DeaconBlue

iTrader: (31)

Maybe you needed a deeper Ah capacity battery? Is there any way to wire in a small backup 12v battery (maybe with a diode or something) just keep the power supplied to the ECU?

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Even if I found a replacement hosting site, there's no way I could relink the pics properly.
Check that...I could (probably) but I never would.

I never understood their original business model, although I was more than happy to benefit from it, and I don't understand the new approach either.
This is just a newish iteration of the National Lampoon "Buy this magazine or we'll shoot this dog!" ruse.

An interesting idea, hopefully not needed.
I am convinced that the problem stems from the weird way the battery cutoff solenoid is installed and that will be addressed when we redo the electrical this winter. For the nonce, some temporary direct power feeds seem to have eliminated the glitch.
A few days of daily driving will confirm/refute this supposition.

It is an irritating glitch but easily "fixed" (it takes under five minutes to reset the ECU and get running again), so if it continues, we'll contact the manufacturer and see what they say.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Well, the ECU glitch lay dormant for nearly a week, but reappeared again yesterday, so Sigfrid contacted the manufacturer, who had some weird advice.
Predictably, the first suggestion was bad grounds...because of course it was.
Informed that our unit is connected (both power and ground) directly to the battery, they pivoted to saying that there was a software update we could install that specifically addresses this issue. How a software program can repair faulty grounds is a mystery but we'll try it on Saturday and see.

It's especially irritating because the "learning cycle" really does seem to work and just as the engine starts to run really well, it glitches out and resets to the beginning again.
So close, yet so far.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

OK, another fiddle around with the engine bay day and results are positive.
We redid some fan wiring, which simplified things a bit, and added another ground strap direct to the throttle body itself.
We also fiddled with the throttle linkage itself, just to ensure there was no mechanical hang up (there really wasn't but there's definitely none now)/

All of the fiddlefaddle was in preparation for the main event which was reflashing the ECU with the new update software.
Sigfrid says these guys are very helpful and want us to send them logs to look over. We'll do that but S. is in Dallas next week, so it'll take a while.

The software install was easy and we went through the initial setup with a fine toothed comb, changing a lot of settings we'd left on default last time.
She runs almost perfectly, the few "issues" are really only apparent sitting in the driveway being super picky -in real life driving, they're just not a factor.
It's worth bearing in mind that we basically have a four barrel carb on a crappily designed manifold, so getting fully seamless injection response is really asking a lot.
For the first time ever she will pull clean and strong to 6K rpm and feels quite lively.

Now we wait and see if the ECU can hold on to the settings and complete a full 200 mile learning cycle.

Even with the previous glitches, the Z got 24mpg on the last tank of fuel (about 50/50 highway and city), which is completely acceptable ( and remember, because of our altitude we only have to run 85 octane gas...so it's cheap as well).

Assuming the ECU problem is solved, we probably won't do much as long as the weather stays nice and S. is enjoying the Z "experience" (which means no AC or PS in an all black car). When winter forces us indoors (or off the road), we're redoing the entire chassis electrical harness.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

A bit of an update on all the stuff we haven't been doing...

Sigfrid took his RX8 to Mazda for a fuel tank related recall (o-rings, I think) and they called him to say that he had no compression and the engine was toast.
This was sorta odd for a car he had just driven that morning, but they had compression numbers to back their claim.
This caused quite an uproar and we furiously messaged back and forth, trying to figure out what to do.
He even put her up on CL, but a RX8 with a dead engine- even one with a mere 39k miles- doesn't have much appeal.

We decided that there was no harm in trying some Hail Mary fixes, the most popular being a coil replacement...so parts were ordered.
Took 25 minutes to do and the car ran perfectly.
Thanks, Mazda dealer.

On top of that little fiasco, S. got "honey-do'd" into a bathroom renovation, so both money and time have been in short supply.
Fortunately, the Z continues to run well/reliably.
We met up yesterday (finally) and did some little piddly stuff, like tweaking the accelerator pedal for better heel>toe action and some minor tuning on the EFI.
The Z is basically done with Stage 1 and everything beyond will require some serious cash and effort.
I'm not sure what he wants to do next.

Meanwhile the biggest thing I've had to do to my FC is fill up the windshield washer fluid.
Added a bit of air to the tires as well.
It was exhausting.

