why not set the thing to kick in at a set rpm,maybe using the leads from a tach with a shift light,i know you would have to use circutry to boost the signal to drive it.just a thought.and it wount show me what frank said.could you post it?

 

power steering pumps would be the ideal solution as brackets are already avalible for those of use with manual racks... those pumps have also been used (are used) for powering 8,000lb winches on 4x4's so spooling a little 1.2hp load would be trivial. But, this would also add two more hydrolic lines to the engine bay and create more clutter and more expense. (PS pumps aren't the cheapest buggers out there)

I want to see this work because it follows the wankel tradition of going against the grain and making serious power out of tiny packages. I'd just hate to see it become a $4K upgrade from add on parts needed to get it running. Didn't Frank say the original idea was to offer the supercharger at $300? Now we're seeing 800+ Why don't we all wait and see what this thing performs like before trying to "sell" it. Frank is a man on a mission to make it work for his own lusting. If he can mass produce them in the future I think we'd all benefit from it, but untill such a time as the design is drivable I think we should all lay off the business end of this endevor.

 

frank-whats the progress on this?i have been following this thread with some definate interest,and was hoping to find out where you where at with everything.
david

 

frank you havent posted anything about your test yet it was supposed to be last week i think where are you at does anybody know whats going on?

 

The answer to the question may be found on frank's site at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheTeslaTurbineList/

Frank's plea reads like a chain letter. Nothing personal, but, a Mensa should be smarter than to post anything like this. He sounds desperate, and it is sad, but now he says he needs $28000 a month to carry on research. I think it will take more than a do it yourself kit on eBay to correct the situation Read it and decide for yourself.

Cheers, everyone, I hope I'm wrong but when someone talks the talk, then posts a "please send me money", I heard about a single mom who did it and now she has an advice column"; well, I don't think the whole story has been revealed. Thoughts, after you visit the site and read the postings, please

 

Taipan,
Why don't you copy and paste Frank's post, because you can't access that link unless you are a member of that group. Thanks.

 

People, you aren't thinking. God himself couldn't design anything that could spool up to 10k rpms with "virtually no spool up time". The disks have inertia, the air has intertia. Even if you cranked enough power through the electric motor, the sudden speed change would cause all kinds of turbulence and cavitation behind the vanes. No website full of infomercial hype can change that. If Frank would like to explain how he plans on overcoming this, I'll be the first to listen. Since he just brushes it off that tells me either he's letting his excitement get the best of him, or he's a con artist. I'm leaning towards the second. Anyone who wants to give me 28k a month can get the first chance to try this really great nuclear reactor that i've just installed in my car. I'm working out the details right now, but the results look promising. It should only take about a year for me to iron out the details. Don't miss out on this opportunity.

 

What vanes? It's bladeless (ie flat disks). Try building one, you'll see the potential for yourself. I have a post earlier on how to build a ghetto version.

 

the vanes hold the disks

 

And if you really want potential, you should try building my reactor yourself.

 

Please, send me enough info to try it, and I will.

 

Gstar; The link is a must read in my opinion, and too big to paste. It does require subscription but is also easily unsubscribed from as well. For anyone who read the web site this will be an insight at least.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheTeslaTurbineList/

In answer to your request here are unedited examples, judge for yourself, I offer no oinion except, Hello,

From: "Frank Germano" <frank@g...>
Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 9:27 am
Subject: Frank needs some help


Hello list,

This is, in a very big way, one of the most embarrassing emails I will probably ever send in my entire life. It is also one of the most exciting. Those of you who have been with this list since the beginning
know what we have been through in bringing this technology to light. I appreciate just as much now, as when I first created this list, all of your support. This morning, as I was watching the "Today Show", Matt was
doing an interview with a girl named "Karyn". I won't get into the details, other than saying that she was 20,000 dollars in debt and sinking fast. She put up a website and simply ASKED people to help her out and send whatever they could afford to give.Cinderella
Story.something like less than a year later - she is completely out of debt, has a website helping others, a new pending book deal, and still doing interviews. Well.the story hit me pretty hard.

