SOLVED E-Fan VS stock clutch Fan with FMIC
08-24-15, 01:02 PM
#51
I like using a plug. the taurus fan you can get the plug to go with it.
Read a couple mustang threads and seems that ford does not sell the fan plug separate its part of a sub-harness thats like $100.
wonder if it happens to be the same as a taurus plug hmm?
I already have a 70 amp relay be nothing to try it out
as for as alternator ratings when I bought my FD alternator brand new it came with a spec sheet saying it put out 130+ amps
Read a couple mustang threads and seems that ford does not sell the fan plug separate its part of a sub-harness thats like $100.
wonder if it happens to be the same as a taurus plug hmm?
I already have a 70 amp relay be nothing to try it out
as for as alternator ratings when I bought my FD alternator brand new it came with a spec sheet saying it put out 130+ amps
08-24-15, 04:59 PM
#52
Old [Sch|F]ool
There's definitely a connector separately available, because I've bought them. I can't remember if it came with pigtails or if you had to add three terminals.
08-25-15, 05:40 PM
#57
Old [Sch|F]ool
For sale, here it is on a Humvee radiator.
If that isn't scale enough, here's the topside of the stack. The I/C exhanger fans are dual 10" units.
As I said, I THINK it'll fit over an FC radiator. Might have to do some notching, might have some overhang, but if this sucker doesn't cool your car then nothing will
Peak amps on high is still under 40a. It's very efficient.
If that isn't scale enough, here's the topside of the stack. The I/C exhanger fans are dual 10" units.
As I said, I THINK it'll fit over an FC radiator. Might have to do some notching, might have some overhang, but if this sucker doesn't cool your car then nothing will
Peak amps on high is still under 40a. It's very efficient.
08-25-15, 06:01 PM
#59
MECP Certified Installer
I am going to hop into this discussion I suppose. I think everyone who has spoken has a valid point in at least one post or another. I just want to bring up a few things that have not been addressed.
To start, I have a Bosch alternator rated at 90 amps. I can tell you for a fact that it puts out more than 90 amps. Firstly, it actually has a pulley smaller than stock. Secondly, the voltage regulator on the beast keeps voltage between 13.8 and 13.9 at all rpm, regardless of load. I have turned everything on that I could possibly think of in my car and it doesn't budge, and yes, I used a digital multimeter. Thirdly, I CAN bog my electrical system down and I know that sounds very contradictory to what I said above but I'll get to that in the next paragraph.
As an installer, of course, I have an upgraded audio system. The alpine 4 chan amp I have is fused at 60 amps, but of course it would never pull that unless it's shorted internally. It is rated for 300 watts of output RMS. Let's do a little ohms law!
300/13.8=21.74
So if it was 100% efficient, at max capacity, it would draw 21.74 amps at 13.8 volts. Problem is, it is only going to be about 50% efficient in the real world and it will actually draw around 33 amps of current on full blast. To the conclusion...
Fact is, our RX7's are old, and the electrical portions of the car are obsolete in terms of engineering. Old car problems like corroded light bulb sockets all over the car to even the most obvious garbage grounds.. I could go on and on. If I turn my headlights on the engine experiences a load by the electrical system and the idle drops, same with my power windows, and blower motor, and AC. In my tests before (I have done this several times) turning everything on full blast including the radio, my voltage NEVER drops below 13.8. If my alternator couldn't handle it, the battery would be supplying the current and voltage would drop to 12.6 but it never does.
TL;DR, It's not the damn alternator, it's the car and poor install.
To start, I have a Bosch alternator rated at 90 amps. I can tell you for a fact that it puts out more than 90 amps. Firstly, it actually has a pulley smaller than stock. Secondly, the voltage regulator on the beast keeps voltage between 13.8 and 13.9 at all rpm, regardless of load. I have turned everything on that I could possibly think of in my car and it doesn't budge, and yes, I used a digital multimeter. Thirdly, I CAN bog my electrical system down and I know that sounds very contradictory to what I said above but I'll get to that in the next paragraph.
As an installer, of course, I have an upgraded audio system. The alpine 4 chan amp I have is fused at 60 amps, but of course it would never pull that unless it's shorted internally. It is rated for 300 watts of output RMS. Let's do a little ohms law!
