Digi7ech

iTrader: (1)

The TMIC modded thread got me thinking about this.

Where do you think would be a good and what woudl be an ideal spot for water injection?

I was thinking tapping a hole right above the outlet of the TMIC so it shoots straight out the TMIC and down the intake path. Now I would guess that condensation could occur because of the 90 degree turn it's about to do.

I would assume tapping the TB elbow thing woudl be the ideal spot right? Since it's a straight shot after that?

I would probably do the TMIC tapping since it's easier to do and there is more room to work with. Woudl maybe placing it as high as you can maybe help with the possible condensation from that abrupt 90 bend? IF that is even a problem?
Also it would occur before the intake temp sensor so a stock ECU may be able to deal with it better right(calculating correct fuel/etc)?

I assume Post IC is better than pre IC for injection right?


110-115 degree summer is coming and anything I can do to get lower running/intake temps will help keep this car consistent and reliable.
Thx

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

well it is a good idea...but Im not sure of the motivation to do this....

meaning that the cost of a water injection system will be more than a front mount kit (although afront mount CAN be done cheaper than say the cost of Greddy's kit)

but this would work assuming you can get a good signal from the factory ECU to run the injection proportional to engine load...I have only ever seen the systems on cars that have been ems'd

............no no wait - there was one for the show we did were Stewart from CanJam turbo'd a GSL-SE motor and ran no I/C and water injection.......so no doubt you could do this

Digi7ech

iTrader: (1)

I think it's the ease of install and the permanent marks left on the car which I go towards.

The cost for a FMIC generally can be 150-200 for th core then you have piping and then welding and clamps and such. Generally 400-600 after everything from what i've seen if you go more name brand.

Water injection will be a lump kit for 150-300. Long term costs mean nothign to me(buying water/alc).

With Injection I can remove the TMIC and just tap a hole. Then maybe put a screw in a fender or somethign to hold the resevoir.

FMIC requires cutting big holes in your car for piping paths(unless you space the radiator and slip through there).

Also during the summer the heat will be 110+ so air flow needs to get to my radiator the most. I had 220-235 post thermostat temps last year.

I'm thinking that if the injector was placed on the back of the TMIC near the outlet but not too close I will get enough atomization and time to give the stock temp sensor time to read a more accurate number.

Now would lower intake/charge temps help with over all running temps? I would assume a little bit atleast right?

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

Another thing to think about in Arizona with the very high temps is the fact that the air is always going to be hotter right down above the road surface from the heat radiated by the road. The air temp is a few degrees cooler only a couple off feet of the ground. That'll affect cooling as well. The LeMans Mazda Courage has that problem with cooling right now as the big inlets for the radiators come from under the car and grab hot air from near the surface of the road. When you're as hot as Arizona, every couple of extra degrees makes a difference. If you had long intercooler pipes for a front mount, you'd want to wrap them with insulating materials. They pick up engine bay heat and transfer it back into the intake as well.

torean

hmm...in a none IC setup....WI is put right after the turbo outlet....in this case..yes putting the injection post IC is ideal, before IC would cause a drop of temp causiing condensation in the IC itself........zerobanger has a kit he was promoting awhile ago....i have it, but am having second thoughts about the install.... i dislike the idea of having another fluid to keep an eye on....

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

With water injection and no intercooler of any type, I simply dont think you can inject enough water to effect any good cooling. Remember, water is a great heat remover, but you can only inject so much into a mixture before it starts bogging the motor out.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

true true...I was hoping it was going to affect Stewarts performance when we raced but I wasn't that lucky - hehe.....seemed to get the trick done for 8 lap spurts (approx 80 second laps)

as far running this on the street I would say - HELL NO - Im just pointing out that its been done....you'd be filling up your canister every 5 or 6 miles - hehe

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

Well, I do have some experience with secondary injection systems..

Digi7ech

iTrader: (1)

I'm thinking of doing a low psi injection(like 1-4) to help with over all temps.

Just a little worried about consumption. A large resevoir may be needed considering I drive 40 miles oneway to work

I already do premix so forgetting to fill won't be much of a problem.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

I don't doubt it, I didn't mean for any of the things I posted to indicate otherwise.....just pointing out the fact that we ran that setup and it worked on the track...

NOPR

what about just rerouting the windsheild sprayers to spray water onto the intercooler? would it be effective or worth the time?

Digi7ech

iTrader: (1)

You would need to get a high psi nozzle to get an effective mist and it will still not be as effective as injecting into the intake charge itself.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Ideal would be an injector at each runner placed at no greater than a 45deg angle to the runner path as close to the port as possible. That is however is an expensive route, and you mentioned taking an easy route. If that is the case just place it at the TB elbow facing down the intake stream path; only if you are using a high psi pump. Post IC is definatly better than pre IC if you are placing it post compressor. If you want something cheap and effective w/a injection can be done for a mere $4, the cost of methanol if you have some basic parts handy. I have an extra couple gallons you can have if you want to try it Digitech..