With all the work I've done (as well as my fantastic partners - Martin Dorantes and Guy Letourneau, P.E.) and all of the tremendous support, interest, and investment monies that were originally poured into us to
start this "dream".I've about come to my end. For the very first time in my life, I can't see a way back out, or a way to climb out of this hole, which has never happened to me before. I have always dug my way out of financial and personal messes. I watched both parents die of cancer - slowly, and have gone through two very nasty divorces, and yet, nothing has hit me like this current situation. Anyway - I put up my own "Help Frank Germano" page on my site. Please, no negative comments on this one. I have a dream of bringing Tesla's technology back into the commercial market, and I would hope that by now, most of you on this list do as well.

I am not asking for one single hand-out from ANYONE on this list!!! This list is simply a means of hopefully getting this message out to others. Pass the link around to your friends.pass it on to anyone you think
could actually help. It's a pretty darn big world, and I am sure there are those out there that do, in fact, care and can help. Again, no negative comments, please. You could basically call this my one little ray of hope.

The link: http://www.frank.germano.com/helpfrankgermano.htm

If this crazy idea worked for a young little girl in NY City and helped her to dig out of only credit card debt.I would dare to venture that by the Grace of God.it might just work in helping me bring this technology to the world, as well. I have gone as far as I can, financially with this venture. I am not willing to throw in the towel, just yet. This is in no way related to company policy nor practice. If I can acquire the necessary funds.the dream continues. This is personal. Thanks for your time.

Do not reply to this email with the list. Replies should be addressed to
me, personally - frank@ggermano.com

Sincerely,

Frank

Frank Dominic Germano
Co-founder
International Turbine And Power, LLC
931 Rumsey Avenue, Box 550
Cody, Wyoming 82414
www.frank.germano.com <http://www.frank.germano.com/>
frank@germano.com
Frank Dominic Germano
HC 1, Box 1887
Tafton, PA 18464


And follwed by:
From: "Frank Germano" <frank@germano.com>
Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 12:40 pm
Subject: Phase Two: On-line store at Amazon.com




All,

As the next phase of "whatever" comes into play, if anyone is early
Christmas shopping or whatever.check out the on-line store from
Amazon.com that is now up on my website. Hey - you buy.we get a small
commission check. Small is the operative word here, but, everything goes
towards additional funding for the turbine and pump.
http://www.frank.germano.com/thestore.htm . If you like the darn
thing.buy something from it. There's gadgets, gizmos, tools, power
tools, electronics, etc., and all of it is items that I personally use
and can recommend. No laughing. What a switch.now I'm a darn internet
salesman. No insult intended to anyone who sells this stuff for a
living. If you have some suggestions for other items, let me know.

Also - who has built that little toy project I posted directions for in
one of my last posts?! Care to give me your observations? I would bet
(if someone actually BUILT it!) that the results surprised you. This
little toy should have shown you that an endothermic reaction is
possible on the outlet of the turbine's exhaust. It is Schauberger
Repulsine principle applied to the Tesla turbine.but.it should
significantly increase not only the efficiency of the turbine, it may
just allow it to self-sustain with minimal input charge. No.it is NOT
any form of free energy - just a big way to increase performance.

PS: everything is FINE with me, personally and financially.the email
requesting the "help" is only related to funding ADDITIONAL research and
development on the turbine and pump. Like I said before - it costs ITP
about $28,000.00 per month to function in minimum capacity. Without
additional monies from investors, that can no longer be funded by us
INDIVIDUALLY. We aren't stupid, ya know! Quirky, egocentric, talented,
ambitious - yes.stupid, no. Don't worry.some how I'll find additional
creative financing, as this project is too important and too many new
discoveries have been make to just throw in the towel at this stage. We
always have found a way to stay alive.we'll keep at it as long as there
is an interest in the technology.

Thanks - and buy some stuff from the darn website! Quick!!!

Frank Dominic Germano
Http://www.frank.germano.com/helpfrankgermano.htm

 