300/13.8=21.74
So if it was 100% efficient, at max capacity, it would draw 21.74 amps at 13.8 volts. Problem is, it is only going to be about 50% efficient in the real world and it will actually draw around 33 amps of current on full blast. To the conclusion...
Fact is, our RX7's are old, and the electrical portions of the car are obsolete in terms of engineering. Old car problems like corroded light bulb sockets all over the car to even the most obvious garbage grounds.. I could go on and on. If I turn my headlights on the engine experiences a load by the electrical system and the idle drops, same with my power windows, and blower motor, and AC. In my tests before (I have done this several times) turning everything on full blast including the radio, my voltage NEVER drops below 13.8. If my alternator couldn't handle it, the battery would be supplying the current and voltage would drop to 12.6 but it never does.
TL;DR, It's not the damn alternator, it's the car and poor install.
08-25-15, 06:25 PM
#60
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16" Advance Auto Parts universal fan. Drove daily all last summer into Fall. No issues.
S4 with FMIC, Koyo rad, stock Alt(probably 15 years old), Big Optima red top.
E-fan controlled by Haltech PS1000. Rock solid temps.
I considered getting a variable speed PWM controlled fan like most modern cars to reduce start up current when the fan kicks on, but in the end I couldn't justify it to myself.
S4 with FMIC, Koyo rad, stock Alt(probably 15 years old), Big Optima red top.
E-fan controlled by Haltech PS1000. Rock solid temps.
I considered getting a variable speed PWM controlled fan like most modern cars to reduce start up current when the fan kicks on, but in the end I couldn't justify it to myself.
08-25-15, 08:20 PM
#61
and i have done the same, here is an RX8 i built with a V mount and all stock radiator with A/C.
it is actually flush with the bottom of the front bumper, the angle makes it appear lower than it really is. i'll probably work out something similar with my FC. and yes it was ducted and enclosed, this was just an illustration of mounting.
it is actually flush with the bottom of the front bumper, the angle makes it appear lower than it really is. i'll probably work out something similar with my FC. and yes it was ducted and enclosed, this was just an illustration of mounting.
I had my undertray off today and measured a good 10"x20" of usable space for a cooler.
In that setup, would the air flow downwards through the intercooler? Is there a low or high pressure for the first foot under the nose?
And did it need fans?
08-26-15, 11:25 AM
#62
MECP Certified Installer
I am going to hop into this discussion I suppose. I think everyone who has spoken has a valid point in at least one post or another. I just want to bring up a few things that have not been addressed.
To start, I have a Bosch alternator rated at 90 amps. I can tell you for a fact that it puts out more than 90 amps. Firstly, it actually has a pulley smaller than stock. Secondly, the voltage regulator on the beast keeps voltage between 13.8 and 13.9 at all rpm, regardless of load. I have turned everything on that I could possibly think of in my car and it doesn't budge, and yes, I used a digital multimeter. Thirdly, I CAN bog my electrical system down and I know that sounds very contradictory to what I said above but I'll get to that in the next paragraph.
As an installer, of course, I have an upgraded audio system. The alpine 4 chan amp I have is fused at 60 amps, but of course it would never pull that unless it's shorted internally. It is rated for 300 watts of output RMS. Let's do a little ohms law!
300/13.8=21.74
So if it was 100% efficient, at max capacity, it would draw 21.74 amps at 13.8 volts. Problem is, it is only going to be about 50% efficient in the real world and it will actually draw around 33 amps of current on full blast. To the conclusion...
Fact is, our RX7's are old, and the electrical portions of the car are obsolete in terms of engineering. Old car problems like corroded light bulb sockets all over the car to even the most obvious garbage grounds.. I could go on and on. If I turn my headlights on the engine experiences a load by the electrical system and the idle drops, same with my power windows, and blower motor, and AC. In my tests before (I have done this several times) turning everything on full blast including the radio, my voltage NEVER drops below 13.8. If my alternator couldn't handle it, the battery would be supplying the current and voltage would drop to 12.6 but it never does.
TL;DR, It's not the damn alternator, it's the car and poor install.
