MaxDuo

I figure I'll be going for one of these rather than just a strut bar... But I've been wondering.. For those of you that have these...

I've looked at the CPRacing one for $115... And the Mazdatrix one which is $272.. (+ $50 more for the engine torque brace O_o)

I was wondering if this would be one of the cases of "you get what you pay for" or if they are about the same when it comes to comparing the two..

The CPRacing one looks like it's further away from the engine... A bigger triangle.... I don't really know what this would mean as far as function goes...

I know some of those cheap ebay strut bars you get can be a bit low and contact the alternater somewhat, causing the car to shake a lot... Does anyone know if any of these has a problem with being too near it?

So I know of 2.. Haven't really looked into many others at the moment... If anyone knows of others/has experience with others, I'd appreciate a little info on that..


Thanks for the time

MaxDuo

bump

BDoty311

I have the CP Racing one on my n/a. I think it works just as good as the Mazdatrix one for a lot less money. The only problem I had with it was that it will rub on the stock fan. YOu can either trim the fan, or get an electric one.

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

I like the Mazdatrix one with the torque brace. It is powdercoated and good quality/fitment/welds. Fits real nice and the torque brace is great. Apparently it will fit with any and all accesories.

sub9lulu

iTrader: (7)

i kinda want that one too
i am debating between Cp racing and the mazdatrix one
the mazdatrix got the engine brace thats the only difference
but theres like 200 bucks there

scathcart

I just weld them up myself. Not hard at all.

Don't use the mazdatrix engine brace. Its position is about the WORST I can think of.

MaxDuo

Ugh, a friend logged onto his account on my pc, and then got off.... Then I typed a reply to this window, which was open from earlier, and tried to post, but had to log in, then lost what I sent and all.. COuldn't go back to get it either... Because it changed the page to not having the text thing....


Anyway....




I'm confused by that engine brace... Making the engine move less but putting some vibration through the chassis seems kinda odd....


Anyway... So far it sounds like the CPRacing one is equal in performance.. Except for the clutch fan action there.... Though the 7 I may end up getting (already told it's not gonna be sold to anyone but me...) already has an e-fan... So... No worries there.

So the CPRacing one would be the best deal because of the price so far it seems heh.....

Though the Mazdatrix one looks as though it'd look great with 10AEs and other all white ones...

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

And this is because....

fastrotaries

Yeah don't be so vague!

scathcart

It mounts to the water pump housing. This places drivetrain torque exactly in the worst area.

Racing Beat makes their engine brace to bolt to the rear.... think there's a reason for it?

Big power FC's have a tendency to break irons around the rear upper dowel. One of the significant reasons for this is that the engine is mounted by the center iron, yet the drivetrain torque attempts to twist against the engine mounts. This causes the rear iron, bolted to the drivetrain, to try to twist against the upper dowels. Placing significant torque of the iron aginst the dowel causes the dowel "ear" to fracture off.

Now... let's say we remove some slack from the motion created by drivetrain torque. Why would we place this reductionon the front iron, where a second dowel receives this moment?

Now, before you all jump on my *** on this one, here's the major kicker: by reducing the engine ,movement, you must be placing that stress elsewhere. This movement will be absorbed by the 4 water pump mounting dowels and the alt bracket/wp mounting bolt. This moment will be applyoing a force directly to the water pump housing and assembly... this will at the very least, cause the assembly to shift against its gasket mating surfaces, and eventually, blow a gasket. In the most likely scenario, the absorbtion of the most significant moment will be at the point furthest from the pivot of rocking motion... the upper-most passenger side dowel, which just happens to have the weakest mount. This concentrated moment will apply large levels of stress directly to this "ear".
This ear is already well known for shearing off. excess water pump shaft play / leaning on this stud easily cause it to fracture off, which, in the best scenario, requires a block teardown to replace.

This is an expensive piece, so not very many people will be running it to pop up with stories. In my ignorance, I fabricated a similar mount a wile back, and it cost me an engine seal kit and a front iron, plus down-time.

So why bother running a piece that places load directly onto parts already known for fracture (irons and water pump assembly)? Why not just get the triangulated bar, and attach the RB style of mount directly to the tyraingulation bar by the flywheel? Now you have the best of both worlds.

For all those wishing to argue, please but bear in mind I speak from experience; hard learned self-experience.
(Also, for those who about to claim that detonation is the cause of cracked dowle areas [while also true], how do you explain scenarios when the apex seals, side seals, and corner seals remain completely intact, yet the iron breaks?)

GTU_FAN

I got a cheap OBX-R strut brace... I installed it and it wouldn't fit under the hood. So I had to turn it upside down and then it rubbed against the alternator and caused shitloads of bad vibrations... so now its tilted at an angle that barely misses the alternator and still fits under the hood... needless to say I would have preferred a nicer triangle bar but after all that hassle I'm still amazed by what a difference a strut-bar makes.

MaxDuo

Scath, thanks So a RB engine brace should be able to fit to a triangulated strut bar? If I ever think about making my FC insanely powerful, I'll keep this in consideration

Thanks for the warning against the OBX-R strut brace GTU_FAN.

fcfdfan

I have had the Mazdatrix triangulated strut with the engine brace for several years. Here are my thoughts:

This is a stout, serious, very well engineered, TIG-welded steel piece, not some cheap extruded aluminum rod. A lot of thought and R & D went into its design and construction, if you ask me.

The powdercoating is good quality, but I hated the way is looked over the engine so I had it chromed. Now it is very impressive.

