asking for) and, by page 3, I'm tired of hearing about "unstreetable" crap.
"Streetable" is a term intirely dependant on the individual. Way too many of you are confusing "streetable" with "practical". The biggest thing that I see being tossed for is the fact that a p-port motor makes no power down low. Last tie I checked p-port 13b's had an operating range of up to 16,000 rotations per minute, or (my new personal favorite measurement) 96,000 degrees per second
. So? A normal port 13b doesn't make any power above 7,000rpm. Is THAT a fair comparison? A p-port motor can have nearly TWICE the operating range of a normal rotary...if you're going to compare them by saying a p-port doesn't have much to offer under 4k, then you need to remind yourself that a normal port motor doesn't have a lot to give under 1,500rpm.
A p-port motor is PLENTY streetable. "Practical" is the propper term.
"Streetable" is a term intirely dependant on the individual. Way too many of you are confusing "streetable" with "practical". The biggest thing that I see being tossed for is the fact that a p-port motor makes no power down low. Last tie I checked p-port 13b's had an operating range of up to 16,000 rotations per minute, or (my new personal favorite measurement) 96,000 degrees per second
. So? A normal port 13b doesn't make any power above 7,000rpm. Is THAT a fair comparison? A p-port motor can have nearly TWICE the operating range of a normal rotary...if you're going to compare them by saying a p-port doesn't have much to offer under 4k, then you need to remind yourself that a normal port motor doesn't have a lot to give under 1,500rpm.A p-port motor is PLENTY streetable. "Practical" is the propper term.
11-02-04, 04:06 PM
#93
By those standards, a Formula 1 car is PLENTY streetable.
I'd love to have a peripheral port engine and will probably build one someday. It would be fun. It would be in a track car though as my streetport engine is far easier and practical to drive on the street. It doesn't need any special attention or driving technique.
I'd love to have a peripheral port engine and will probably build one someday. It would be fun. It would be in a track car though as my streetport engine is far easier and practical to drive on the street. It doesn't need any special attention or driving technique.
11-02-04, 05:26 PM
#94
...94% correct.
Originally Posted by rotarygod
By those standards, a Formula 1 car is PLENTY streetable.
I'd love to have a peripheral port engine and will probably build one someday. It would be fun. It would be in a track car though as my streetport engine is far easier and practical to drive on the street. It doesn't need any special attention or driving technique.
Also, thank you for using the key word (practical).
11-02-04, 06:48 PM
#95
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Its really not that much money to do a p-port, I saw the bill for the parts to build a 3 rotor p-port, and the charge to fill the ports worked out to about a 100 bucks extra per iron, and the rotor housing mod was about 150.00 extra per housing...To do a 2 rotor, it would work out to about 3000.00 Canadian for the irons and the housings, and thats the mazda factory altered parts, add on about 400 for shipping, so say worst case 3500.00, Fd bearings, external oil system, full rebuild kit, 1400.00 Canadian, polish the e shaft, 50 bucks..Lightened flywheel 300.00 balance rotating assembly 150.00, assemble and clearance motor(for me free)... The easiest part for me would be the throttlebody and induction, I could wack one up together in afternnoon for pretty much nothing, a couple of flanges, some pipe and a couple of junkyard throttlebodes, make a fuel rail.. done... for someone else I will allow a 1000.00....haltech e6x around 1600.canaidan, header I can build but lets say 300.00... lets say you bought a running 6 port n/a for some of the extra bits and pieces, 500 is generous for that...... So whats our tally here... 8700 or so.. Not to bad, for a brand new motor that will probably make 300 rwhp with enough tuning with a stand alone.. And thats canuck bucks, so take 25% off that for yankee dollars...
And with it being na, it won't really care what grade of fuel it gets...Not that expensive, and really you could probably do it for less using your own irons and doing the filling yourself.... It also depends on how much you can and will do yourself.. If you need someone else to do the work add 4'gs....Max
And with it being na, it won't really care what grade of fuel it gets...Not that expensive, and really you could probably do it for less using your own irons and doing the filling yourself.... It also depends on how much you can and will do yourself.. If you need someone else to do the work add 4'gs....Max
11-02-04, 07:50 PM
#96
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Originally Posted by Makenzie71
"Streetable" is a term intirely dependant on the individual. Way too many of you are confusing "streetable" with "practical". The biggest thing that I see being tossed for is the fact that a p-port motor makes no power down low. Last tie I checked p-port 13b's had an operating range of up to 16,000 rotations per minute, or (my new personal favorite measurement) 96,000 degrees per second . So? A normal port 13b doesn't make any power above 7,000rpm. Is THAT a fair comparison? A p-port motor can have nearly TWICE the operating range of a normal rotary...if you're going to compare them by saying a p-port doesn't have much to offer under 4k, then you need to remind yourself that a normal port motor doesn't have a lot to give under 1,500rpm.
A p-port motor is PLENTY streetable. "Practical" is the propper term.
. So? A normal port 13b doesn't make any power above 7,000rpm. Is THAT a fair comparison? A p-port motor can have nearly TWICE the operating range of a normal rotary...if you're going to compare them by saying a p-port doesn't have much to offer under 4k, then you need to remind yourself that a normal port motor doesn't have a lot to give under 1,500rpm.A p-port motor is PLENTY streetable. "Practical" is the propper term.
Why don't you build one and tell us your experiences?
Good luck with your new project.
As for people questioning prices...
My price was straight from Mazdatrix - don't blame me if you don't like the price.
I see LOTS of guessing on costs - gee, and you get on my case for not having first hand information?
I challenge any one of you to build a streetable PP and post your first hand experience.
It doesn't feel nice when the shoe is on the other foot, huh?
Right now, it's an exercise is theory.
It is coming from both sides, so don't be pointing the finger at me for not bringing 1st hand experiences to this thread.
You pro-"streetable PP" guys are just as guilty.
Sheez...
-Ted
11-02-04, 08:32 PM
#97
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Well i´ve been in a few agressive full BP cars which, as said in numerous other places, have worse ´streetability´ than a PP.
I found nothing that would make _me_ want to not drive one on the street.
See, it´s all personal opinion really.
Which is why someone considering this type of porting should go for a ride in one and see if they find it fun to drive. At the risk of repeating myself, it would encourage more than it would discourage, IMHO.
My main point is that you can´t say that you can´t drive them on the street. It totally all depends on how you look at your car and what you want out of it.
I found nothing that would make _me_ want to not drive one on the street.
See, it´s all personal opinion really.
Which is why someone considering this type of porting should go for a ride in one and see if they find it fun to drive. At the risk of repeating myself, it would encourage more than it would discourage, IMHO.
My main point is that you can´t say that you can´t drive them on the street. It totally all depends on how you look at your car and what you want out of it.
11-04-04, 03:35 PM
#98
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I really, really don't want to clean this thread. Because if you ignore all the childish namecalling, it's a good thread. So I'll be cleaning it up in a few minutes. If it gets messed up again, you better believe that it will be closed, and those that messed it up dealt with fairly severely.
Edit...Feel free to discuss whether it is streetable or not, bearing in mind that some people have different ideas of what "streetable" means. This does not mean, however, that you must argue and insult one another over it.
Edit...Feel free to discuss whether it is streetable or not, bearing in mind that some people have different ideas of what "streetable" means. This does not mean, however, that you must argue and insult one another over it.
Last edited by Aaron Cake; 11-04-04 at 03:41 PM.
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sherff
Adaptronic Engine Mgmt - AUS
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02-24-19 12:09 PM