Digi7ech

iTrader: (1)

Well I'm still using stock ECU so I don't think the TB mount itself is really functional.
If it was post temp sensor then I'd have to manipulate my fuel maps to compensate for it.

I figure that the top of the IC near the outlet will give me enough distance to get a more accurate reading of the now cooled charge.

This way If I forget to fill up I can still drive without worry of a fuel map being totally off and popping the motor.

I was checking ebay and it seems like most harder to find parts can be had sopme what cheaply there. Strictly water injection will also reduce cost since I then don't have to get ALc/Meth safe fittings/pumps/nozzles/etc

Seems like the hard part is the pump itself and then a resevoir with a low levle warning.
The rest seems to be hose /nozzles/check valve/solenoid/switch for solenoid

Hey rat or anyone using injection.
Can you run up a list of the comopnents of your system?

From an hour on the net I see that
a 40-100psi pump is needed
A check valve for the pressure(not sure of placement or purpose?stop leaking into intake?)
Pressure switch and solenoid to initiate flow
Then end nozzle.

I'm curious if it's like our fuel system in which it has a return line for the excess pressure(fpr/etc). I'm guessing the pump is designed to just hold X pressure and live there instead of a constant flow in which it gets recycled.

I find it hard to have people trying to charge $300-400+ for a pump and a few brass fittings and a solenoid.

Especially since I'm thinking this will be a test thing any way. I'm wondering how the stock ecu will handle possible abrupt temperature changes after a certain psi.

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

I'd put it pre intercooler but post turbo, that way it'll have the longest period of time to cool the air.

I'm not quite sure why this works as well as it does - cars don't like humidity! but anyways, that's what I'd do.

I rigged up a pair of intercooler sprayers using walmart "bug blaster" windshield washer sprayers and the headlight washer tank. They worked WONDERS on dealing with my heatsoaked intercooler but I didn't notice a seat of the pants difference after the first 2-3 seconds of boost so I can't say that they increased my horsepower significantly or at all - just improved horsepower during the first few seconds of throttle.

Maybe they got overwhelmed, maybe they just cooled it before I got on boost. I'd ususally start spraying 5-10 seconds before I got on the throttle.

torean

the problem with WI is u never know how much to inject...too much bogs the engine and too little is not enough....the best way would be to mount them on a SS injector like a lucus unit and control it just like an injector....i read somewhere the amount of water injected is best around 15-20 of air not sure the measuring scale..i'll check again later..

if ur car has a IC...spraying after compressor and before IC is a bad idea....if u dont believe me try this.....take clear bottle with cap, gatorade or whatever....fill it with 40% cold water first then 60% hot water.....close cap....place in fridge or whatever to speed up the process.....what do u notice.....condensation above the water line....same is gonna happen with a IC...if u saturated the air enough that a temp drop across the IC will condensate, the vapors will go into the engine as liquid water instead of a gasous form....worse case..u'll have a puddle of water in ur IC

RXTASY1

With water injection, you will want to mix it with methanol. 50/50.
Get a few different sized nozzles. Start out big and work your way down. You want to choke the engine and then reduce the size of the nozzle until it doesn't stutter anymore.
I have an Aquamist system with an injector amplifier that injects at 10 PSI.
1 gallon fuel cell in the spare tire compartment.
The nozzles are placed right before the throttlebody.

Digi7ech

iTrader: (1)

Ok,
The kits seem a bit scray.
Here are the "injectors"
http://www.coolingmist.com/detailmain.aspx?pid=13
They look like normal misting system reducers/nozzles. If so, then how does the system stop leak down pressure? My fix would be to place the solenoid immediately before the nozzle so the end has minimal water left in to leak. I guess the 45psi check valve will help with left over water draining if placed like this
flow-->Solenoid-->checkvalve-->nozzle
or
Flow-->Checkvalve-->solenoid-->nozzle
Or should I have it before the solenoid to hopefully save it's life a bit?

It looks like I can buy most of the products from the irrigation section from Home Depot. If I stay w/ brass and plastic then alcohol would be acceptable as well.

Then I just have to see if I can source a cheaper boost switch.
http://www.coolingmist.com/detailmain.aspx?pid=11 $39.99
http://www.coolingmist.com/pagedispl...y=boost_switch
Alternatively maybe sourcing a temp switch would be better? That way if air tmeps reach X I can switch it on. Does anyone know of a source for such a product? Temp ranges which to expect? 50-150`F?