Follow the install instruction exactly or it can be a real bitch to install.

Your ride quality with be changed dramatically. Your car will feel much stiffer and responsive up front.

It's a tighter fit to reach the oil stick, spark plugs, and especially the oil filter (which is bad to begin with). But I still say it's worth the trouble.

To my delight, I just found out that Silverrotor's FD alternator fits right behind it with about 1 mm to spare!
Thanks again Tony!

I've done just about every functional suspension, braking, and handling related mod you can do short of seam welding the frame. The front strut (along with the Cusco rear strut) really helped transform the ride quality of the car. It is solid as a rock at all times. People who have driven my FC say that's how they have dreamed they want their cars to handle. I have pushed the car very hard out here in the canyons and it almost seems to ask for more.

The Mazdatrix catalog/website is correct when it notes that the triangulated strut will compromise ride comfort. Ride quality is stiff to say the least. Street-to-driveway transitions can be rough. Poorly maintained streets and potholes can really jolt the car. My adjustable Konis are on the soft setting and it is still an immensely rigid feel. But the car handling is really tight. Man does it feel good!

As for what scathcart theorizes about the engine brace contributing to dowel failure, I am not convinced. If your engine mounts are in good condition and the engine torqueing effect is properly controlled, I am not convinced that the dowel is threatened. The engine brace link is adjustable and also includes two heavy rubber bushings, so I am not sure that there is a snapping load of engine torque is being transferred into the water pump housing and adjacent dowel that way scathcart imagines.

One the other hand, I disconnected the engine brace link because it transmits so much engine vibration and road noise through the triangulated pieces and firewall into the cabin. So I can't really say that my experience disproves scathcart's theory. Mazdatrix would certainly know. They've been selling these braces for years.

In my opinion, it's a great product. The rear strut is also very beneficial.

Kenteth

Meh, in soviet russia fan trims brace...

RXSevenSymphonies

iTrader: (2)

evileagle

iTrader: (1)

If I recall correctly the RB engine torque brace mounts from the chassis on the drivers side engine bay near the coil in the back. So it wouldn't technically be fitting "to" a triangulated strut bar.

BDoty311

Haha, YOu must have one hell of a fan.

scathcart

No, make your own. RB one will not bolt up.

scathcart

I have witnessed the snapping of the engine dowel housing from excessive power on an undowelled race engine, yet all of the internal seals were undamaged, so this wasn't caused by detonation.
Why do you think the engine mounting was moved from the front iron in first gens, to the center iron in second gens, to the rear iron in cosmo/3rd gens? Its not for ease of mounting; its to reduce the moment created on the dowel pin "ear". This ear has also been strenthened as time progressed by mazda, with the 13B-RE being the most strengthened, so obviously this change in engineering was required.

The largest problem is not with the engine dowels, it is with the water pump dowels. I can snap some pictures of the front iron where the front water pump mounting ear snapped off due to this engine brace mounting position on two different bridegported engines (which were still using stock style engine mounts). After the second engine, we began to re-evaluate the engine bracing.

Again, my theory is based on the expesnive retooling done by Mazda and personal testing done by me under extreme power engines.

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

Yes, there is a reason for it and it has nothing at all to do with the dowells or moments. It is simply located there because that is where most of the movement is and it happens to be out of the way of most everything else. Don't believe me, then ask them as I did years ago when I researched buying these parts.

Engine torque braces do not have any detrimental effects on the dowells at all, regardless of their location.
Most cars I've seen with homemade braces are on the front iron or water pump and have never experienced cracked dowells.
As for the water pump sliding around and causing a leak, that is just stupid...tighten your bolts.

That does not mean it wasn't caused by detonation. That just gives more possiblities.

That is another mighty big and wrong assumption you are making regarding the engine mount locations being moved. If you read the literature from Mazda back when, they state the mounts were moved in the fc from the fb location to cure a resonance at 3500 rpms, and they also gave a similar reason for the fd. There are even bulletins on how to fix the resonance with the fd mounts to keep them from making noise (not that I've ever noticed it with any of them). Chassis design was also a consideration since the front mounts on the fb would not have worked with the steering rack location of the fc.

I've never had any problems with my old 10 AE with 412 rwhp that had this brace for almost three years. Driven plenty hard over the years on road courses. I'm not the only one that does not have any negative experience with this brace either with 'extreme power' applications. I don't know what you mean by "extreme power" engines. 300-400-500 hp? Most guys on here don't make that power and wouldn't be experiencing these associated problems regardless. Could be just poor engine builds, bad tuning, or to much boost you've experienced.

Don't spread bs about assumptions you've made from your experiences, whether it is backed up by apparent technical "knowledge" or not.

Matlock

I see thunder clouds in the future.

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

Thunder clouds often form when it rains bs.

silverrotor

iTrader: (1)

fcfdfan, your welcome! Why didn't you PM to tell me? You know I was awaiting your results. Anyway, I am glad It worked out.

We are currently rebuild my Engine at CP Racing. I see the amount of work that goes Into these bars and all their weld-work. A finished piece of excellence Is what I've repeatively seen.

fcfdfan

THE VOICES IN SOMEBODY'S HEAD ARE ABOUT TO GET THEM IN TROUBLE!!!

fcfdfan

TD, the alternator just squeaks in behind the strut but I'm not running yet and was waiting to give you the full report and post a thread on the project. Thanks again...

...OF COURSE NOW I AM AFRAID TO TORQUE DOWN THAT ALTERNATOR SINCE I MAY BUST OFF THAT DOWEL EAR!