SOLVED E-Fan VS stock clutch Fan with FMIC
08-30-15, 09:44 PM
#76
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My info/data comes from the early days of watercooling PCs, long before you could just buy kits and slap em on.
The most popular radiator was the heater core from a '60s Pontiac Bonneville and aquarium pumps were about the only choice.
There were a couple of truly obsessive guys who extensively sensored their machines and then tried endless variations of fan config/speed, loop routing (video before or after the CPU?), etc.
Anyway, it was generally decided that you wanted the distance of the fan off the core to be between 1 and 2 times the diameter of the blade hub. Closer and performance decreased but further than 2 times away just stayed the same.
We don't have the luxury of such space. I couldn't mount my fan the theoretically correct distance of 6" because the engine is in the way.
Deacon's elegant solution is about as close to ideal as we can get.
BUT, it should be noted that data and conclusions from those experiments is not directly comparable to a car...your PC is (presumably) stationary and ambient temp is easier to control. Also, PC fans have much smaller hubs than our efans do.
It is undeniable however that moving the fan further away has a beneficial effect and is worth exploring if you have some space to play with.
The most popular radiator was the heater core from a '60s Pontiac Bonneville and aquarium pumps were about the only choice.
There were a couple of truly obsessive guys who extensively sensored their machines and then tried endless variations of fan config/speed, loop routing (video before or after the CPU?), etc.
Anyway, it was generally decided that you wanted the distance of the fan off the core to be between 1 and 2 times the diameter of the blade hub. Closer and performance decreased but further than 2 times away just stayed the same.
We don't have the luxury of such space. I couldn't mount my fan the theoretically correct distance of 6" because the engine is in the way.
Deacon's elegant solution is about as close to ideal as we can get.
BUT, it should be noted that data and conclusions from those experiments is not directly comparable to a car...your PC is (presumably) stationary and ambient temp is easier to control. Also, PC fans have much smaller hubs than our efans do.
It is undeniable however that moving the fan further away has a beneficial effect and is worth exploring if you have some space to play with.
1: evaporator fan blades moving the fan blade in and out of the shroud changes how much air is can move!
2: condenser fan as well same principles so i can see how ducting would make a difference as well.
I like the link about using the stock fan shroud but makes for a tight engine bay wow!
I agree lost of good info came out.
good points on
1: using relays
2: soldering connections
3: proper wire sizing base one amp draw and length of wire run for load
(witch is how mine was wired btw. ran a wire off the zero gauge to my 60amp fuse, then relay to high speed fan. one this i never did was take an amp reading of the fan... it might have been on its way out but eather way i could not cool my car at highway speeds with out my clutch fan.
rebuttal, to butt again.
i ran into the same thing. i bought a T2 in about 2000, and i put an engine in it, and started driving it, i noticed that the charging volts were low, and cranking speed was low, ie it was showing all the signs of a bad alternator. because i read this forum i put an S5 alternator in it. it helped, but it was still marginal.
time passed, and in one of the engine swaps (i went 20B, and then back to 13B-T), i replaced the charging harness.
replacing the charging harness instantly fixed the charging problem. on the S4 there is a staple splicing the alternator wire to something, and i think that goes bad, and we change the alternator, because we think its marginal, and the bigger alternator masks the problem, to an extent.
i ran into the same thing. i bought a T2 in about 2000, and i put an engine in it, and started driving it, i noticed that the charging volts were low, and cranking speed was low, ie it was showing all the signs of a bad alternator. because i read this forum i put an S5 alternator in it. it helped, but it was still marginal.
time passed, and in one of the engine swaps (i went 20B, and then back to 13B-T), i replaced the charging harness.
replacing the charging harness instantly fixed the charging problem. on the S4 there is a staple splicing the alternator wire to something, and i think that goes bad, and we change the alternator, because we think its marginal, and the bigger alternator masks the problem, to an extent.
)and i think i bumped up my volts by .30amps.
but a good things to inspect!!!