Then pump http://www.coolingmist.com/detailmain.aspx?pid=08
$79.99

Hmmm. I'll do some more searching. I really want to try this.

Node

iTrader: (1)

Corey, I'll get you in touch w/ dale from scottsdale industrial pumps. I found a replacement part to handle alcohol injection on toms fd and the owner of the pump place ended up owning a 10th AE, he was at the last BBQ I had and is pretty enthusiastic about his t2.

Tom got his boost switch on ebay for like $10 bucks I think. Works great, can vary it from like 1-20psi or something. Toms kit cost him about $100 if my bad memory serves correct. Or could cost $100 with todays prices. He got a used waterinjection tank and solenoid and boost sensor and some various nozzles. He's always struggled with his kit as it was meant for a low pressure pump and vacuum line to pressurize the tank, and tom ran it with a highpressure pump instead of pressurizing.


Now that I think of it I kinda like a low psi pump (like 6 or 10psi) and just pressurizing it with boost. That gives you your progressive injection.
Another possible way for progressive injection would be to rig up a pressure sensor find the right resistors or whatever to send a progressive voltage to the pump, just have to find out the voltage/psi and the pumps voltage/flow maps. Sounds like too much work for me lol


Elliot, I like your idea of into both runners, could do it into the throttlebody or either intake manifolds, and do NOS type fittings and tubing and just put a barb on the end. Would be pretty hidden. Only thing is the heat between the intake and motor. But if the resevoir is at near ambient temperature then the fluid shouldnt heat up more than the 1 or 2 feet of line/fittings thats under your motor, once it shoots that into the motor in the first half second or whatever itll be cooler water from whereever your line leads.


I'm planning on 50/50 alky/water but may go straight alky after talking it over with rat and trevor.
I had the exact thought as you of just placing it in the tmic elbow for a straight shot into the throttlebody. I'm a little puzzled on how the distribution would be between the rotors.

I'm thinking that I'll use the early 86 overflow tank that I originally planned for waterinjection as my real coolant overflow and build/buy a tank and mount it before the radiator.
Seems like a very logical idea to me. Yes it is over the front wheels and a little high up, but hell a gallon of water is under 10lbs. But you can fit a large tank, it will be in your engine bay, and the radiator and oil cooler are all behind it so once you're moving the airflow will push all the heat rearward and it would only get hot if you sat at a redlight or such. Maybe a nice aluminum sheetmetal tank and ceramic coat the tank to kill heatsoak......lol now thats goign overboard!!!!


-Ben Martin

Node

iTrader: (1)

btw, corey. you have a link to that modded tmic thread?
you seen the pics of the HKS TMIC I bought?
Its just sitting in its shipping box in az

TRRAPLN

Thanks Node for the heads up.
I,m researching water injection for my TII using the stock TMIC and I'm glad to see this thread. I too am confused where to mount the injector. The obvious place to me is in the throttle body inlet housing but I have yet to learn if this location will cause a false reading on the temperature sensor. I've got my parts on hold with the powder coater until I figure out if I wan to drill the hole around the sensor. Seems to me that the water spray would soak the sensor and result in lower temp readings then it actually is.
My next choice was to put it in the TMIC outlet header. This way it would shoot across the cooler cores but have to make a couple of turns before entering the throttle body. I think I can put it in the unused air port with some tubing and clamps. I've read water doesn't like to make turns so i'd like some input on this idea.
Utimately I'm planning on an air to water IC. I then will mount the injector in the inlet tubing with a straight shot to the throttle body. That's down the road.
I'm goin to use a Shurflo pump that has an internal bypass. I'll run it through the pressure switch direct to the pump. The injector line will use a coolingmist check valve and a 2.3gpm nozzle. When the boost activates the switch, the pump will come on and produce 145PSI until boost switches the pump off. I will use a small acumulator tank to maintain pressure and provide even flow to the nozzle.
Also look at using quick connect push-on fittings. They are easy to assemble, rotate for orientaion. Check out McMaster-Carr.
I am using the headlight washer tank. We don't wash headlights in the desert.
Remove the pump, mine was broken, and turn a brass reducer fitting to fit in the rubber grommet the same diameter of the pump. Push in place and connect the push-in fitting, 3/8, for supply to the pump. See pic, it shows a 3/8 tube that I.m going to change to 3/8 poly tubing.
The whole idea is to use water injection as a failsafe for detonation seeing that I managed to blow all six apex seals. It still ran with 65-75 psi!

iceblue

1revin7 - Is that the lower most portion of the LIM you are refering to?

You would agree on the secondary runners only? Seeing as you are using them by the time you reach high boost levels.