2nd Generation Specific (1986-1992) 1986-1992 Discussion including performance modifications and technical support sections.

She Followed Me Home, Honest

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Old Dec 27, 2015 | 08:56 AM
  #2076  
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Thanks for the input Deacon, I'm still in the planning stages of the FC work and haven't committed to anything yet.
I was hoping to ignore the FC as I slowly gathered parts but Sprocket has other ideas...manifested by not starting. Cranks over OK, just no run.
I manhandled her into the garage- it's amazing how a slight incline in the driveway turns into the Tetons when trying to push a car solo...- and will begin a diag later today.

Until that nasty little surprise, I'd been dreaming about the Z and what I could do with what I have and in these (frigid) conditions.
We have a Miata gauge cluster but it has damaged traces on the flexi-circuitboard. Fortunately the fuel gauge would be functional if I just got a bit creative and knowing the fuel load would be nice.
Actually, driving without gauges is easier than you'd think.
If the efan is off, you know water temp is below 195° and nominal, you can hear the turn signal flasher and you can just pace traffic if you're worried about speeding.
Don't care about the tach, think they're mostly just window dressing on a street car...when was the last time a cop pulled you and asked, "Sir, do you know what RPM you were running?".
Oil pressure would be nice, I'll admit that.
It's odd to see the blank space where you'd expect gauges but practically speaking, it's not a real big deal.


Ignoring the interior, which I don't feel is even begun yet, the biggest distraction as a daily is going to be the incredibly whiny fuel pump.
Which pisses me off as the in-tank pump was the entire reason for swapping in the FC fuel tank and this is no quieter than before.
After some research, it turns out that it is possible to run the stock EFI pump with carbs...and it apparently works quite well.
Unfortunately, even though I have a perfectly good FC pump (it came with the tank), the hanger was modified to run the Toyota pump we now have and I'll need a new bulkhead/hanger to try this out.
ANYONE WITH A STOCK S5 FUEL TANK BULKHEAD, PLEASE PM ME...

Sometime this week (details being hammered out) we're having the rear fenders rolled so they stop Freddy Kreuger-ing the tires. The guy shows nice work on his Facebook page (if you're into Stance Nation ****...), has all the real tools and only charges $70, so that's a go.
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Old Dec 28, 2015 | 11:12 AM
  #2077  
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Originally Posted by clokker
.
I was hoping to ignore the FC as I slowly gathered parts but Sprocket has other ideas...manifested by not starting. Cranks over OK, just no run.
I manhandled her into the garage- it's amazing how a slight incline in the driveway turns into the Tetons when trying to push a car solo...- and will begin a diag later today.
.
My "diag" consisted of:
-Pulling the 15a ENGINE fuse, looking at it and putting it back
-Tugging listlessly on the plug wires
-Sighing heavily
-Starting the car

I think I finally experienced the flooding phenomenon I've read so much about.
It's like I'm a real rotor head now.

I normally make it a point not to start the FC without running her long enough to warm up, but last time I juggled cars in the driveway I broke convention.
Apparently, there's a price to pay for laziness.
Anyway, I'm going to blithely assume this was a one-off glitch and forget about it.

See how long it takes that approach to bite me in the ***...
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Old Dec 28, 2015 | 07:27 PM
  #2078  
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Originally Posted by clokker
See how long it takes that approach to bite me in the ***...
i took that approach forever ago and i'm still waiting. i start my Rx's, pull them into the driveway and shut them off all the time.
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Old Dec 28, 2015 | 08:14 PM
  #2079  
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I try not to run my S5 for short periods of time and then shut her down like when moving her around in the driveway or in and out of the garage. In fact I usually just push her in and out of the garage when I have to move her. I had seriously thought that with an S5 it was very much harder (but apparently not impossible) to flood the engine compared to the S4.
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Old Dec 28, 2015 | 08:26 PM
  #2080  
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only one time when i stalled it cold,, you sure you didn't stall it>? just cant say huh>?
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Old Dec 28, 2015 | 10:01 PM
  #2081  
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From: Mile High
What do you mean "stall it"?
How do I stall an engine that isn't running?

I'm burning oil more enthusiastically when cold and have had fatal compression for seven years, so it's actually rather amazing she's a reliable runner at all. Recall she just made a 3k+ mile road trip three months ago, with nary a hiccough.
Anyway, I'm going to say it was flooded and it was my fault...and continue clicking my ruby slippers together and willing it to last until the replacement engine is ready.

