Turbo ECU on N/A Car Harness Build
05-18-06, 12:00 PM
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Turbo ECU on N/A Car Harness Build
Hi-
So I've been plumbing through the archives looking for a solution to this problem. Everybody seems to want to convert to a RTEK 2.0 ECU to run their systems and this problem is pretty basic.
I want to swap the Turbo ECU in place of the N/A ecu. If this could be successfully done, we could all use this technique to swap on a Turbo ECU and have the car run fine.
No one ever discusses this because it is quickly dismissed as difficult and impossible.
I have been looking over the FSM and it appears that all we would need to do is swap some wires around; some wires would also need to be added to a N/A car. Obviously the knock-control box and boost-pressure sensor would have to be wired in from scratch with the proper resistance wiring.
Has anyone done this? Why can't we band group together here and make a product that converts the N/A to the Turbo ECU.
I am aware that the car would not run well, beacuse of the 6-port issues and different fuel/timing issues. This would not matter in the end, because an external 6-port controller could be added and the RTEK ecu could be added to tune car prior to installation of a turbo.
What's up? Let's hear input please!
So I've been plumbing through the archives looking for a solution to this problem. Everybody seems to want to convert to a RTEK 2.0 ECU to run their systems and this problem is pretty basic.
I want to swap the Turbo ECU in place of the N/A ecu. If this could be successfully done, we could all use this technique to swap on a Turbo ECU and have the car run fine.
No one ever discusses this because it is quickly dismissed as difficult and impossible.
I have been looking over the FSM and it appears that all we would need to do is swap some wires around; some wires would also need to be added to a N/A car. Obviously the knock-control box and boost-pressure sensor would have to be wired in from scratch with the proper resistance wiring.
Has anyone done this? Why can't we band group together here and make a product that converts the N/A to the Turbo ECU.
I am aware that the car would not run well, beacuse of the 6-port issues and different fuel/timing issues. This would not matter in the end, because an external 6-port controller could be added and the RTEK ecu could be added to tune car prior to installation of a turbo.
What's up? Let's hear input please!
05-18-06, 12:45 PM
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Your Post is a little out there as far as I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish...
Are you doing a T2 swap into an N/A?
Why would the car not run well as a 6port? I Removed the 6 port sleeves and the turbo works well on the 6 port block... I guess I just don't follow your driving force. If you are trying to build a T2 ecu out of a N/A ecu the boards themselves are way a little too different.. Unless you have an 88 Convertible which came with a ECU that can run the turbo harness... Sure anything is possible, you can rewire your ECU all day, make a little black box that plugs in but a SAFC would eliminate the Need for the T2 ecu in theory anyways and that would be what you would end up building.....
Are you doing a T2 swap into an N/A?
Why would the car not run well as a 6port? I Removed the 6 port sleeves and the turbo works well on the 6 port block... I guess I just don't follow your driving force. If you are trying to build a T2 ecu out of a N/A ecu the boards themselves are way a little too different.. Unless you have an 88 Convertible which came with a ECU that can run the turbo harness... Sure anything is possible, you can rewire your ECU all day, make a little black box that plugs in but a SAFC would eliminate the Need for the T2 ecu in theory anyways and that would be what you would end up building.....
05-18-06, 12:59 PM
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So I went through the FSM and found some quirky differences. One of the differences is amusing. By in large, the harnesses are the exact same thing. The ECUs are also mostly the same thing.
1) ECU Plug 1C:
Turbo: Air Bypass Solenoid Valve
NA: Air Bypass Relay
Note: This may be the same thing. Will do on-car investigation.
2) ECU Plug 1R:
Turbo: Knock Control Unit
NA: P/S Switch
Note: This should be a straight wire-in for the KCU onto the NA.
3) ECU Plug 2B:
Turbo: Pressure Sensor (2.3V-2.7V)
NA: Boost Sensor (3.5V-4.0V)
Note: I did not make a writing mistake or reading mistake here. This is actually what the FSM says. This leads me to believe that these two parts are directly interchangeable if not the same exact part. I will investigate this.