To start, I have a Bosch alternator rated at 90 amps. I can tell you for a fact that it puts out more than 90 amps. Firstly, it actually has a pulley smaller than stock. Secondly, the voltage regulator on the beast keeps voltage between 13.8 and 13.9 at all rpm, regardless of load. I have turned everything on that I could possibly think of in my car and it doesn't budge, and yes, I used a digital multimeter. Thirdly, I CAN bog my electrical system down and I know that sounds very contradictory to what I said above but I'll get to that in the next paragraph.
As an installer, of course, I have an upgraded audio system. The alpine 4 chan amp I have is fused at 60 amps, but of course it would never pull that unless it's shorted internally. It is rated for 300 watts of output RMS. Let's do a little ohms law!
300/13.8=21.74
So if it was 100% efficient, at max capacity, it would draw 21.74 amps at 13.8 volts. Problem is, it is only going to be about 50% efficient in the real world and it will actually draw around 33 amps of current on full blast. To the conclusion...
Fact is, our RX7's are old, and the electrical portions of the car are obsolete in terms of engineering. Old car problems like corroded light bulb sockets all over the car to even the most obvious garbage grounds.. I could go on and on. If I turn my headlights on the engine experiences a load by the electrical system and the idle drops, same with my power windows, and blower motor, and AC. In my tests before (I have done this several times) turning everything on full blast including the radio, my voltage NEVER drops below 13.8. If my alternator couldn't handle it, the battery would be supplying the current and voltage would drop to 12.6 but it never does.
TL;DR, It's not the damn alternator, it's the car and poor install.
08-26-15, 11:41 AM
#63
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rebuttal, to butt again.
i ran into the same thing. i bought a T2 in about 2000, and i put an engine in it, and started driving it, i noticed that the charging volts were low, and cranking speed was low, ie it was showing all the signs of a bad alternator. because i read this forum i put an S5 alternator in it. it helped, but it was still marginal.
time passed, and in one of the engine swaps (i went 20B, and then back to 13B-T), i replaced the charging harness.
replacing the charging harness instantly fixed the charging problem. on the S4 there is a staple splicing the alternator wire to something, and i think that goes bad, and we change the alternator, because we think its marginal, and the bigger alternator masks the problem, to an extent.
i ran into the same thing. i bought a T2 in about 2000, and i put an engine in it, and started driving it, i noticed that the charging volts were low, and cranking speed was low, ie it was showing all the signs of a bad alternator. because i read this forum i put an S5 alternator in it. it helped, but it was still marginal.
time passed, and in one of the engine swaps (i went 20B, and then back to 13B-T), i replaced the charging harness.
replacing the charging harness instantly fixed the charging problem. on the S4 there is a staple splicing the alternator wire to something, and i think that goes bad, and we change the alternator, because we think its marginal, and the bigger alternator masks the problem, to an extent.
08-26-15, 12:13 PM
#64
MECP Certified Installer
rebuttal, to butt again.
i ran into the same thing. i bought a T2 in about 2000, and i put an engine in it, and started driving it, i noticed that the charging volts were low, and cranking speed was low, ie it was showing all the signs of a bad alternator. because i read this forum i put an S5 alternator in it. it helped, but it was still marginal.
time passed, and in one of the engine swaps (i went 20B, and then back to 13B-T), i replaced the charging harness.
replacing the charging harness instantly fixed the charging problem. on the S4 there is a staple splicing the alternator wire to something, and i think that goes bad, and we change the alternator, because we think its marginal, and the bigger alternator masks the problem, to an extent.
i ran into the same thing. i bought a T2 in about 2000, and i put an engine in it, and started driving it, i noticed that the charging volts were low, and cranking speed was low, ie it was showing all the signs of a bad alternator. because i read this forum i put an S5 alternator in it. it helped, but it was still marginal.
time passed, and in one of the engine swaps (i went 20B, and then back to 13B-T), i replaced the charging harness.
replacing the charging harness instantly fixed the charging problem. on the S4 there is a staple splicing the alternator wire to something, and i think that goes bad, and we change the alternator, because we think its marginal, and the bigger alternator masks the problem, to an extent.
I guess if anyone missed my point on the alpine amp, it's very simple.