Jeebus willing, this will coincide with the return of warm weather because this single digit **** in the garage ain't cutting it. None of the ice/rime on the car has melted after being inside all day, the floor is basically dry. The seats are hard and cold...yada, yada, yada.

I am not only too old for this **** but getting better at whining, apparently.


A random aside...
I realized that the two cars I work on are cumulatively 65 years old.
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Old Dec 28, 2015 | 10:13 PM
  #2082  
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Originally Posted by clokker

I think I finally experienced the flooding phenomenon I've read so much about.
It's like I'm a real rotor head now.


Welcome to the club!
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Old Dec 31, 2015 | 11:06 AM
  #2083  
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From: Mile High
Originally Posted by JerryLH3


Welcome to the club!
Thanks, is there a secret handshake?

The emperor has been exposed this week as the ineffectual old fart he is.
As I'm at a standstill on substantive projects, I've moved to smaller, more easily manageable jobs...first of which is wiring the fuel gauge (the only one that will work).
The gauge cluster will fill the unsightly hole in the dash and the fuel load would be nice to know.
This requires removing the dash, something I've done dozens of times already.
The HVAC control panel must come out, there is only one electrical connector.
Which I cannot, for love or money, remove.

Inexplicably, the release tab is on the underside as installed and there is very little clearance- I cannot depress it enough to release the little lock tit.
Even after crafting a "special <s>needs</s> tool" out of a nail, it resists defiantly.
Two days now it has laughed in my face.

I even have a duplicate pigtail, so I know exactly what it looks like under there, but this knowledge has not helped.

Once I get it off (a giant assumption at this point), that lock tab is going the way of the dinosaur.

Today the rear fenders get rolled, so some progress will happen.

A nice, comfy 9° this morning.
Very bracing.
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Old Jan 1, 2016 | 09:43 AM
  #2084  
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Fenders were rolled yesterday, not pulled, just rolled.
The guy came to the house, I didn't have to go anywhere...which was nice.
He was quite knowledgeable about the Z and the FC, took a lot of pics of both.

He had your basic Eastwood roller, looked like it had been modded for extra bolt patterns and it took about 30 minutes per side. The rolled lip is even and consistent, you really can't tell anything was done.
I haven't driven her yet but it looks like we'll be fine.

I have given up on that connector, it will be Sigfrid's project when he comes mid-January.
Decided to salvage the situation by making the horn functional, so at least something gets done.
I have all the required bits, it's just a matter of putting them together.

It's even supposed to warm up finally, so there's that to look forward to.
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Old Jan 3, 2016 | 10:03 AM
  #2085  
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Originally Posted by clokker
Thanks, is there a secret handshake?
Unfortunately (or fortunately?), there is not.
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Old Jan 3, 2016 | 10:13 AM
  #2086  
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Originally Posted by clokker
Fenders were rolled yesterday, not pulled, just rolled.
The guy came to the house, I didn't have to go anywhere...which was nice.
He was quite knowledgeable about the Z and the FC, took a lot of pics of both.

He had your basic Eastwood roller, looked like it had been modded for extra bolt patterns and it took about 30 minutes per side. The rolled lip is even and consistent, you really can't tell anything was done.
I haven't driven her yet but it looks like we'll be fine.
That is kind of cool that he came to the house and did the work for you rather than you having to take the car to a shop to get the work done.

I used the Eastwood kit on my FC and I did the work myself. Here are a few pointers for anyone that reads this and wants to do this as a DIY project.

The trick is to get the sheet metal and paint warm enough so it won't crack, yet not to hot so that you blister the crap out of it. If not, you will find it necessary to have to repaint the fender lips. Or if you plain to paint the car anyways, just remember to roll the fender lips first. It really helps to do the work on a warm sunny day so that nature will help with the process. Park the side of the car that you are working on in the sun, wait awhile and use a good quality heat gun. When you get one side done, move the car around, park the other side in the sun and wait awhile before resuming the work. Also you want to go slowly and gently - don't rush and try to do it all at once.
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Old Jan 3, 2016 | 11:13 AM
  #2087  
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Originally Posted by DeaconBlue
That is kind of cool that he came to the house and did the work for you rather than you having to take the car to a shop to get the work done.

