Texas_Ace

iTrader: (18)

Ok, i just went out and tried starting it cold and i am now 90% sure it is the classic flooding issues.

I started cranking and got a bunch of nothing. So on a whim i disconnected the fuel pump (have the trunk apart anyways) and then cranked some more. And after a little bit start getting a bang here and there.

Then after some more cranking it suddenly caught. I plugged the fuel pump back in and got it started with a little more work.

So, my question is, how and why is this happening? the fuel system doesn't stay pressureized when the car is off, so how could it flood it while it sits? i also shut it off last time when it was fully warmed up.

Also, would that much flooding drop the compression down to almost nothing?

Basicaly how do i find the problem and fix it?

The idle issue is secondary to this right now (though messing with the BAC i am pretty sure that is the problem.)

toplessFC3Sman

iTrader: (1)

The fuel system DOES stay pressurized after turning the car off, since there's nothing to relieve the pressure besides a leak, which is probably causing your issues. Chances are that the injectors are leaking, and you could have them cleaned, replaced, or just live with it. If you're going to live with it, the best way of doing this is to wire up a switch to the fuel pump relay (lives under the dash almost right above the brake and gas pedals), and to shut the car off, rev up to 3k and flip the switch to kill the fuel pump. That way the injectors will relieve the rail pressure and shouldnt leak too much once the engine stops.

If you need new injectors, you can either try to find some on the forum, or injector.com is where I got the ones for my car... they have the right style (japanese, low-impedance for 86-mid 87, high-impedance for mid 87-88)/size for NA's (440cc/min - stock is 460cc/min but the NA's run pretty rich, so slightly smaller injectors may be an improvement)

Texas_Ace

iTrader: (18)

Really? The fuel system stays pressurized? From what i saw when replacing the fuel pump the the fuel system is on a loop and just runs back to the tank. Or does it keep presure in the system somehow?

If that is the case then injectors would seem to be my problem, i could hope that my sacendairs are the problem and will be fixed when i get my new ones anyday now.

If not then i will try to live with it, at some point i plan on running small boost on it, say an old TII turbo. just something a little better. And then get bigger injectors then.

Also, would having gas in the rotors cause the compression to drop? Because when i crank it at first it seems to have no compression but as i crank it more it seem to get compression on more and more cycles until it catches.

Is that possible? also, would this be killing my seals?

toplessFC3Sman

iTrader: (1)

Excess gas in the engine will cause a loss of compression, so yea, the flooding issue is causing the compression issue.

There is a line that returns to the gas tank, but gas cant freely flow through it. There is a fuel pressure regulator on the end of one of the fuel rails that only lets gas go back to the tank if the rail pressure is higher than the intake pressure + 39psi or so. This is to maintain a constant pressure difference across the injector. However, the FC does not have a system to bleed off pressure once the car is shut off, and the FPR closes up when the pump is shut off to try to maintain pressure.

Texas_Ace

iTrader: (18)

Ok, that makes more sense. And i think that also tells me what my hard starting problem is. After mesing with it i am 90% sure it is flooding.

I also did like you suggested and soaked the BAC in WD-40, and the idle seemed to be a lot lower. I am going to reset the TPS and idle screw and see if i now have it right. Thanks for the idea! Just waiting to heat it up all the way until the mail comes, hopfully the injectors will be in it and i can get this running right.

Thanks once again everyone, i could not have got this far without ya'll!

Richter12x2

iTrader: (1)

If that doesn't fix it, I have a good pair of 480's somewhere, fresh from a rebuild and flow, and they're spot on. They came off my 87, but I upgraded to 720 secondaries, so I just took the best 2 and reused them. I also have some spare bronze phone dial wheels and a clean NA steel hood if you want them, I'll give them to you if you come pick them up. I'm up in Flower Mound, just north of the airport.

Texas_Ace

iTrader: (18)

Check PM's

Texas_Ace

iTrader: (18)

Ok, i just got my secendaires in, as well as the OMP banjo bolts.

SO, i installed both of them, then go to start it and it is flooded like before. So i go ahead and pull the plugs, and decide to put some oil in the holes while i am at it, so i crank it over with a plug out of the front rotor and to my horror hear the classic WHOMP, whomp, whomp, repete. As if an Apex is gone.