If I can install a device that draws 33 amps of current, installed with its own wiring of course, and the electrical system doesnt even blink. Turn the headlights on, oh god. Turn the AC on, oh god.
Just as j9fd3s validated my point, it's not the alternator, it's the car!
Last edited by jjwalker; 08-26-15 at 12:18 PM.
08-26-15, 12:30 PM
#65
MECP Certified Installer
rebuttal, to butt again.
i ran into the same thing. i bought a T2 in about 2000, and i put an engine in it, and started driving it, i noticed that the charging volts were low, and cranking speed was low, ie it was showing all the signs of a bad alternator. because i read this forum i put an S5 alternator in it. it helped, but it was still marginal.
time passed, and in one of the engine swaps (i went 20B, and then back to 13B-T), i replaced the charging harness.
replacing the charging harness instantly fixed the charging problem. on the S4 there is a staple splicing the alternator wire to something, and i think that goes bad, and we change the alternator, because we think its marginal, and the bigger alternator masks the problem, to an extent.
i ran into the same thing. i bought a T2 in about 2000, and i put an engine in it, and started driving it, i noticed that the charging volts were low, and cranking speed was low, ie it was showing all the signs of a bad alternator. because i read this forum i put an S5 alternator in it. it helped, but it was still marginal.
time passed, and in one of the engine swaps (i went 20B, and then back to 13B-T), i replaced the charging harness.
replacing the charging harness instantly fixed the charging problem. on the S4 there is a staple splicing the alternator wire to something, and i think that goes bad, and we change the alternator, because we think its marginal, and the bigger alternator masks the problem, to an extent.
08-26-15, 01:10 PM
#66
Old [Sch|F]ool
The staple probably squeezed the wires too tight so the electricity didn't flow.
Kind of like how you should never coil a data line because centrifugal force squishes the 0s into 1s and you get data corruption unless you go to a slower connection speed.
Kind of like how you should never coil a data line because centrifugal force squishes the 0s into 1s and you get data corruption unless you go to a slower connection speed.
08-26-15, 02:05 PM
#67
MECP Certified Installer
Yeah and we need a wire stretcher...
08-26-15, 05:49 PM
#69
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i thought the 1's couldn't make the turn! damn! i've been doing it wrong the whole time
08-26-15, 06:05 PM
#70
rebuttal, to butt again.
i ran into the same thing. i bought a T2 in about 2000, and i put an engine in it, and started driving it, i noticed that the charging volts were low, and cranking speed was low, ie it was showing all the signs of a bad alternator. because i read this forum i put an S5 alternator in it. it helped, but it was still marginal.
time passed, and in one of the engine swaps (i went 20B, and then back to 13B-T), i replaced the charging harness.
replacing the charging harness instantly fixed the charging problem. on the S4 there is a staple splicing the alternator wire to something, and i think that goes bad, and we change the alternator, because we think its marginal, and the bigger alternator masks the problem, to an extent.
i ran into the same thing. i bought a T2 in about 2000, and i put an engine in it, and started driving it, i noticed that the charging volts were low, and cranking speed was low, ie it was showing all the signs of a bad alternator. because i read this forum i put an S5 alternator in it. it helped, but it was still marginal.
time passed, and in one of the engine swaps (i went 20B, and then back to 13B-T), i replaced the charging harness.
replacing the charging harness instantly fixed the charging problem. on the S4 there is a staple splicing the alternator wire to something, and i think that goes bad, and we change the alternator, because we think its marginal, and the bigger alternator masks the problem, to an extent.
Details will help!
thx,
Jack
08-26-15, 07:27 PM
#71
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its been a LONG time, and you need to unwrap the harness, but i think its closer to the fuse block than anywhere else
08-27-15, 10:52 AM
#72
MECP Certified Installer
As far as squishing 0's and 1's, modern can bus installation employs twisted pair construction with a twist about every 1/4 inch. Of course if you where to coil up a data wire, it will have issues because of this crazy phenomena called INDUCTANCE.