I used the Eastwood kit on my FC and I did the work myself. Here are a few pointers for anyone that reads this and wants to do this as a DIY project.
I lured him over by putting the car on stands and pulling the wheels for him.
And pleading that I was worried about the tires.
And that I had good weed.

All your advice seems sound Deacon, although not totally applicable to my specific situation.
I knew a heatgun (which he had...as do I) was used to make the paint more pliable, I didn't know it got hot enough to significantly affect the metal itself. I can see how ambiently warm metal would be easier to work maybe.

Heating turned out to be wrong for the Plastidip, which, if you think about it, is already (fairly) soft and pliable. The heat softened up the dip and then it wanted to abrade on the forming wheel. Without heat, the wheel left no marks on the dip.

We were fortunate that our arches were in perfect condition, the lip actually rolled instead of folding, it's quite factory looking.
The (slightly) damaged dip is no big deal, there's undercoat beneath, no bare metal.

Much fiddle faddling about the rest of Friday and Sat. morning found the interior mostly assembled, at least, the stuff we have. I put dash trim bits back on that I forgot we even had...like the column surround clamshell and finally finished the horn install.
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It ain't great but she does present as a more-or-less complete car, albeit a kinda ratty one.

I gave a ride to a friend, so the car was fully loaded (maybe a half tank of gas) and there was no tire scraping at all...a perfect result.

We now have two issues at the top of the list...a clunking from the rear (probably the diff as all the u-joints are new) and the mosquito whine of the fuel pump.
The pump works, so it's #2, the diff (if that's what it turns out to be) is another matter.
Although heavy, it's not particularly hard to swap the R200 but if we're going to do it, now's the time to explore options. The simplest is getting a LSD R180 from a Subaru, almost a direct bolt in (we'd have to get a 240Z mustache bar) and easily capable of handling the power we have.
More involved is a swap from a VQ30 (I think) which gives us rear discs, CV joints instead of u-joints, 5-lug hubs and more overhead for future power increases.
At that point you've pretty much committed to five lug hubs and better calipers for the front as well, along with new wheels.

We'll see.
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Old Jan 4, 2016 | 10:16 AM
  #2088  
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You can do the R200 upgrade and then swap in the parts from the Z31 series 300ZX to get both the CV axles and rear disc brakes. There are kits out there - some are very expensive and for high output engines.

Wolf Creek Racing CV Axle Kits
Datsun 240z-280z complete CV axle conversion
The Driveshaft Shop | Datsun 510 / 240Z 108mm CV Conversion Kit - Import Axles

Although I am sure you would rather piece the conversion together yourself similar to what was done here;

Rear End Upgrade
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Old Jan 4, 2016 | 10:42 AM
  #2089  
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Looks good! The Miata dash looks great in there. It's hard to tell in the first pic, but the dash to door panel gap looks to fit together well over on the passenger side.
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Old Jan 4, 2016 | 12:18 PM
  #2090  
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Originally Posted by BrettLinton7
Looks good! The Miata dash looks great in there. It's hard to tell in the first pic, but the dash to door panel gap looks to fit together well over on the passenger side.
Thanks, the dash>door gap is very good, the biggest fit issue is dash>windshield.
The bottom of our glass is much straighter than the curvature of the dash, you can see the small triangle left exposed at either end.
We've yet to final mount the dash and I expect we can mitigate this issue during that process.

Sigfrid has finally located an airbag cover and the gaping hole in the dash will be filled soon. He returns on the 15th and we'll figure our new game plan then.
Meanwhile, I have to get back to my FC engine.
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Old Jan 6, 2016 | 10:15 AM
  #2091  
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Shifting gears- the Z is parked till the 15th (S. returns to Denver) and I'm back home, working on the FC engine again.

I had retrieved tools from Sigfrid's garage and was able to finish removing stuff from the block.
For instance, I needed my impact driver to remove the screws retaining the port actuator rods (one rod was basically frozen) and the intake manifold was clear for paint. Which it got later that afternoon.

I also grabbed the allen sockets and was able to remove the allen plug in the front iron, which I hoped would fit the BMW fan trigger...and it does. It's a 16mm x 1.5, BTW. This will have multiple advantages over the old setup- the wiring will be about 4' shorter and I can lose the adaptor in the upper radiator hose that housed the Audi trigger.