But just a day or 2 ago i did the same thing and it soundsed perfect. It has been running a whole of maybe an hour tops since then, is it possible it could have somehow blown an apex?? PLEASE say no.

So i drove it around, and it still had power but due to some lag around 3800 i could not tell if it had lost power or not from yesterday. Though it is possible.

so i then drove it around and made this video of the exahust sound after i drove it? if you can't hear it it seems to run pretty good at about 1500 except for little pops and such every little buit, but they are not super consistant either.

http://www.pballandmore.com/video/100_1761.MOV

Then i shut it off and restarted it and it idled at 750 but REAL rough as you can hear here:

http://www.pballandmore.com/video/100_1763.MOV

Part of that might be some settings but tell me, does that sound like a blown apex? any ideas?

toplessFC3Sman

iTrader: (1)

if you were running and driving around and the car wasnt constantly dieing on you... you havent lost an apex seal

EJayCe996

Geezus you still have that damn hood?

Texas_Ace

iTrader: (18)

Well thats good to hear. Yeah i was driving it around the other day and again a little bit ago, and it still has quite a bit of power too boot, though the lag at 3500 - 4800 keeps you from telling how much is really there. Didn't sie at all or have any problems except the high idle until i came back, shut it down and restarted it. THEN it starts not wanting to stay started and idleing rough again.

The mechanic that worked on the car swears it had all the seals done just before sitting, including the apex seals. is it possible that an apex or other seal could be damaged though? OR, i noticed when i have removed the plugs a few times that they are always real dirty from the oil i have put in the rotors a few times. Is it possible that carbo buildup is causing a rotor to stick? I have heard seafoam works good at cleaning that out?

Though i am almost positive it is some kind of sensor or something lije that. Because when i first start it and it has the high idle it runs fine, smoth, when i step on the gas it reacts right away. basically runs great all around

But after that high-rev start up ends, it gets rough, wants to die, if i step on the gas it doesn't do anything for a second, has pops in the exhaust and basically runs like junk.

I tried resetting the TPS to no avial, tried the idle screw. nothing.

Though i did replace my plug wires, which did seem to help some.

wvumtnbkr

two things! Get the car idleing below 1000 rpms (even if rough)
and...


First: Did you set your timing yet?

Second: mess with the idle mixture screw while it is idling and see if richening it or leaning it out imporves the idle sound.

Do this and get back to us!

Texas_Ace

iTrader: (18)

I would LOVE to know how to get it idleing below 1000rpm. The only time it does this is when it feels like it and then it is really rough. Usually after i have drove it, shut it off, then restarted it.

As for the timing, i set it by the hyanes manual. I pulled the crank sensor, lined up the yellow mark and put it back in. i don't have a timing light, so i guess i will pull cover off and compare it tot he picture a page or 2 ago.

I do know that if i move the crank sensor while it is running the RPM's will change by 1000rpm's. It gets smoother bt then it is also idling at almost 3000rpms as well.

i just can't figure out how it could be that high, the BAC was closed when i pulled it of (if it wasn't all teh way it was just a hair open which should not allow 3000rpms) and no other places for air to get in i can find.

I have got to be missing something really small.

toplessFC3Sman

iTrader: (1)

Pull the TB and inspect it to make sure that its closing all the way. Is the arm on the main TB resting up against the idle-stop screw? If it is, try backing off that screw. If it isnt (and the thermowax system is still on there), twist the thermowax cam to where it wouldnt be affecting the throttle plate or remove the cam entirely and see if it rests up against the idle-stop screw. If so, back out the screw. If not, the TB shaft may be bent, preventing it from closing fully.

Once again, make sure coolant is flowing past the thermowax sensor (although ambient temperature down there in TX should be enough to make it almost fully closed), and adjust the little set-screw between the thermowax cam and rider-arm so that when the engine is fully warm, the cam is just barely not touching the arm from the throttle shaft.

wvumtnbkr

Mess with the idle mixture screw, not the CAS if you have the timing correct.

Texas_Ace

iTrader: (18)

I just had the TB apart when i put the injectors in, i should have thought to look at it then, i will do that now. At this point that is the best lead i have.

