clokker

iTrader: (2)

IF this proceeds- and that has yet to be determined- the absolute baseline option is the cable.
It is the simplest and most easily implemented solution and is completely independent of any other system.
Next in line would be the thermowax- it was the install, not the performance, I objected to.

I was able to get a cold start and drive accomplished...it was interesting.
She started right up but required pedal to keep running.
After a minute or so she drove off fine but didn't want to idle for about a mile, after which it was fine.
Most of the trip I consciously ignored the gauges and paid attention to the feel.
Did it stumble decelling to idle or hunt/surge when it got there?
Any stumble off idle or surge above?
Backfiring?

Nope, nope and nope.
Once at full operating temp, she drives beautifully and seems happier than ever.
(In fairness I'll note that the taped pedals and new steering wheel have significantly altered the feel overall and I adjusted some slack from the throttle cable, which no doubt made a difference.)

This is but one experience/data point and time will tell a more complete story but for now I'm willing to keep trying the idea.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

heres a dumb idea for you. so if the problem is having a cold idle, why not use the AWS valve? its already there, however since i'm sure you don't want a ~3000rpm cold idle, why not put some kind of restrictor in the air line, that way you could have a ~1500rpm cold idle with the flick of a switch, without having to run a cable.

spectre6000

iTrader: (1)

Here's a thought/question... Is the "choke" on these guys actually a choke? In a carburetor it works by blocking off a significant portion of the throat, thereby increasing vacuum (and fuel as a byproduct as it is sucked into the higher vacuum proportionally) and decreasing air flow to affect a richer mixture. Since these are fuel injected, you can reduce the air intake, but the fuel delivery would stay the same without something telling the injectors to spit more into the intake... It would richen the mixture, but not necessarily the way or to the degree you'd want.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the EFI does the same thing as a choke, although it doesn't literally do the same thing as the carberetter (good says its wrong, but that is how its spelled on my zenith stromberg...)

the EFI has a coolant temperature sensor, and it does enrich the mixture when the engine is cold, so that is part one of the "choke" function. part 2 is the thermowax which mechanically pushes the throttle open to give the fast idle.

so you get the same thing, a higher cold idle with a richer mixture, it is just done slightly differently.

a more modern car than the FC would do away with the separate thermowax, and just use the idle control valve to raise the idle, and a more modern car than that has a drive by wire system, and just opens the throttle further.

it is kind of amazing how complex the EFI needs to be to do the same things as a carb does.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

This little discussion reminds me of the NASA "space pen" story (which may well be apocryphal)...NASA spends millions to develop a pen that works in space, the Russians use pencils.

T'would be relatively trivial to fab in an electrically operated, heat sensitive system to operate the throttle but the core ethos of "Because Streetcar!" demands that the simplest solution take precedence and that would be the cable option.
My brain acts as the ECU and my arm/hand, the actuator.

This is the least complicated, least likely to fail and downright simplest to install solution and once in place, the easiest to adjust.

We did get a bit of snow (maybe 1/2") last night so it'll be another fairly good cold start experiment this morning.
Remember, if the ethos demands simplicity, the simplest solution of all is to add nothing and just deal with it by feathering the throttle for a while. This may turn out to be perfectly acceptable after a bit of getting used to.
Or it may not, in which case the cable will be the next step.

spectre6000

iTrader: (1)

That's what I did in the Ghia. With a 40mm throat worth of carb per cylinder, there simply wasn't enough real estate for the chokes AND the fan shroud. I had control over the mixture from a jetting perspective though, whereas here you're at the mercy of the ECU.

We're purely in the realm of philosophy here (and have been as far as my posts have been concerned), but there are multiple perspectives for simplicity, ease, and reliability. Yes, a cable is more reliable from a mechanical failure standpoint, but you are entered into the equation with the cable and are substantially less reliable than the stock system. It's not so much a question of remembering to do it or not, but the manner in which it's done. Having daily driven manually choked vehicles, it can be a bit of a guessing game on the operator's part as to if and how much choke to apply, for how long, and to what degree and when it should be removed. Improper application leads to increased engine wear. Not that that is ever a good thing, but in your particular case (270K rotary) it seems it might be an even stronger concern. I'm certainly not saying "don't do it" so much as simply playing devil's advocate here, but it's something to put some serious consideration toward.

On the other hand, Sprocket is, as you put it, a streetcar. I don't know what that means exactly, but the general theme in your engine bay is simplicity (at least from an aesthetic perspective). Trimming the boughs and branches of the intake/throttle body is certainly in keeping with that goal and would absolutely make for a cleaner looking engine bay. It also gives more driver control, which I generally prefer, though it seems out of place with the rest of the car given all the automation throughout the rest of it.

...Just musing...

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Although there is an intentional and focused aesthetic applied to the bay, note that every single change resulted in "less"...shorter hose runs, shorter electrical branches, etc. so there's a definite technical advantage underneath the glitz.
Having spent considerable quality time in your own bay of late, I think you'd agree my arrangement is also far easier to work on/in.

I tend to have love affairs with my cars, spend lots of time/money/thought keeping (comparatively) impractical cars functioning as reliable daily drivers and as romantic as it might seem, there's a real need for ruthlessness to make it work.