The injectors go to WitchHunter today, probably won't see them for ten days or so.
I'll be placing my initial parts order today also. This first order will be things I absolutely need...gaskets, filters, plugs, sensors, clutch(?*) and I'll get oil and coolant too, just so it's on hand when I need it.

After that order, we'll see. Depends on cost and how secure I feel about the engine.
I'd like a stud kit for the oil pan and maybe an OMP delete and headers. The stud kit is cheap and easily justified, the latter two items, not so much.
My current thinking is that there's no point buying luxuries until I know the engine runs...I'm fairly confident but really, who knows?

As I await parts, there's still plenty to do.
I'd like to explore modding the vacuum spider (which needs cleaning anyway) and the engine wiring harness. Both projects are labor intensive but essentially free and free is good.

My projected timeline is totally dependent on the state...I was notified that some lackwit had filed an "excessive smoking" report (probably when I tried 20w50 oil, which Sprocket HATES), and I may be required to etest a year early (I had just passed last March).
If so, the engine must be swapped by March.
If not, the deciding factor will be how long the current motor continues to run.

Sigfrid returns for a day on the 15th, he's excited to see the Z.
There are a few little jobs we can do but mostly he needs to drive it and see what he thinks.
Until the weather warms up and we can soundproof and carpet the interior, there's not much I can do. And we need seats.
And gauges.
And a steering wheel.
And window tint.
And...
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Old Jan 6, 2016 | 11:56 AM
  #2092  
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Originally Posted by clokker

My projected timeline is totally dependent on the state...I was notified that some lackwit had filed an "excessive smoking" report (probably when I tried 20w50 oil, which Sprocket HATES), and I may be required to etest a year early (I had just passed last March).
If so, the engine must be swapped by March.
If not, the deciding factor will be how long the current motor continues to run.


People can do this in your state? File a complaint and you have to go through extra/early emissions testing?

In a way, I'm kind of glad Florida got rid of emissions testing several years ago.
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Old Jan 6, 2016 | 12:07 PM
  #2093  
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From: Mile High
Originally Posted by JerryLH3


People can do this in your state? File a complaint and you have to go through extra/early emissions testing?
Apparently so, yes.

I'm not actually certain I'll get retested, I was so pissed I didn't read the whole notification and it's gone now, so I must wait for my registration renewal to come and see.
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Old Jan 7, 2016 | 07:28 PM
  #2094  
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Originally Posted by clokker
My projected timeline is totally dependent on the state...I was notified that some lackwit had filed an "excessive smoking" report (probably when I tried 20w50 oil, which Sprocket HATES), and I may be required to etest a year early (I had just passed last March).
That sucks. When your engine finally gets swapped you and Sigfrid need to tear down that old one with almost 300k and see what it looks like inside for science. Even in NC you can report a vehicle for excessive smoking to the division of air quality, although i have never heard of it happening and there are a bunch of old chryslers and mitsubishis running around here.

Last edited by SpikeDerailed; Jan 7, 2016 at 07:30 PM.
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Old Jan 10, 2016 | 10:02 AM
  #2095  
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From: Mile High
Originally Posted by SpikeDerailed
When your engine finally gets swapped you and Sigfrid need to tear down that old one with almost 300k and see what it looks like inside for science.
Sigfrid wouldn't care but I'd be interested and I've often thought of an autopsy.
Free space and time will determine if it comes to pass.

Meanwhile, work on the replacement engine continues, albeit at a rather leisurely pace.

I'm in a pretty good situation actually, having a complete running engine in the car and two intact intakes in the garage gives me several options.
An underlying assumption- based on the fact that I "rebuilt" the intake just two years ago- is that it is all completely functional and could be transferred complete onto the "new" shortblock. This is obviously the fastest, cheapest and most likely successful option.

I have already ordered (and partially received) the parts necessary for this approach and by Wednesday, could proceed.
Naturally, that's not what I'm going to do.

I've begun refurbing one of the spare intakes (lower, exten and dynamic) and plan on starting with that, holding the current intake in reserve. In any case, the throttle body I'm using now will be retained as it's already modded and the cleanest/prettiest of the three I have. Basically I'm just cleaning and painting the manifolds although the ACV will be gone through.

