Roen

iTrader: (2)

For those of you with single piston front brakes and solid rear rotors, what aftermarket rotor upgrades are there for the rear?

Chaotic_FC

go get evo brembro brakes
i'm gunna do that

Roen

iTrader: (2)

Sorry, I should've said, while keeping the stock caliper.

Nitrometano

I brought my brake discs from R1 Concepts

Roen

iTrader: (2)

How are they different?

Nitrometano

vented, slotted and drilled

Black91n/a

While keeping the stock calipers, not much, all it'll be is basically useless drilled and/or slotted rotors. You could always just switch over to the stock vented rears, it's not a hard swap, and you can get fresh rebuilt caliers and shiny new rotors at the same time. Plain rotors are definetely the way to go. You can get some rediculously cheap but decent quality ones from NAPA or other auto parts places (should be able to get some for about $100 for the whole car), or Brembos from Tire Rack for about $150. Even if they don't last as long it's still more economical and there's not really a performance advantage of drilling or slotting, and they'll crack sooner and reduce pad life. They can help stave of pad glazing, but you shouldn't be running pads that get to that point anyway.

At one point I tracked my car with full on race pads (Porterfield R4), fresh 550*F boiling point brake fluid with the 4 piston front calipers and solid rears (didn't get the parts in time to do the rears). I had a little bit of fade in the rear (pedal went down an inch or two after 4 track sessions in a day), and that's with some moderate street tires (Kumho SPT's in a 225/45/17). The edges of the pads were a little bit "crumbly". The front pads looked better and there was no air bubbles in the fluid there. So it would seem that having the vents in the rear is necessary for hard track use.

I'd reccomend just swapping to the stock vented rears for sure.

sunshine

iTrader: (3)

I agree with the Black91n/a. We run ITS and SM Miatas in various endurance races, and the solid rotor simply cannot take the abuse over a prolonged period of time. For regular driving its fine, but if you plan to track the car (and I know you do), a vented rotor is a huge step in the right direction. Other than that, I dont think you need to do anything else back there.
-a

Roen

iTrader: (2)

I can't swap to vented rears, well I can, but I don't want to take the points hit in NASA PT. I'm pretty much at the limit without being bumped a class.

Black91n/a

There's really not much you can do on solid rotors. You'll likely end up struggling with it for a while, spending lots of money on cooked pads, then upgrade in the end. I'd be inclined to just take the points to be sure that I've got good brakes (I hate driving cars that don't have good brakes).

There's a guy in the Canadian section that ran a 4 lug race car, so he likely had the stock rear brakes, so maybe ask him how he dealt with it. It's either 01Racing or 23Racer, I don't remember which one off the top of my head.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

I knew someone had been running a 4 lug racecar, I just didn't know where he was. Thanks for the info.

sunshine

iTrader: (3)

Your only other option at this point is heat control. Not sure about your class rules...but if they allow, you can do some ducting.
-a

Roen

iTrader: (2)

Nope...to the best of my knowledge, no ducting without points.

It's come down to either brakes or sway bars, I think I'm going to change the brakes to 4 piston calipers and run stock sway bars.

Black91n/a

That's what I'd do, besides, lots of racers use stock swaybars and do just fine. Many take the rear one off too.

Asterisk

iTrader: (3)

Why would you have to tell them about it? Seriously, it's "Stock relacement" part, and didnt the GTU's come with the vented rears? Or was it only the T2? Some people with N/A to Turbo swaps also seem to get "points" when they could just say "it's a stock T2" and no one would really care.

EDIT: Unless they still have the N/A drivetrain, then it could be considered cheating ecause it's lighter, but it's a lot more fragile, and more prone to breaking, so it's a diminishing returns type of thing.

EDIT#2: Well, I guess here in the US, some of the rules kinda suck and people are really **** about them. They could give people some slack for once.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

Can't take off sways either. That's points too. Any change to sway bars except bushings is points.