4) ECU Plug 2K:
Turbo: Twin-Scroll Turbocharger Solenoid Valve
NA: Split-Air Solenoid Valve
Note: I'm guessing this is the 6-port actuation solenoid. Assuming one wants a S5, not S4, turbocharger, this could be completely neglected and not wired. Then we would simply have to put some kind of control next to the box to actuate the 6-port effectively and as desired. That's all!
5) ECU Plug 2L:
Turbo: Intake Air Temperature Sensor (inlet air pipe)
NA: Intake Air Temperature Sensor (dynamic chamber)
Note: This looks to be the same sensor but in a different location on both cars. This should cause no problem, I am assuming, because the tuning would be ‘a priori’, meaning that inputs to our ECU “black box” would be held locally consistent with respect to the car tuned. This assumption appears fine because the FSM lists the same sensor specifications, mainly: 1V-2V at 80 degrees Celsius (176 degrees Fahrenheit)
6) ECU Plug 3D:
Turbo: Fuel Pump Resistor Relay
NA: Inhibitor Switch
Note: I believe that this is the issue people always talk about with switching the fuel pump and having to rewire a turbo car. If you have searched the archives you know that when swapping a fuel pump on to a non-turbo car, no re-wiring is required. I may be wrong on this and will do more research. This may also have to do with the thermo-heat spreader that is frequently mentioned in reference to doing a complete swap.
I will do more research and follow up later regarding the creation of an adapter package of some sort. Of course if no one responds or cares, I'll probably just convert my car.
1) ECU Plug 1C:
Turbo: Air Bypass Solenoid Valve
NA: Air Bypass Relay
Note: This may be the same thing. Will do on-car investigation.
2) ECU Plug 1R:
Turbo: Knock Control Unit
NA: P/S Switch
Note: This should be a straight wire-in for the KCU onto the NA.
3) ECU Plug 2B:
Turbo: Pressure Sensor (2.3V-2.7V)
NA: Boost Sensor (3.5V-4.0V)
Note: I did not make a writing mistake or reading mistake here. This is actually what the FSM says. This leads me to believe that these two parts are directly interchangeable if not the same exact part. I will investigate this.
4) ECU Plug 2K:
Turbo: Twin-Scroll Turbocharger Solenoid Valve
NA: Split-Air Solenoid Valve
Note: I'm guessing this is the 6-port actuation solenoid. Assuming one wants a S5, not S4, turbocharger, this could be completely neglected and not wired. Then we would simply have to put some kind of control next to the box to actuate the 6-port effectively and as desired. That's all!
5) ECU Plug 2L:
Turbo: Intake Air Temperature Sensor (inlet air pipe)
NA: Intake Air Temperature Sensor (dynamic chamber)
Note: This looks to be the same sensor but in a different location on both cars. This should cause no problem, I am assuming, because the tuning would be ‘a priori’, meaning that inputs to our ECU “black box” would be held locally consistent with respect to the car tuned. This assumption appears fine because the FSM lists the same sensor specifications, mainly: 1V-2V at 80 degrees Celsius (176 degrees Fahrenheit)
6) ECU Plug 3D:
Turbo: Fuel Pump Resistor Relay
NA: Inhibitor Switch
Note: I believe that this is the issue people always talk about with switching the fuel pump and having to rewire a turbo car. If you have searched the archives you know that when swapping a fuel pump on to a non-turbo car, no re-wiring is required. I may be wrong on this and will do more research. This may also have to do with the thermo-heat spreader that is frequently mentioned in reference to doing a complete swap.
I will do more research and follow up later regarding the creation of an adapter package of some sort. Of course if no one responds or cares, I'll probably just convert my car.
05-18-06, 01:02 PM
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The wiring for the boost sensor is just the same, turbo or n/a. You'd have to get a turbo boost sensor to match a turbo ECU.
The RTEK2.0 is setup for 550cc injectors. The na is 460cc. It ain't a gonna work very well, especially since the n/a needs fuel to be removed on the stock n/a ECU imho.
You can slap a turbo ecu in a n/a car and the thing will start and run. PUt a turbo boost sensor in and it will run even better. Been there, done that just for the exercise. N/a sensor with turbo ECU sucks. Too large a voltage difference. Messes up the idle and timing using a n/a sensor on a turbo ECU.