08-30-15, 10:11 AM
#73
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In my case, the Pontiac 6000 / Big Oldsmobile / Grand Am/Prix / Fiero / many 90s GMs fan has been dead reliable and cools well. I have put them on 10s of FCs/FBs, and I know there are a LOT of FCs out there running it on my recommendation. We have a semi-local wrecking yard around here that does a "free parts day" (pay $45 and take what you can carry) so I go there and load up on those fans. Often give them away free to those looking for a good solution for their rotary car. I've had one on my FC since 2001 or so when my clutch fan died. Shroud fits the stock FC rad very well and is very easy to mount with some angles.
On my Cosmo I went further. Wanted more granular fan control so I went with a Derale dual 11" fan setup in an aluminium shroud with flaps.
I think it is this one:
Dual Powerpacks : High Output Dual 11" Electric RAD Fan/Aluminum Shroud Kit - 22-1/2"W x 19"H x 4-1/2"D
That way the fans can be spun up in a staggered fashion according to cooling needs. They seem quite energy efficient, but dear FSM do they move air! They will suck a piece of 1/4" plywood to the rad. If Derale is to be believed then each fan will pull 1800 CFM.
Looks like it would fit the FC rad with some trimming.
They also make a PWM version now:
PWM Powerpacks : High Output Dual 11" Electric RAD Fan/Aluminum Shroud w/ Built-in PWM Controller - 22-1/2"W x 19"H x 4-1/2"D
Here's a shamless plug of me installing said fan:
The crappy quality and high profile failures of some high dollar efans is appalling given the availability of inexpensive, durable oem fan units. Popular choices are Taurus, MarkVIII Lincoln, Villager, Volvo, GM etc. You completely get that, as you are also using oem fans from certain GM cars.
The 'efan to end all efans' from the Mercury Villager was a total bust for me. It pulls less current on high than the Taurus does on low. Less air too. I could not use this fan on my N/A vert with A/C and get adequate cooling. Maybe this fan worked fine for thin stock radiators with no A/C?
Some people have no A/C condenser and cooler climates. Any efan will do for them. Wiring is not as critical if your fan only pulls a relatively small say 10-12 amps. Some people have magic radiators and seldom even have their efan activate...(clokker 
).
Some of us however live in a hot, humid climate and want A/C. We have need of a real bastard-of-a-fan that can cool the turbo'd car and also dump the heat from A/C. Taurus and the Mighty MarkVIII fit this bill.
). Some of us however live in a hot, humid climate and want A/C. We have need of a real bastard-of-a-fan that can cool the turbo'd car and also dump the heat from A/C. Taurus and the Mighty MarkVIII fit this bill.
Aaron, do you remember the days when it was Gospel Truth from the old farts on this board that a N/A high compression motor simply could not be turbo'd without guaranteed certain disaster? *Someone* blazed the trail then others followed knowing it was possible if they stuck to solid principles.
Taurus efans are the same.
08-30-15, 04:39 PM
#74
That damn Internet...In a way that's true. One person has success with a thing, then suddenly it's the next rage. However judging by the shear number of problem threads with that fan setup on this forum, I'd say it's a fairly unfortunate fad.
On my Cosmo I went further. Wanted more granular fan control so I went with a Derale dual 11" fan setup in an aluminium shroud with flaps.
I think it is this one:
Dual Powerpacks : High Output Dual 11" Electric RAD Fan/Aluminum Shroud Kit - 22-1/2"W x 19"H x 4-1/2"D
That way the fans can be spun up in a staggered fashion according to cooling needs. They seem quite energy efficient, but dear FSM do they move air! They will suck a piece of 1/4" plywood to the rad. If Derale is to be believed then each fan will pull 1800 CFM.
Looks like it would fit the FC rad with some trimming.
They also make a PWM version now:
PWM Powerpacks : High Output Dual 11" Electric RAD Fan/Aluminum Shroud w/ Built-in PWM Controller - 22-1/2"W x 19"H x 4-1/2"D
Here's a shamless plug of me installing said fan:
Part 27: Cooling System - My 76 Mazda RX-5 Cosmo Restoration - YouTube
Unless the blade design is more efficient, of course. Crappy unshrouded straight blade fans with poor motors might pull 20A, but an efficient OEM fan with a shroud, close tolerance between blade and shroud, might move twice the air at 15A. We all know this though.
