ALTurbo2

This is somewhat of a two part question based on my ignorance of the way our suspension works:

1)What force causes the DTSS to come into play? (purely lateral?)

2)Could lowering the car too much impart too much rear camber causing the DTSS to begin working much sooner than with stock ride height?

Here's the observation:

I've installed Intrax springs and KYBs all around an '88 TII. The rear feels very very squirrelly (sp?). It's almost scary to drive at high speeds. I haven't had the alignment checked yet. This is just a guess at what might be happening. A rear camber correction kit is already on the way. Thoughts, anyone?

Icemark

1. With DTSS, the rear wheels become an active component of the steering system, changing from toe-out during low lateral force cornering to toe-in for extra stability during high lateral acceleration cornering situations and to reduce lift throttle over steer.

2. don't think so.

ALTurbo2

Thanks Mark. I've decided to install poly bushings all around (including the DTSS eliminators) as the present ones have to be very tired. I'm thinking everything will feel much better after that. I'm guessing that putting the newer suspension on exposed weaknesses that the old sloppy setup hid.

Icemark

I personally like the DTSS and how it adds to the handling, but no matter what; either upgraded bushings or even factory replacements should be done on most of our cars by now.

crazyassrx7

i guess bushings are next on my list
i know mine have not been changed...
where can i get them at a good price and how much do they usually run for???

is it big suspension change/? what will i feel different?
sorry for the ignorant question

Relisys190

iTrader: (4)

Crazy. figure your car is 15-20 years hold by now. unless it's been sitting up on jack stands for the past 10 years than your suspension and bushing are more than likely worn out.. i know mine are.. there's no doubt about it. it's gotten to the point where my handling is dangerous at times. I fear i will wreck when going around corners, or even going strait.

-Markus

crazyassrx7

for some crazy reason
i think my suspension is incredible,
and everyone tells me how good it handles other than being rough on bumps ( i have 18's with small low profile tires), my car was handling better than my friends 2003 BMW 325 with wider tires and pirrelli tires

and i have replaced stock struts(4 years ago\) with intrax springs
does this sound unusual to anyone????

but impretty sure that i need the bushings because thats completely right relisys

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Check Mazdatrix.com. You probably won't notice a big difference unless the current bushings are gone. The DTSS eliminators need to be pressed out/in, therefore rear hub assembly needs to be removed. I say like Mark, leave the DTSS alone. Another item. The camber links are @ $60.00 each. I say replace them with the adjustable links @ $88.00 each. That way you can adjust camber on each wheel independently.

f_3s

im new to rx-7's and was wondering what does dtss stand for and is it like nissan's super hicas?

$150FC

ALTurbo2's posts always get more responses than mine :P

crazyassrx7

do the DTSS eliminators have to pressed in/out???
and whats with the rear hub assembly?
this has to be done to put on the bushings or naw???

projekt

where to buy bushings?

SureShot

Maybe the sponsors of this forum - That's the folks in the banner ads up top..
If you do, mention you appreciate their sponsorship.

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

thge dtts bushings always should be replaced when upgrading the suspension. They work good when in good shape (like new) for novice drivers, but are scary for people who really know how to handle a car, especially on the 15 year old dtts bushings which are about disintegrated by now. Making a car handle well and driving it to its limits generally means having predictable i.e. linear handling characteristics. The rear toe changing according to lateral load is anything but linear.

JerryLH3

iTrader: (11)

Best place to buy polyurethane bushings is http://www.suspension.com

The Energy Suspension master kit is only $96, and that's the cheapest I've seen anywhere. You'll still have to do something with DTSS.

And I believe it might have been Ted Koseki that proved the DTSS can give faster lap times if you are very experienced with the system.

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

JerryLH3

iTrader: (11)

This is funny how?

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

This is funny because one guy who knows a bunch technically about 2nd gen rx7's says he is faster with them is proof. I say b.s. Did he test with the same car, same day with both setups. Did the weather, track conditions, tire wear all play a role. How good of a driver is he? To claim proof you better have it. Seems to me that faster track times usually win races, then why doesn't everyone use the stock sytem? I'll tell you why, cuz it sucks and it is slower on the track. Why is it slower? Because it is not linear and therefore not as predictable. Can you find one succesful race car (rx7 or anything) that had the rear toe change a couple times through every corner? Keep looking...