I also don't really know what your wanting to do. Put a turbo on a n/a engine and use a RTEK2.0 ECU. I'll go along with that. Not hard to do. As long as you use 550's minimum.
The car will run without a knock sensor and no solenoid for the turbo twin scroll if using a S4 turbo. The twin scroll will be wide open and you'd have a touch slower spooliing.
The RTEK2.0 is setup for 550cc injectors. The na is 460cc. It ain't a gonna work very well, especially since the n/a needs fuel to be removed on the stock n/a ECU imho.
You can slap a turbo ecu in a n/a car and the thing will start and run. PUt a turbo boost sensor in and it will run even better. Been there, done that just for the exercise. N/a sensor with turbo ECU sucks. Too large a voltage difference. Messes up the idle and timing using a n/a sensor on a turbo ECU.
I also don't really know what your wanting to do. Put a turbo on a n/a engine and use a RTEK2.0 ECU. I'll go along with that. Not hard to do. As long as you use 550's minimum.
The car will run without a knock sensor and no solenoid for the turbo twin scroll if using a S4 turbo. The twin scroll will be wide open and you'd have a touch slower spooliing.
05-18-06, 01:06 PM
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I am trying to do this because I have a spare-parts turbo car in my drive-way. I want to keep the motor I have and turbocharge my clean NA. It seems to me that the RTEK is the best way to properly tune up a car without going aftermarket. So with all of these little factoids combined, I am in need of a way to get my NA car running with the Turbo ECU - albeit it may run like junk - and then I would be able to swap on a RTEK to detune it. In a few more weeks when I have all of the turbo stuff that I need together, I can then get it on a dyno and tune it up properly. I don't have time to swap an entire harness; I feel that's a waste of time and effort. As far as I can tell from the FSM the plugs are the same!
Do you follow my motivation now?
Do you follow my motivation now?
05-18-06, 01:08 PM
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OK! Hailers! Thank you!
So you are telling me the following:
1) I need to swap the actual boost sensor on the cars.
2) Swap the injectors to 550CC injectors and fuel pump of my choice
3) Swap ECUs. The car should start, run, and drive albeit poorly.
4) Add on the RTEK and tune the thing and it should be fine.
So you are telling me the following:
1) I need to swap the actual boost sensor on the cars.
2) Swap the injectors to 550CC injectors and fuel pump of my choice
3) Swap ECUs. The car should start, run, and drive albeit poorly.
4) Add on the RTEK and tune the thing and it should be fine.
05-18-06, 01:14 PM
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Here is the thing: I helped tuned my friends Z31 Turbo and the thing we realized after a long time was that to get the car to run like a factory tuned motor one has to separate the boost and non-boost tuning components. The best way to do this is to tune the car throughout the entire powerband with the turbo pipe not hooked up. This would be equivalent to adding a bit of backpressure to a NA car, but basically its the same thing as having a NA car. From here, one has a more accurate base map to tune a turbo car!
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05-18-06, 01:24 PM
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I'm not concentrating today.
Say you have a n/a with a n/a harness in it. And the car runs. You can just swap the ECU's right now, PLUS swap the boost/pressure sensor also. The car will run just fine as a daily driver just by doing those things. You don't have to swap the injectors until you put a turbo engine or a turbo on your n/a engine.
There are some wires in a non turbo harness that should be moved around when and if you put the turbo engine/turbo on a n/a engine in the car.
I'm assuming this is all series four since RTEK does not come for a S5 ....yet.
IF needed I can tell you what small wiring needs to be adjusted later.
Make sense? Like I say, I'm not concentrating. There's a bunch of peopel on the tv yapping and I'm yapping back at the tv. I'm multi- tasking and I can't even walk and chew gum at the same time.
Say you have a n/a with a n/a harness in it. And the car runs. You can just swap the ECU's right now, PLUS swap the boost/pressure sensor also. The car will run just fine as a daily driver just by doing those things. You don't have to swap the injectors until you put a turbo engine or a turbo on your n/a engine.
There are some wires in a non turbo harness that should be moved around when and if you put the turbo engine/turbo on a n/a engine in the car.
I'm assuming this is all series four since RTEK does not come for a S5 ....yet.