The real fun begins with the vac spider and engine harness, both of which I think can be significantly altered. This will require I actually understand them...which at this point, I do not.

Sigfrid argues that I should only worry about the shortblock, which at this point is a complete unknown. Do whatever is necessary to prep it (new clutch, waterpump, plugs, etc.) and get it installed and running...then fool around with mods.
This makes perfect sense...and I probably won't do it.

Mucking about with emissions and electrical ON TOP of an unknown engine sounds like much more fun.
In a weird, almost-certain-to-fail, way.

My unbridled optimism is based on my last experience of this scope/nature, when I swapped the entire drivetrain into the current chassis. After completion, she fired right up as though nothing had happened and ran so well I didn't even check timing for a few weeks.
This created a "how hard could it be?" attitude- unfounded as it may be- that I'm carrying into this project.
I guess we'll see how it works out.

Pretty much all depends on the current engine continuing to run and if I need an etest in March.
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Old Jan 12, 2016 | 02:15 PM
  #2096  
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Most of the big stuff has been cleaned/painted (airpump/pulley, waterpump/pulley, waterpump housing, LIM and exten manifold) and I've kinda painted myself into the metaphorical corner.
I love this engine enamel so much I put it on everything and now wonder if it's too monochromatic and bland.
As I slog through this existential crisis, parts have begun arriving- if necessary, I could swap engines tomorrow, so a baseline safety net has been slung...I'm at least semi-prepared for an engine failure.

Ideally however, I'd like to keep the "old" engine intact and not cannibalize it for many parts. The plan is to use only the upgraded alternator and modded throttle body from this engine, so I'm going to need a lot of hardware to spiff up the new one.
Making a list as I go, hope it's not super expensive (I'm figuring about $75).

Now that the big chunks are done, I've moved on to the smaller stuff, beginning with the aux. port actuators. The front shaft was particularly ginchy, turned out the seal was half missing and it barely turned. I'm guessing that port didn't work too well. New seals and a good clean ought to fix it up.

I expect to see the injectors back from WitchHunter this week but don't really need 'em yet, so it doesn't matter.

Things seem to be going smoothly and I'm cautiously optimistic.

For the first time in weeks I'll be seeing Sigfrid this weekend, which should be interesting.
He has no seat time in the Z since all the work was done and I'm curious how he likes her now.
I think the airbag cover has arrived too, so the gaping hole in the dash will be gone.

A bit of progress on all fronts, it would seem.
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Old Jan 14, 2016 | 03:01 PM
  #2097  
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Proof of progress (meagre as it may be...):
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All flanges block sanded and all threads chased.
New hardware in place.

Moving on to cleaning and painting (where appropriate) the smaller stuff now.
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Old Jan 16, 2016 | 06:51 AM
  #2098  
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My card just got dinged, so I guess WitchHunter finished the injectors and they're on the way home.
That's nice.
Not thrilled with the operation of the port actuators, one won't move at all, the other will but takes some effort. The rods have been polished and the guide bushing scrubbed out, they spin freely but it won't matter if the actuators are flaky.

I assume the ones on the running engine are good and could be swapped over, so the situation is not dire but naturally I wonder if there isn't another option.
Do the 5th/6th ports open progressively or are they OPEN/CLOSED?
If progressive, are they linear with say, the throttle opening?

I ought to edumacate myself about this stuff...
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Old Jan 16, 2016 | 07:42 AM
  #2099  
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They are OPEN/CLOSED.

They take a couple of psi of air to open, but not much (1-3psi).
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Old Jan 16, 2016 | 10:52 AM
  #2100  
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From: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Originally Posted by jjwalker
They are OPEN/CLOSED.

They take a couple of psi of air to open, but not much (1-3psi).
correct. the S5 uses the air pump to supply air, and then there is a solenoid to turn the air to the actuators on and off. they are triggered by RPM and load, using the AFM, the S5 training manual has the graph.

so at low rpm, the solenoid is off (air dow not flow through it, not sure if its electrically off or not), and the actuators see nothing, and the valves are closed.

over a certain RPM and load the solenoid turns on (air flows through) the actuators see pressure and the valves open.

it takes just under 3psi to open the valves up, the S4 and previous engines used exhaust backpressure, and thus work nearly the same way, load = air flow = exhaust backpressure = open ports. the Rx8 uses an electric motor to open and close the ports.
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