Let me clarify my viewpoint on all of this. I would love to see this work. I am very quick to embrace new technology, if it's useful. You won't see me buying a segway anytime soon. Sure, the idea is neat but you need to think it through. Can you imagine lower manhatten at lunchtime if everyone had one of those. Trying to thread you're way through shoulder to shoulder crowds is hard enough when your using your own omnidirectional transportations system( your feet.) Think about how hard it would be if you couldn't sidestep. This is the same kind of thing. I was initally very interested, read his website, did a little reasearch and came up with some questions. Instead of anwsering them and explaining him self, he just brushes them aside. I ask: Wouldn't the spool up time be too long. He says: There is virtually no spool up time. I ask: Don't the disks have inertia? He says: There is virtually no spool up time. I ask: Doesn't the air also have inertia? He says: There is virtually no spool up time. I ask: Even if you could get the disks spinning to extrodinarily high rpms virtually instantly, wouldn't that cause lots of turbulence and cavitation behind the vanes holding the disks to the rod they're mounted on, reducing initial efficency thereby causing lag. He says: There is virtually no spool up time. Read my website. Nikola Tesla was a genius. He is not addressing legitimate concerns that myself, and a few other people have had. As I have said before, I am more than willing to let him tell me why I am wrong. Since he won't, and now he wants money, I don't believe him. Like the segway guy, he just concentrates on hype and tries to ignore anyone who says "What about..."

 

im saddened that frank didnt post about his situation first hand. I have doubts we will be seeing any more posts from him in this fourm, and i think supercharger is going nowhere unless some one else does the R&D on this. I think the theory will work and all, but it sounds like frank was in trouble and in an emergency looking for a market where he could apply the tesla concepts. The clasic story of to little to late.

as for the spool up time, the idea was it will have the same spool up time that a belt driven supercharger has. And that is none. The plan was that the electric motor would have enough power and torque that it could spool up as fast as your engine.
But i dont think our cars could ever power an electric motor that could do that, at least not constantly. even with better alternators and so on.

 

yearrgh,
It's pretty easy to beat up on someone just sitting at your desk or your chair watching TV or something, isn't it? Do the work and understand the operation of the Tesla turbine and invest 1.2 million dollars to date in the R&D and have several units production/commercially ready, and then come at us with negative comments.

Once again, as stated throughout the entire website - not only mine, but several others, as well, including TEBA's, in the history of the Tesla turbine articles, and in three books written on the subject, and the patent information, itself - the Tesla turbine (and pump) operate on boundary layer drag - adhesion and viscosity - fluid or gas tends to want to "stick" to a smooth surface as it is passing over it (in our case, it is the surface of the disks in the rotor pack...in an airplane, it is the fluid - the air - trying to adhere to the wing of the plane). By decreasing the operating fluid's passage - the thickness of the spacing between the disks to the ideal - .030" in width for an air compressor or air turbine or pump - we have now created an interlap of the boundary layer by a small amount. When you say "spool up" time - what the heck does that even pertain to in a Tesla Turbine? Read the information. The Tesla turbine IS NOT a conventional turbine which produces a "lag time" (which in actuallity is the compressor stage building up enough boost to drive the airflow). There IS NO compressor stage in a Tesla turbine (or pump) the unit is simply full of flat, smooth disks, spaced slightly appart with their centers cut out and the disks mounted on a shaft. Pretty simple. Compression is internal, and a function of the volute size and the spacing of the disks, themselves.

So...how can I address your "spool up" time question other than by telling you that it simply doesn't exist in the conventional sense that you are attempting to put it into?! That is why I continually tell you to READ the information already in existance ON the Tesla-type units. Read over the patent information closely. Now, to address "slip" in the diskpack - yes - that does exist, however, almost like a hydro-static transmission, it is an almost instantaneous transfer to movement (i.e. spinning the disks in a circular path and transfering that movement to the shaft). In the horsepower curve, it starts at absolute minimum (dead stop) and goes up linear with the speed of the turbine, reaching it's maximum when the velocity of the incoming fluid is approximately 1/2 the velocity at the periphery of the disks. The pump operates identical to the turbine, except once powered, the fluid is transfered (pumped) from the disk's surface into the volute and out, again, proportionate to the speed of the diskpack at its periphery.

So again - how do you want me to address your issues (?) other than to say 1.) you are not at all familiar with the Tesla Turbine, and 2.) your condition that you are setting before me just simply does not apply to a boundary layer turbine?! Mathematically there IS a small fraction in time where the fluid is "slipping" (not adhering to the metal) around the disk pack. Once the boundary layer has been established, the transfer is virtually instantaneous, proportionate to the speed at the periphery of the disks. How FAST can a pump be brought to full speed? In any pump, under 18", full operating RPM can be attained in seconds (dependent on the drive motor powering it). In a 125 HP turbine, with Propane gas as the combustable drive, the 10" turbine reaches full RPM and HP output in under 4 seconds. That's hopefully enough to answer your question. If you need more information and specifications - email me directly, and I will send you several detailed engineering reports that you can read over.