IF needed I can tell you what small wiring needs to be adjusted later.
Make sense? Like I say, I'm not concentrating. There's a bunch of peopel on the tv yapping and I'm yapping back at the tv. I'm multi- tasking and I can't even walk and chew gum at the same time.
05-18-06, 01:26 PM
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And, YES, don't swap the harness. IT's a total waste of time and man power.
And there's no rush on the fuel pump as long as the engine is n/a without turbo.
So .....swap the ECU's.
Swap the pressure/boost sensors.
Leave the injectors until you acutually have a turbo on the car.
And there's no rush on the fuel pump as long as the engine is n/a without turbo.
So .....swap the ECU's.
Swap the pressure/boost sensors.
Leave the injectors until you acutually have a turbo on the car.
Last edited by HAILERS; 05-18-06 at 01:29 PM.
05-18-06, 01:51 PM
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About the turbo vs non turbo harness.
There are the following pin differences: 1C, 1R, , 2K, 3D.
1C.....leave it alone. The Air Bypass Valve is used for only 17 seconds on cold starts to help the BAC produce that 3000 rpms on a cold start. You won't miss it. You'll now have a cold start of only about 2300rpm for 17seconds.
1R.....On a n/a it goes to the power steering switch. On a Turbo car it goes to the KNOCK Control Unit.. IF you have no power steering on your car, forget about it right now. Later you can run a single wire from 1R to the aquired Knock Control Unit. The car will run without the Knock Control Box, so it's not a player right now.
2K.......on a non turbo it goes to the Split Air Solenoid. On a Turbo it goes to the Twin Scroll Solenoid. So for right now don't worry as long as you have the n/a engine in the car. Later when you get a turbo, you can FIND THE SPLIT AIR SOLENOID PLUG. It's located on the end of the Split Air Solenoids harness, near the thermostat housing. What you do is, is run two wires from that connector (put a spade connector on the end of two wires and insert them in the plug) to a new solenoid (take the twin scroll solenoid off your spare car). Then run the vacuum lines from the twin scroll solenoid over to the pipe on the twin scroll pipe on the turbo.
3D....is used for an inhibitor switch on the non turbo automatic cars. On a turbo its a signal from the ECU to the Fuel PUmp resistor Relay. Your n/a has no such relay. You don't need to do anything with this pin now or later. UNLESS later you want to put the Fuel Pump Resistor Relay package in the now turbo car. Install it in the rear of the car in the jack area.
So you can see that if you put the turbo ECU in the car right now, you will not harm a darn thing. You install the turbo pressure sensor because they output a different voltage at the same pressure as a turbo pressure sensor and it really messes the idle/timing up .
Right now I'd leave the n/a afm in the car with the Turbo ECU and Turbo pressure sensor. I think it'll work just fine as a daily driver.
There are the following pin differences: 1C, 1R, , 2K, 3D.
1C.....leave it alone. The Air Bypass Valve is used for only 17 seconds on cold starts to help the BAC produce that 3000 rpms on a cold start. You won't miss it. You'll now have a cold start of only about 2300rpm for 17seconds.
1R.....On a n/a it goes to the power steering switch. On a Turbo car it goes to the KNOCK Control Unit.. IF you have no power steering on your car, forget about it right now. Later you can run a single wire from 1R to the aquired Knock Control Unit. The car will run without the Knock Control Box, so it's not a player right now.
2K.......on a non turbo it goes to the Split Air Solenoid. On a Turbo it goes to the Twin Scroll Solenoid. So for right now don't worry as long as you have the n/a engine in the car. Later when you get a turbo, you can FIND THE SPLIT AIR SOLENOID PLUG. It's located on the end of the Split Air Solenoids harness, near the thermostat housing. What you do is, is run two wires from that connector (put a spade connector on the end of two wires and insert them in the plug) to a new solenoid (take the twin scroll solenoid off your spare car). Then run the vacuum lines from the twin scroll solenoid over to the pipe on the twin scroll pipe on the turbo.
3D....is used for an inhibitor switch on the non turbo automatic cars. On a turbo its a signal from the ECU to the Fuel PUmp resistor Relay. Your n/a has no such relay. You don't need to do anything with this pin now or later. UNLESS later you want to put the Fuel Pump Resistor Relay package in the now turbo car. Install it in the rear of the car in the jack area.