Black91n/a

They're really restrictive aren't they? Anyway, you can make it work with stock sways and adjust with spring rates.

Anything that wasn't stock on the absolute base model car is considered an upgrade and gets points, and it's easy to tell the difference, and cheating's not worth it when they catch you and toss you out. Maybe if you really want to get into it, if it's not points, you could get some custom larger disks (or find some off another car that fit) and space the caliper out.

SCCAITS

iTrader: (3)

#27 No-Points Modification
"Brake duct addition or modificatoin, including electric fans (water sprayers are illegal)"



Post that on any racing forum and see what kind of response you get.

NASA says it well in the CCR and the SCCA has similar language...

"NASA considers good sportsmanship to be the very essence of the sport, and the basic foundation of any competition. Competitors are expected to hold the qualities of fairness, honesty, courtesy, and justice to be more important than the outcome of the race. Real sportsmen/women may have an intense desire to win, but not at all costs. A person that has won by cheating, or by any means less than honorable, has simply found a way to acquire a trophy, but not a victory. The actual winner is the true sportsman/woman that might go home with nothing in his/her hands, yet his/her heart is overflowing with satisfaction. This satisfaction comes from understanding that the value of winning is not found in a trophy, but rather in the sheer pleasure of playing the sport with honesty, fairness, and integrity. This affords total fulfillment during times of introspection, and validates that fulfillment by earning valuable respect from fellow competitors."

"No form of unsportsmanlike conduct will be tolerated at any NASA event. Competitors that show poor sportsmanship due to a mistake in judgment will be educated, and punished if necessary. However, competitors that commit repeated acts of unsportsmanlike conduct cannot be educated; therefore expulsion is most likely the only remedy."

SCCAITS

iTrader: (3)

Nah, the IT rules are MUCH MORE restrictive. That's one reason I left IT and went PT.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

I was hoping that might work as well, or just find some way to make vented rotors fit the non-vented calipers.

It's down to a matter of two points, I could do with those two points:

Brakes
Sway Bars
Dashboard/Center Console/Glove Box Removal
Rear 3-Point Strut Bar

I'm choosing brakes, but if I could find a vented rotor that works, then I may just do sway bars.

I'm also going to try to cross a STS2 autox car into TTE, but that's even more annoying, since the GTUs starts off +8 out of the +19 allowed to stay in class. It's come down to me swapping shocks, springs, ecu, sway bars, and catalytic convertor between the two events. I'm also removing the strut bars and the cold airbox, so I'm also thinking of ways on that car to facilitate the change. I'm using the other 11 points on tires and exhaust instead.

EDIT: Now that got me thinking about possibilities.

How about converting the front to 5-lug, using the AWR rotors with the single piston calipers and leaving the rear 4-lug, and using the Racing Brake rotors? Adding the appropriate ducting and they just might be able to keep cool.

That just might work......that being the case what out of the three do you think is the most important?

Sway Bars
Dashboard/Center Console/Glove Box Removal (I'm leaning towards this one)
Rear 3-Point Strut Bar

Asterisk

iTrader: (3)

I know, I know... I'm sorry, I'm Russian, I cant help it. Rules ARE rules, but some I just dont see why they make such a big deal about it.

EDIT: Instead of having this headache, why did you not just get a 5 lug car in the first place? Like a GTU's? It would save you so much trouble.

And I dont get the point system. The BASE is a stock car, albeit with crappy brakes and no LSD. The GTU's and the TurboII are faster, and have better components, but the point is, THEY ARE STILL STOCK! Why would they get points added? They are still stock cars... wtf?

It's like, you come with a base, and the other guy comes with a T2. Both are stock, so both should run in a stock class. It's just the model that's different!

That is why I said what I said, take a base and do a 5 lug swap, and you are technically still "Stock" because the other car came like that. NASA sounded better for a while, but SCCA seems to have easier rules, that make a lot more sense.