08-31-15, 06:03 PM
#77
kinda question the data, i'm sure mazda spent some time at least as well as other car manufaturers to fan placement. both series 6/7 and RX8 e-fans sit 2-3" from the core, as do many other car manufacturer fans. space may play a role but some of them have room to move them back but chose not to.
i know my fan still pulls a ton of air with a similar placement as the above mentioned setups, only difference is my fan has about a 10% loss of coverage of the core. however when it is working properly it never had any issues with cooling even with the stock radiator and sandwiched front mount just in front of the radiator. that with a .70A/R turbo putting out about 350whp, though it is easily capable of 550+.
i know my fan still pulls a ton of air with a similar placement as the above mentioned setups, only difference is my fan has about a 10% loss of coverage of the core. however when it is working properly it never had any issues with cooling even with the stock radiator and sandwiched front mount just in front of the radiator. that with a .70A/R turbo putting out about 350whp, though it is easily capable of 550+.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 08-31-15 at 06:09 PM.
08-31-15, 07:17 PM
#78
kinda question the data, i'm sure mazda spent some time at least as well as other car manufaturers to fan placement. both series 6/7 and RX8 e-fans sit 2-3" from the core, as do many other car manufacturer fans. space may play a role but some of them have room to move them back but chose not to.
i know my fan still pulls a ton of air with a similar placement as the above mentioned setups, only difference is my fan has about a 10% loss of coverage of the core. however when it is working properly it never had any issues with cooling even with the stock radiator and sandwiched front mount just in front of the radiator. that with a .70A/R turbo putting out about 350whp, though it is easily capable of 550+.
i know my fan still pulls a ton of air with a similar placement as the above mentioned setups, only difference is my fan has about a 10% loss of coverage of the core. however when it is working properly it never had any issues with cooling even with the stock radiator and sandwiched front mount just in front of the radiator. that with a .70A/R turbo putting out about 350whp, though it is easily capable of 550+.
09-01-15, 08:56 AM
#80
actually i think an OEM fan is better than the aftermarket, as Mr Lyger alluded to, the black magic fan, which used to be popular, is also a POS. my friend bought one new, and in like 1,000miles it had already been repaired 3 times, and the car had gotten hot 3 times, which is just unacceptable. (the circuit board fried, the motor seized, and then it caught on fire once too)
i also have happened to notice that the JDM tuners tend to stick with the stock fan, although when they do go E fan, they use the FD fans.
i also have happened to notice that the JDM tuners tend to stick with the stock fan, although when they do go E fan, they use the FD fans.
No issues at all, in fact, I used this fan without an engine tray, no thermostat, unplugged bypass, in a constant 90F weather without a single problem.
09-01-15, 10:19 AM
#81
i've had: fuse holders melt even when wired properly, fan control relays fail and fan motors fail.
there's not much else that can really fail that i haven't seen fail on them. we did get them to send us a new control relay once for one that failed just within the 1 year warranty period. once inside i noted that the spade connector quality was sub par and replaced the terminals with gold plated ones and that cured the relay issue in my own fan. but it was only a temporary fix because a couple years later the fan motor simply wore out. how the **** does an e-fan motor wear out? you got me, but this flex-a-lite black magic fan did.
the fact you can buy all these parts induvidually might tell ya something about their known quality issues.
before anyone assumes you can wire one of these fans improperly, even a ******* monkey can wire a positive and negative wire. well, most monkeys, i've still seen plenty who managed to **** that up with shitty crimps or loose connections.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 09-01-15 at 10:36 AM.
09-01-15, 12:21 PM
#83
they probably were quality back then, nowadays flex-a-lite is cheap chinese like **** quality even if it is made in the USA(which im gonna call bullshit on, they may be assembled in the US but the quality sure reminds me of a poor knockoff chinese attempt at a 1/10 cost part, the chinese at least eventually get it right but flex a lite apparently is working backwards in quality while still raising their prices).
i've had: fuse holders melt even when wired properly, fan control relays fail and fan motors fail.
there's not much else that can really fail that i haven't seen fail on them. we did get them to send us a new control relay once for one that failed just within the 1 year warranty period. once inside i noted that the spade connector quality was sub par and replaced the terminals with gold plated ones and that cured the relay issue in my own fan. but it was only a temporary fix because a couple years later the fan motor simply wore out. how the **** does an e-fan motor wear out? you got me, but this flex-a-lite black magic fan did.
the fact you can buy all these parts induvidually might tell ya something about their known quality issues.