I usually require a bit more evidence. Typically from a driver or even better, many drivers that have the ability (which comes from years of experience in many different setups and cars) to be absolutley consistent to test a car for handling characteristics. Reted may or may not be that driver and frankly I do not care.
I'm no Schumacher but I have years of racing experience in formula cars and even many rx7s and I know what I am more comfortable (and faster) with. btw, so do the pros...

Orange!FD

I don't have anywhere near the kind of experience that either RX-Heven or Ted Koseki have. I was going to say, however, that it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense that DTSS will improve lap times relative to the same car without it. DTSS tends to move the car toward an understeering condition at max cornering loads. That doesn't mean the car understeers; it just means that at higher cornering loads, it understeers more than at lower loading. Conceivably, you could set up the alignment so that at max loading, the car was absolutely neutral (which is demonstrably best for best steady-state cornering), but that would mean it would oversteer dramatically at lower cornering levels, i.e. it would be "twitchy" on the straights. How is this going to improve lap times?

Icemark

No, I often (what maybe 40% of the time) disagree with Ted myself (sorry Ted), but I do prefer driving a FC with the DTSS and feel his tests and experience are right on the moeny for the DTSS.

I stand by my comments in other threads that DTSS is great for the average driver (as a added safety factor) and the experienced FC driver who knows how the system works and can exploit it and use it to his or her high performace driving advantage. I feel the system is very very predicable, and think that it is intresting that the weisacch rear steer is an almost identical system.

And I think that it is funny that people that complain the most about DTSS have only owned a FC for less than 5 years and certinly haven't raced with it that much (what maybe a half dozen track races at the most) or read Mazdatrix blurb about bypassing it.

takerwolf

I want to keep my DTSS and original suspension geometry (camber and all that, on our cars doesn't it stay constant during suspension travel?). My problem is I want to upgrade the springs but don't want to lower the car and change all of that. Is there any performance springs that stay at stock height? (besides I'm already leary of scraping the RB mufflers with stock height, did it once with the stock ones and the RB looks bigger).

JerryLH3

iTrader: (11)

I never said the DTSS was best for everybody. I relayed one person's experience. Maybe he didn't prove it, but I recall reading a couple of years ago about some tests being done between the two.

Mazdatrix

iTrader: (1)

For what it is worth, I have driven both with and w/o, ON race tracks (and a lot on the street).
My first experience (MANY years ago) was an Escort 12hour at Mid-Ohio. Hopped in the car, went a few turns, and said to myself - Wow, that's really weird back there. I could REALLY feel the car change its "set" in the middle of the turn -- it basically was then NOT pointing where I felt it should (trusty butt feel). Thought process then went - "Oh- that's the Dynamic Tracking working - let's see what it does". Pitched it around for the next few turns, got used to it, and essentially did not notice it for the rest of the hour+ driving stint.

I drove my street 86GXL for years before I changed it over. With the DTSS active, I'd lay it over in a turn, and know that it should start the slide right about NOW, but it would NOT, it would turn INTO the corner by itself, THEN start the slide. I prefer the way it is now, with the rear-steer eliminator bushings installed.

Full-boat race cars (http://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/epconv.htm) MUST have full "predictability" -- would not even want to think about trying to drive that car "at the limit" with the rear geometry doing its "own thing" depending on lateral load.

Dave Lemon

Icemark

So, Dave being a long term FC owner and driver, are you saying that you suggest changing the DTSS out of you are using the car as a true race car, but its a matter of personal preferance on keeping it in for street applications?

Mazdatrix

iTrader: (1)

Yes, that pretty well sums it up.

The following is all MY impressions:
"Stock" car, +exhaust + big wheels/tires +shocks, etc.
Very initial corner entry - JUST as the car begins to roll - you can feel the DTSS do a VERY slight change that changes the point of the car in a slight bit more than "normal". As the car continues to transfer weight ("laying over") for the next part of corner entry, all is about normal. As the car is approaching it's maximum weight transfer (JUST about at "steady-state" cornering) the DTSS does another "turn-the-front-in" by changing the rear toe.
The time period here is VERY short. Depending on car set-up, this could potentially decrease mid-corner entry understeer.
Assuming the car is continuing to maximum cornering ability (for ME, that is rear hung out a bit), even with DTSS active, the rear WILL continue to come out to where I want it.
For MYSELF, when the DTSS was active, and I had the car in a long turn, SAFELY close to the "limit", I seemed to often be right in and out of that "turn-the-front" stage -- which gave me a very "sloppy" feel to the car.
It just seems much more "predictable" through the whole cornering process with the rear steer eliminated.

Dave Lemon