It's not just "hype" either. These units are fully functional and only await further investor funding to bring to market. I do not (nor does International Turbine And Power, LLC) ignore "what about..." questions - we have already addressed those issues in engineering reports, technical manifests, investor disclosures and third-party engineering verification tests. Will I address technical information requests on an "RX-7" forum? No. Those are addressed directly by ITP to interested parties, but would be far too "off the coarse" for this forum, nor do I wish to waste anyone's time with information in such volume and engineering detail that most would simply not understand it.

Hope this answered part of your question. Any more?

 

Oh...forgot to answer every question that "yearrgh" posted: Inertia? You are probably refering to centrifical and centrifugal forces. Does a merry-go-round exert centrifical force on its riders? Yep. Does it rip appart from its central shaft mounting, or do the seats go flying outward? Nope. Why? It's ENGINEERED to withstand those forces. In the first turbines we constructed, which were designed to operate at 18,000 RPM and under continuous heat of 1,200 F, we experianced not one single failure, other than a bearing giving out due to poor quality control from manufacture. How much tensile force do you think it would take to "rip" appart 304 stainless steel? More than you could imagine. However, the force (from the adhesion/viscosity of the fluid to the disks) is directed RADIALLY, thus reducing the overall transfer of energy, directly to the disks, the center towards the shaft taking the "brunt" of it. You want to ask about "inertia" of the air? Do you mean the incoming fluid (in the turbine) or the "pumped" fluid in the pump? The fluid is tranversing a radial pattern, again. If too much resistance is encountered (i.e. HP increase in the turbine's case, or shear fluid flow in the pumps), the path is simply legnthened...think of the fluid flow in either case as a radial SPRING...it can "flex" and adjust it's tightness (or loseness) dependent on the existing conditions. More torque required(?) - the tighter the radial path...less torque (or energy) used or required - the shorter the path. If you could immagine the path that a string would take in a "yo-yo", this would be similar - if the path was shorter, the string would wind loosly around the shaft...if it had more tension on it, it's path would be longer because it was winding more tightly around the shaft and outward. Lastly, if you really want to understand it and will take the time to read the patent info, and the engineering reports, I will gladly forward them to your individual emails. Cavitation does not occure in the disk pack of either the turbine or the pump - again, it is a smooth radial path that the fluid is taking. Yes, one does have to engineer the dimensions of the turbine or pump for the conditions (either the required HP, or the fluid output in GPM's) but, because only "X" amount of fluid or gas can adhere to any given amount of the disks at any one time, the transition is very smooth and steady - any excess will just simply pass through the diskpack and exit...SMOOTHLY, without the turbulant flow found in conventional units. That was why Tesla originally stated in 1911 - "don't you see how simple it is?"

Sorry for the legnthy posts. Happy Thanksgiving.

 

Now we're talking. Maybe there's been some miscommunication involved in this. When I've said "spool up time" I don't mean it in the regular sense, I just used the term for simplicity to describe the time between the system being effectively inoperative, to the time it is operating at a full level. This would include slip, which you just anwsered for somewhat. As for the disk pack reaching full rpm, I'm still concerened about the time factor. Taking 4 seconds is just too long, for a 1/4 mile run, when you need it to go from max to min to max each time you shift. I don't need precise technical information, my head is too full of my own designs and machinations to worry too much about someone elses. What i'm looking for is recognition of legitimate concerns, and anwsers on how you're addressing them. This is a good start, i hope you continue this way.

 

Please don't take offense.

The folks here on the Forum have mind set on conventional "Blowers". My feeling is this is kind of like speaking to a world of Vacume Tube electronics 50 years ago about merits of transistors. The application has common ground, but the fundamentals are just plain different.

Anyway, cutting to the chase and not have read EVERY post in this thread since it started, is the situation now that:

1. Research as to application to YOUR RX7 is still moving such that you might have a working proto-type in the near future (and can start getting all excited)?

Or

2. Overall research and development needs additional overall funding to allow your Wankle project to progress to a point where a proto-type can be be had?