So you can see that if you put the turbo ECU in the car right now, you will not harm a darn thing. You install the turbo pressure sensor because they output a different voltage at the same pressure as a turbo pressure sensor and it really messes the idle/timing up .
Right now I'd leave the n/a afm in the car with the Turbo ECU and Turbo pressure sensor. I think it'll work just fine as a daily driver.
05-18-06, 01:54 PM
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HAILERS! You are the MAN!
I gotcha on the injectors / RTEK upgrade / fuel pump / knock control box. I'll definitely contact you before I get deep into that one.
Ok. What are those small changes that need to be made to the NA harness? Do you know where I can buy a boost sensor new? Also: Is the air bypass solenoid valve the same thing as the air bypass relay?
I gotcha on the injectors / RTEK upgrade / fuel pump / knock control box. I'll definitely contact you before I get deep into that one.
Ok. What are those small changes that need to be made to the NA harness? Do you know where I can buy a boost sensor new? Also: Is the air bypass solenoid valve the same thing as the air bypass relay?
05-18-06, 02:04 PM
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OK!
1C: doesn't matter - in fact improves startup
1R: add-in single Knock-Control Unit wire at or before time of conversion
2B: swap turbo pressure sensor in place of na pressure sensor
2K: doesn't matter if a s5 or non-twin scroll turbo is used
2L: doesn't matter
3D: doesn't matter, especially if an aftermarket pump is used
Can you talk a little bit more about the KCU? I know its in the driver's side kick-panel on the turbo. But on the N/A, if I try to install it, is the harness there? Is there sensor already present on the NA motor? How do I go about wiring that sensor in?
DB
1C: doesn't matter - in fact improves startup
1R: add-in single Knock-Control Unit wire at or before time of conversion
2B: swap turbo pressure sensor in place of na pressure sensor
2K: doesn't matter if a s5 or non-twin scroll turbo is used
2L: doesn't matter
3D: doesn't matter, especially if an aftermarket pump is used
Can you talk a little bit more about the KCU? I know its in the driver's side kick-panel on the turbo. But on the N/A, if I try to install it, is the harness there? Is there sensor already present on the NA motor? How do I go about wiring that sensor in?
DB
05-18-06, 02:09 PM
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One thing I left out is WHAT DO I DO FOR THE TURBO SPLIT AIR SOLENOID now that those two wires are going to the Twin Scroll Solenoid?????? Most don't ask because they threw their ACV away and it's a moot point. But, here's what can happen: the solenoid is still there with it's foot long harness. Find a 12v source for one socket. The for the other socket you splice a wire to the Over the Top Switch wire at the ECU and run it to the other socket on the Split Air Solenoid plug. Done.
The Spit Air Solenoid only comes on when the car is in Fifth gear. Piece of cake.
If you HAD put the turbo emissions harness in the car, it would be a mess. You'd have no small plug for the alternator and would have had to run two wire from the alt to either plug X-15 or X-16. Then you would not have had any water temp reading on the gauge because that wire is in the wrong socket on either X-15 or X-16. You'd also have had to cut a brown/red wire in X-15 or X-16 because it would be backfeeding 12vdc to the ECU pin 2B and or the boost sensors brown/red wire, IF no changes were made to X-15 or X-15 plugs. I forget which of them right now. Ain't a gonna look either.
Sorry about the lack of paragraphs/spacing etc.
The Spit Air Solenoid only comes on when the car is in Fifth gear. Piece of cake.
If you HAD put the turbo emissions harness in the car, it would be a mess. You'd have no small plug for the alternator and would have had to run two wire from the alt to either plug X-15 or X-16. Then you would not have had any water temp reading on the gauge because that wire is in the wrong socket on either X-15 or X-16. You'd also have had to cut a brown/red wire in X-15 or X-16 because it would be backfeeding 12vdc to the ECU pin 2B and or the boost sensors brown/red wire, IF no changes were made to X-15 or X-15 plugs. I forget which of them right now. Ain't a gonna look either.
Sorry about the lack of paragraphs/spacing etc.
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