The crappy quality and high profile failures of some high dollar efans is appalling given the availability of inexpensive, durable oem fan units. Popular choices are Taurus, MarkVIII Lincoln, Villager, Volvo, GM etc. You completely get that, as you are also using oem fans from certain GM cars.
I remember that bandwagon. I don't believe I commented, because I don't think I had anything worthwhile or nice to say.
Yes, I don't think the GM fan I use would be adequate to cool with an FMIC, A/C and in 35 degree weather. Any of those two, just not all three. Then again that is a real bastard of a cooling scenario which would probably require multiple fans anyway (we often forget Mazda included a small aux fan on A/C equipped cars). Which is why I went bigger and dual with the Cosmo.
Just like the Taurus fan working for some, but there are better choices for most.
Haha, beat me too it!
On my Cosmo I went further. Wanted more granular fan control so I went with a Derale dual 11" fan setup in an aluminium shroud with flaps.
I think it is this one:
Dual Powerpacks : High Output Dual 11" Electric RAD Fan/Aluminum Shroud Kit - 22-1/2"W x 19"H x 4-1/2"D
That way the fans can be spun up in a staggered fashion according to cooling needs. They seem quite energy efficient, but dear FSM do they move air! They will suck a piece of 1/4" plywood to the rad. If Derale is to be believed then each fan will pull 1800 CFM.
Looks like it would fit the FC rad with some trimming.
They also make a PWM version now:
PWM Powerpacks : High Output Dual 11" Electric RAD Fan/Aluminum Shroud w/ Built-in PWM Controller - 22-1/2"W x 19"H x 4-1/2"D
Here's a shamless plug of me installing said fan:
Part 27: Cooling System - My 76 Mazda RX-5 Cosmo Restoration - YouTube
Unless the blade design is more efficient, of course. Crappy unshrouded straight blade fans with poor motors might pull 20A, but an efficient OEM fan with a shroud, close tolerance between blade and shroud, might move twice the air at 15A. We all know this though.
The crappy quality and high profile failures of some high dollar efans is appalling given the availability of inexpensive, durable oem fan units. Popular choices are Taurus, MarkVIII Lincoln, Villager, Volvo, GM etc. You completely get that, as you are also using oem fans from certain GM cars.
I remember that bandwagon. I don't believe I commented, because I don't think I had anything worthwhile or nice to say.
Yes, I don't think the GM fan I use would be adequate to cool with an FMIC, A/C and in 35 degree weather. Any of those two, just not all three. Then again that is a real bastard of a cooling scenario which would probably require multiple fans anyway (we often forget Mazda included a small aux fan on A/C equipped cars). Which is why I went bigger and dual with the Cosmo.
Just like the Taurus fan working for some, but there are better choices for most.
Haha, beat me too it!
If someone is unable to wire a 2-speed Taurus fan @25 amps, how in the world can they handle this Derale?
One other cool thing: I've been watching that Derale PWM system progress for some time. Derales's PWM system seems to be licensed or even perhaps manufactured by DC Controls. The patent number cited in Derale literature is registered to Brian Baskin, owner of DC Controls.
Constant Temperature Controllers and Accessories
08-30-15, 06:00 PM
#75
Old [Sch|F]ool
The Derales are also junk.
Electric fans are one place where the aftermarket simply cannot match the OEMs' level. The OEMs concentrate hard on airflow efficiency because it allows a smaller radiator/smaller frontal area/quieter operation (noise is wasted energy).
On the other hand, if you price out what OEM fans cost for new replacement, the Derale wouldn/t seem very expensive. The GT500 fan I posted is an outlier because they are good AND inexpensive. The fans I run are something like $500 if bought new. Fortunately, Chrysler saw fit to put about seven million of them out on the roads
Electric fans are one place where the aftermarket simply cannot match the OEMs' level. The OEMs concentrate hard on airflow efficiency because it allows a smaller radiator/smaller frontal area/quieter operation (noise is wasted energy).
On the other hand, if you price out what OEM fans cost for new replacement, the Derale wouldn/t seem very expensive. The GT500 fan I posted is an outlier because they are good AND inexpensive. The fans I run are something like $500 if bought new. Fortunately, Chrysler saw fit to put about seven million of them out on the roads
Last edited by peejay; 08-30-15 at 06:05 PM.