 

Yearrgh - okay - the time it will take the turbine to "kick in" and supply boost will be less than one second - you see, it will already be spinning at its maximum (or very near to it) speed from the start. Radial energy flow - when required will only slow the turbine down minimally. Then it will simply pick back up to full RPM. Contolling the boost is the damn problem, because, up unitl recently, we haven't found a way to THROTTLE the unit - it just wants to come back to full boost (pump mode) or HP output (turbine mode). Then I came up with a "one-way" valve idea, that effectively stopped the radial spiral effect...this gave us allot of options, and it also acted as a way to have an adeabatic transfer of energy (an almost perfect transfer of heat energy without loss). Clapping-plate-compressor, for short as of now. Anyway...now the turbine is throttle-able.

Think of that yo-yo example...when required, power is transfered no differently than the string on the yo-yo getting pulled snug. The available boost will be there at any time you want it. Now...since someone was so interested in posting the financial assistance requests: How does anyone go to college these days except for grants, etc. (higher degrees) or scholarships? No different in the corporate world - we ask for money from different sources ranging from government contracts, individuals interested in our technology, or investors (Angels or VC's) interested in - basicall - making money off our labors. I have enough personal funds to more than adequately fund this, or any other related projects. I could walk away now and retire if I felt that was what I wanted to do. My request for help or assistance is only in regards to hopefull having some investor "come out of the wood-work" that was otherwise scared by the 9/11 tragedy. Investment monies are very scarse. these days!!! . We (ITP) will continue to hunt and turn over every stone in the hopes of finding corporate or individual investment sources, trust me...it's what we do on a daily basis. You guys actually think I have a day job? This (ITP) is my only "job".

 

I think you misunderstood another question. By inertia, i'm talking about objects in rest tending to stay in rest, etc. not centripital or centrifigul force. I'm not concerned about the thing coming apart, just the time it takes to get it moving. As for the air, it too will resist acceleration. It is not moving radially before the disks start spinning, it's just sitting there. Again, i'm glad that you are starting to address these. As long as you don't ever let the rpm's drop below whatever threshold required to keep the air moving radially then this would be less of a problem. The cavitation would occur behind the vanes that hold the disks to the central shaft. Tapering the trailing edge would probably solve the problem. My main concern isn't about the pump in general, i can see that it works. What i'm concerned with is the requirement of starting and stopping the system. Now that you are addressing some of these, you seem much more legitimate in my mind. This is good, it's depressing when someone who starts out sounding like they have a great idea turns out to be a con artist. Although you still won't be seeing any of my money soon. : )

 

Last post during the Thanksgiving holiday - yes - I am continuing to devolop this unit with personal monies. I have had some interesting results, however, as of yet, this system is not driveable. It does give the wankel one hell of a kick in the butt, however, you can not control it and have it "street-able" just yet. It's mostly due to control (input and output) parameters at this stage. Rear wheel HP went to 212 on the last dyno...but...if it wasn't shut off, and it would have easily climbed higher, I would NOT have an engine, and we are still checking to see what it actually DID do to the engine, in any case. The unit is NOT mounted in the engine bay at this point, as I am still debating on a mechanical (belt) drive version. What I need to do is just drop everything else and concentrate on this one item. Until I re-post after the holidays, let's just let this thread drift down the files. When I have some hard-core numbers and a proper set-up which can be mounted under your car's hood, I'll revive this thread. It's just simply a matter of finding the proper solutions...and engineering it to work effectively. Happy Thanksgiving to all (again!).

 

That about does it for my concerns so far, since they have to do with getting it going and stopping it. Although, as you said, keeping it spinning all the time brings up a whole new set of concerns. I'll have to give it some thought... As for money, it's difficult to ask for it without making people suspicious. Good luck. You still won't see any of mine.

 

Frank, care to post the dyno chart if ya got it?

 

Ok so since you have a working prototype now (sort of) I have a question that i think a lot of people have been wondering about: with the electric motor that i assume you are using now, what is the load on the electrical system?

Also i do have another idea for how to drive the unit:
why not use another tesla turbine in the "engine" application to drive it? It could work from exhaust gas like a conventional turbo but would be much more efficient, right?
Just an idea

Pat

 

I think frank need a beer like the rest of us and let us all give some time over the next week to try and weed out the new problems he has i still want this if it works so i think its safe to say keep up the good work frank you still have followers