And yes, the coolent is going over the thermowax, those coolent lines on the TB are hot as heck when it is running.

Yeah, i have an extra one of those on the other car, i will grab it and se that one to mess with it in case the one i have is actually set corectly.

After the mid-day heat wares off it is back out there for some more fun. I am also going to replace the fuel filter, just for the heck of it, that will make for a virtually completely new fuel system.

What are peoples thoughts on running sea-foam though the rotary? i have heard it can help losen stuck apexs and clean up the inside.

toplessFC3Sman

iTrader: (1)

I dont think seafoam will help the issues you have at any rate. There are a lot of things on the TB that you can adjust that may be off and propping the throttle open. Most of them have adjustment just like the TPS

Texas_Ace

iTrader: (18)

The sea-foam was mainly to try and fix the apex that appeared to be bad the other day. I have a hard time beliving it went bad in under an hour, so i figured that maybe with all the carbon that building up on the plugs the apex could be stuck.

I am going to pull the TB apart later today when it cools down some and see what i can find, that really makes sense as i can force the TB closed and the idle drops to about what it should be.

Texas_Ace

iTrader: (18)

Ok, i pulled the TB and after some testing found the thermowax to be bad. I coyuld see by ware marks on it as well that it had not been working.

So i just tightend the screw on it down so it is basically disabled. I also cleaned the TB while i had it off so hopfully this will fix the high idle, as soon as i can get it unflooded i should know. it gets SOOOOO flooded!

Molotovman

iTrader: (49)

Line up the mark and take the blind cap off! I gaurantee you it will be off. Line it up like it is in the picture! It's pretty hard to stab it and have it stay exact. you always need to pop the car and check the alignment.

Texas_Ace

iTrader: (18)

I will go check that now while i let the battery recharge from all this cranking.

I do want ot know why again today my front rotor sounds like it has a bad apex? it was perfect just a few days ago.

Molotovman

iTrader: (49)

If the 86' has a manual PS rack, swap that in and ditch all you PS stuff. The steering rack is pretty easy to change even though it looks like a tough job. You'll probably like the manual steering better. I had it on my first FC, My forearms got huge and I loved the steering feel.

Molotovman

iTrader: (49)

If you had a stuck seal you'd be getting huge pops and flames from the exhaust due to large amounts of unburnt fuel. When it's idling at 1500 and you rev it up, do you get lots of backfires on decel?

I still think your timing is a little off, and definately install a fuel cut switch, just flip it to turn the car off and flip in on right before you crank it to turn it on. It'll probably make you cold start problem go away.

Also, an easy test for leaky injectors. Turnt eh car on, go out to under the hood, hold it at what saounds about right for 3000RPM, Pull the 30A EGI fuse from the fuse box and let the car die. Let it cool down, then put the egi fuse back in and try to start it.

Texas_Ace

iTrader: (18)

I would consider that but the 86 also has power steering. I am going to swap the computers and see if it does anything.

Yesterday i was getting some small pops in the exahust, no fireballs or anything that big though, just little pops and backfires.

I will have to try the EGI trick. I know it is flooded because when i took the TB off today i could smeel the gas in the intake. so it is REALLY flooded.

I actually killed my starter a second ago, will have to get a new one tomorrow, with a lifetime waranty if this hard starting keeps up.When i changed the tranny fluid the other day it looked like th starter is pretty easy to change out, just unscrew it and put new one in. Or is it not so easy?

Molotovman

iTrader: (49)

Small pops and backfires are normal.

The starter is easy to change, it's two bolts and a few electrical connections. Disconnect the battery first, then disconnect the electrical connections on the starter. Take out the bottom bolt- It goes into threads in the back of the engine, then take out the top long bolt and nut(the nut clamps a ground wire to the engine block, don't forget it when you put it back together).

Try to put in a fuel cut switch asap for easier starting. Also it mount help if you add a ground from the battery terminal to the strut tower. Take off one of the four nuts, scratch off some paint and clamp an extar groudn wire on up there.

I don't know if anyone said this before, but make sure your ecu and holding bracket are properly secured down so it can pick up a good ground from there. Thats one of the few places it picks up a ground.