It's like the one thing with the 1.8 swap into earlier miatas. It's considered "illegal" or something in some nasa class, and this pisses me off. I undertand a rotary miata being illegal, but a 1.8 swap? Why?

Roen

iTrader: (2)

They start with points. Points are based off the base model for the car, not the stock condition of the car you buy. A GTUs for example starts with 14 points. A S5 GXL starts with 9 points. A S4 GTU starts with 12. A Sport Model starts with 10 points. A S4 GTU starts with 13. Thankfully, the 5-lug is a free modification.

S5 GTUs:

Tranny 3
LSD 3
Brakes 2
Springs 2
Sway Bars 2
Spoiler 2

S4/S5 GXL

Brakes 2
Shocks 3
Springs 2
Sway Bars 2
S4 LSD 3

S4 Sport/GTU

Brakes 2
Springs 2
Sway Bars 2
Spoiler 2
Air Dam 2
GTU LSD 3

The GTUs and the S4 Sport spoilers are different than the S5 Base Spoilers in composition.......kinda sucks, but yeah, those will cost you points.

EDIT: It's not a matter of if they are stock or not. It's a matter of the components on each car being equal. If not, the car that has more advantages gets point penalties meant to reclassify the car. You don't seriously think a GTUs and a Base will perform the same around a track, do you?

The reason why I don't want to do a full 5-lug swap? Because there are no vented 5-lug rotor options that utilize the non-vented rear caliper, but there is one option on the 4-lug (Racing Brake). As soon as I change the caliper to use the 5-lug vented rotor derivations, that's a points penalty.

NASA I like more because it gives you more freedom in the build. That's why there are no "stock" classes in NASA. It doesn't matter if the car is stock or not, it matters what the car has on it. That right there equalizes the models by applying penalties to cars with higher trims, evening out the performance vs. modification battle. For example, there's no way a Civic CX and a Civic Type R, or an Integra LS and a Integra Type R should be classed equally, even if they are FF, cheap econoboxes and Hondas. The performance between the two is just too different.

BTW, Engine swaps are never illegal, you just have to get your cars reclassed.

Black91n/a

Oh, it's a 4 lug car! Just swap to the base model S5 brakes and 5 lug hubs. Same front rotors as with the 4 piston caliper cars, still solid rear rotor, but they're bigger. Since that came on a base model car wouldn't that qualify as a no points update/backdate? It'd be better than the 4 lug brakes and will save you points.

I wouldn't worry about braces, I'd rather have the points for something else.

The calipers are far too thin to have space for venting. Maybe if you ran really thin pads, but I doubt it. If it was possible the vents would be very narrow and restrictive and the friction face thickness would be very thin leading to strength and life problems. That and it'd be very expensive as they'd need to be custom rotors. Not worth it to save 2 points.

At least in ITS you can use the good brakes, a good diff and such with no penalties. The PT/TT does give lots of freedom, but requires a very different strategy.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

with PT/TT, it's all about how you decide to setup your car depending on what tracks you're running on.

I still need to check with Racing Brake to see if those discs are vented, if they are, I may just do 4-lugs in the rear. If they are vented, it comes down to which is better, the 4 lug vented or the 5 lug solid? If the 5 lug solid is better, then, I have no choice but to take the point hit for brakes.

SCCAITS

iTrader: (3)

There goes a nightmare on rims, having 4 lug and 5 lug on the same car

I'm sticking with 2 points for brakes.

Some like PT rules, others hate them. Same goes with IT rules. I originally started and built to IT rules but found they were too constrictive for my taste. Just look at some of the rules threads on the IT forums and it'll drive you crazy. In IT you have to keep things like the washer bottle, headlights, stock motor and tranny mounts, etc. I prefer PT rules, although no rule set is perfect when you are trying to allow hundreds of car models to all compete.

Asterisk - no worries. No one said racing was easy or the rules have to make sense, they just have to attempt to level the playing field. Ever seen how thick the GCR is?