I am not averse to electronics in general but think that our particular generation of cars suffer from the exuberance of the early Japanese love affair with silicon.
Suddenly possible to do all sorts of things with circuitry, it was never questioned whether it should be...computers just made everything better automatically.
That's how we end up with a body cpu that essentially replaces a pair of Pep Boys $4 flasher modules and a horn relay.
I would assert that from a service/longevity standpoint, the electronic replacement is a downgrade from the older setup.
We also got the insanely expensive and proprietary switchgear...fer crissakes, even our turn signal lever is electronic, which nobody does anymore.

I don't dislike modern stuff, I just set the bar high when justifying it.

spectre6000

iTrader: (1)

Agreed.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Agreed.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

here is my definition of streetable.

streetablility is converse to the amount of instructions needed before handing the keys to any random person. for instance; i can give the MGB key to my mom and she'd be completely fine, vs the miata we're racing this year which has 4 switches on the dash that do stuff. the guy who built the car knows what they do, but the other 3 of us don't have a clue, or really understand why we need them in the first place.

so your manual fast idle cable actually fails my streetability test. even the MGB has an automatic choke

spectre6000

iTrader: (1)

The last MG I drove ('76 Midget) had a manual choke... The only people that have to pass that "streetable" litmus are myself and my wife. Anything that excludes operation by the GP is theft deterrent! I'll have to post some pictures of my truck when I finally get it on the road (the goal is before next winter). It will be the antithesis of streetable by that definition. Given that the locks and ignition are keyed identically to every other M1009/M1008/M1028/etc. extant makes that a good thing though.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the midget and B are different... i did have a TR3 for a while that had a reverse handbrake, a starter button and a manual choke, so anyone under like 40 couldn't drive it

i don't know about Colorado, but the five letters on the front of the car M A Z D A are theft deterrent enough here

spectre6000

iTrader: (1)

Midgets and Bs are about as alike as Jettas and Phaetons. I've never noticed the reverse handbrake in the Triumph though. I'll have to look it up, but it sounds like a thoroughly and laughably British design feature! What makes it reverse?

I've never been one to pay attention to, or even notice, fashion. If Mazdas are exceptionally uncool (here or in the land of your expired domain), it's only because the unclean masses are ignorant to what makes them good.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the TR3 handbrake is called a "fly off" or if you're under 21, its drift style (y0!). the lever is free to move, until you push the button to lock it, and to release, you just give it a little pull, and it pops off. i think you could see how muggles would have a safety concern with that, even though in practise its completely fine.

i live in palo alto (the TV show silicon valley might as well be my neighbor), so there are a lot of Tesla's, and Audi/bmw/Porsches around. so yeah unclean masses are ignorant

spectre6000

iTrader: (1)

I tried to find a video of the handbrake in action, but the closest I've come so far is a video where it looks like you'll see it in action, then the camera zooms in on something that's not the handbrake just in time to miss it...

For all intent and purpose, I live in Boulder. Same crowd; all tech startups, venture capitalists, and software developers. I happen to be a fan of Teslas and especially Porsches. Some BMWs and Audis are cool too. As much as I bemoan modern cars for their purposeless tech, Teslas really have a lot going for them... It'll be interesting to see how they fare 20 years down the road.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

yeah it will be interesting to see where tesla is in 20 years. i'm told the radio in a model S has more than 72 wires BTW.

i think BMW has lost the plot, the new ones look like 2003 accords with M badges festooned everywhere, and big exhausts and big wheels. the popular audi here is the Q series, which i find almost offensive, it has no styling at all, its just a this round brown thing. sells like hotcakes.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

OK, Day Two of The Experiment:

Other than a few minutes/miles right at the very beginning, one would be hard pressed to notice the system was not stock.
Really, no drama or weirdness (unless one counts the fact that she runs at all as "weirdness").
There were multiple short stops, and she hot started just fine.
One longer stop (lunch) and she started fine.
Idle is very stable and even.

We'll see what spectre's more objective opinion is tomorrow.

spectre6000

iTrader: (1)

I can't imagine it's too terribly different from my ghia to be honest. It had no warm up system either, and aside from having to feather the throttle it was like any other (58 year old) car. The system only "exists" for the first few minutes of operation, after which it goes into hiding. The only reason I think it would be different is due to, and a function of, the slightly more tenuous balance that exists at idle in a rotary. My musings havs more to do with the fact that a functional and supposedly tuned/variably tuned system already exists. The rationale behind introducing the simplification is that it is, itself, a complication.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

whoa.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

I know, right?
I think he's channeling Jayden Smith.

spectre6000

iTrader: (1)

I've been reading too much Foucault... Dude gets in your head. At least I'm not listing lists of lists in sentences that run on for pages... Good thing another issue of R&T came in today!

Distilling the distillation; I don't know that the "simplification" of the choke cable is actually a simplification so much as something that CAN be done, and thus is being done for the sake of doing it; thus making it, in fact, a complication. It seems simple on one hand, but the reality of it is that it's actually more complicated both in execution and practical implementation than simply retaining and maintaining the factory system.

Yadda yadda. I still think it's a cool idea and that you should go for it. Naturally, I will pitch in in any way I can. I'm not doubting or hating, just thinking out loud.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Oh we've got trouble (trouble, trouble, trouble), right here in River City (trouble, trouble, trouble)...

spectre6000

iTrader: (1)

Just in case anyone else is too young for that one...

clokker

iTrader: (2)

I just watched that exact clip.

Ooooh, eerie.

spectre6000

iTrader: (1)

Truth be told, I had to look up Jayden Smith as well... Not sure what that says about either of us...

clokker

iTrader: (2)

I majored in meta.