before anyone assumes you can wire one of these fans improperly, even a ******* monkey can wire a positive and negative wire. well, most monkeys, i've still seen plenty who managed to **** that up with shitty crimps or loose connections.
i've had: fuse holders melt even when wired properly, fan control relays fail and fan motors fail.
there's not much else that can really fail that i haven't seen fail on them. we did get them to send us a new control relay once for one that failed just within the 1 year warranty period. once inside i noted that the spade connector quality was sub par and replaced the terminals with gold plated ones and that cured the relay issue in my own fan. but it was only a temporary fix because a couple years later the fan motor simply wore out. how the **** does an e-fan motor wear out? you got me, but this flex-a-lite black magic fan did.
the fact you can buy all these parts induvidually might tell ya something about their known quality issues.
before anyone assumes you can wire one of these fans improperly, even a ******* monkey can wire a positive and negative wire. well, most monkeys, i've still seen plenty who managed to **** that up with shitty crimps or loose connections.
At that time, yes, factory oil cooler, factory AC, PS, and no FMIC. I did experience coolant temp issues when I went with a FMIC. Pulled the FMIC and never looked back.
09-01-15, 01:39 PM
#84
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09-01-15, 07:46 PM
#85
Gotta love OEM durability.
I kludged a 14" Hayden into the oem shroud using and put another 40k on the car before I sold it.
09-01-15, 09:01 PM
#86
I had a 1995 V6 Honduh Accord V6. Bought it brand new. Somewhere North of 300k miles the OEM fan took a ****, so it can happen. I calculated that 300k at an average of 45mph (real number from an obdII connected device in my current car) in Texas with the A/C on 60% of the time equaled to 4000 hours of run time.
Gotta love OEM durability.
I kludged a 14" Hayden into the oem shroud using and put another 40k on the car before I sold it.
Gotta love OEM durability.
I kludged a 14" Hayden into the oem shroud using and put another 40k on the car before I sold it.
09-03-15, 07:35 AM
#87
For my personal information, what died on the black magic fan, the motor? In retrospect, I am only using the shroud, motor and blade of my original black magic fan, and it gets controlled through the haltech. Maybe that's why I've had such a good luck with it?
09-05-15, 10:05 AM
#89
Engine, Not Motor
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My personal favourite for fans was the unknown junkyard fan zip tied to the rad core (not the end tanks). Then 14 or 16 gauge obviously well used interior speaker wire poorly soldered directly to the terminals of the fan, with the connector cavity then packed solid by what I think was tile grout. This connected to a residential 120V 15A light switch (ivory white) which was shoved underneath the stereo. Power source was a wire-nutted connection to the cigar lighter +12V, ground ended up at the stereo surround trim mounting screw. The plastic in that area was melted. Guy said "It's been like that for years. Works fine".Wish I had a camera handy at the time but it was in someone's driveway.
The whole car was a mess like this. I refused to touch it.
09-05-15, 10:23 AM
#90
The wiring I've seen on some clustershag cars would tend to disagree with that. My personal favourite for fans was the unknown junkyard fan zip tied to the rad core (not the end tanks). Then 14 or 16 gauge obviously well used interior speaker wire poorly soldered directly to the terminals of the fan, with the connector cavity then packed solid by what I think was tile grout. This connected to a residential 120V 15A light switch (ivory white) which was shoved underneath the stereo. Power source was a wire-nutted connection to the cigar lighter +12V, ground ended up at the stereo surround trim mounting screw. The plastic in that area was melted. Guy said "It's been like that for years. Works fine".
Wish I had a camera handy at the time but it was in someone's driveway.
The whole car was a mess like this. I refused to touch it.
My personal favourite for fans was the unknown junkyard fan zip tied to the rad core (not the end tanks). Then 14 or 16 gauge obviously well used interior speaker wire poorly soldered directly to the terminals of the fan, with the connector cavity then packed solid by what I think was tile grout. This connected to a residential 120V 15A light switch (ivory white) which was shoved underneath the stereo. Power source was a wire-nutted connection to the cigar lighter +12V, ground ended up at the stereo surround trim mounting screw. The plastic in that area was melted. Guy said "It's been like that for years. Works fine".Wish I had a camera handy at the time but it was in someone's driveway.
The whole car was a mess like this. I refused to touch it.
16 gauge wiring? lol, talk about a fire hazard.
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