With both of my project cars running well, I've turned my attention to cooking.
I like the immediate reward and the house smells nice, too.
I plan on eating like a king this winter.

I just realized that this upcoming December will be the tenth anniversary of the FC's Optima battery...I might want to think about replacing it...

WondrousBread

Funny how even though Mazda is the only one who has produced our little rotary engine for retail sale for something like 40 years, and they have fought tooth and nail to try and keep it alive and give it a good reputation for reliability, they can't seem to train their mechanics for anything more than basic maintenance.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

what has happened with our local dealerships is that wages have dropped, and any mechanic that is smart enough to fix car is also smart enough to get a job that pays more.

KansasCityREPU

iTrader: (9)

Not to get off subject, but you see this in a lot of industries. Workers are trained to do the job at task, or given instructions/manuals, and they do that task. They don't have any critical thinking skills other then what they where told to do. This sets apart a true subject matter expert and the "worker".

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Apologies to get further off the path, but I have seen it first hand in the independent auto repair industry. I work for a reputable shop that does full auto repair short of windshields and body work. We have a hell of a time finding good help, and even then the people who apply are either above the age of 40 and deep into their career, or youngsters fresh out of school without a lick of sense. Not to say the 40-somethings are bad, but the industry is losing people to retirement and attrition faster than they can be replaced. You also get the bad rep of the average dealer tech, so people don't want to enter the field. The work is rewarding, but difficult at times. I specialize in electrical and engine diagnostics. There are plenty of others who do what I do, but the amount of good ones is fading fast. Again, due to retirement and such. The income is good, but it's far simpler for many people to find a job that pays far better with similar intelligence and education. I love what I do and I'm rather good at it (to toot my own horn) but there is not as much of a push to get young people into trade fields that there once was. The push in high school is to shove everyone into four year universities and ignore the labor trades entirely. I remember clearly having math and science teachers look upon my chosen career as beneath my intelligence and future, but I really love what I do. The perception that exists is that we in the field are all "dumb mechanics" and don't know our butts from a hole in the ground. There are many that are as smart as a hammer and half as useful, but the rest of us that take pride and pursue higher knowledge through training and journals seem ignored. Our customers know what we can do, that's why they come to us and not the dealer.


As far as S. and his RX8, the dealer has tons of politics internally about who gets what job and there is a hierarchy among the distributed jobs. The low-end techs typically get the warranty work because it pays half of book time. The peon they had do the recall probably did a short trip and flooded the hell out of it. Fuel washed engine means no compression and a bum diagnosis from a tech that has no idea what he's doing, unfortunately. It's a very good thing that it was fixed with coils, and I know from experience that they burn out on the bottom of the coil and arc to the coil bracket around that mileage. As far as that dealer, they should have deferred the call of a new engine to someone with a bit more experience to avoid egg on the face. If the vehicle drove in normally and the mileage is that low, chances are it was flooded. I have seen a couple fail engines that early, but they should have done better.

TonyD89

iTrader: (10)

I see it my industry. Here's the problem, they did not use the experienced to pass the knowledge to the newcomers and it was a business decision to save on wages. In my industry, CNC and people that learned software programs were seen as the low cost solution. The last thing they wanted to do was train experienced people in the new tech so the experience could be passed to the newcomer. Their excuse was "We'll have to pay more" even though retirement was not far around the corner.

It's cultural and has to do with the belief that education trumps experience.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

I fortunately work with a great group of people, but I am the youngest by far in the shop. My education has bolstered my experience, but you are correct that the culture is to respond better to education rather than experience. I think part of that reason is that education can be quantified on paper. I have "X" degree and "Y" certifications. Experience can be measured in time, but what you did in that time is where the issue lands. I have worked with guys who were in the industry for over twenty years....before they just got released from a ten year prison term (I used to work at a very crappy shop with a detestable shop owner). Experience matters little when you can not keep up with incoming technology. I have seen first hand older techs flat refusing to work on certain cars or learn certain skills because "I'm an old dog and I never needed to do that" excuses. Usually the number crunchers look at an older worker and look at the salary and benefits paid, which is likely substantial. The knee-jerk reaction is to fire and hire 2-4 people in their place, because more workers means more money. It usually backfires over time and the pool of knowledge dries up because of it. Hell, a friend of mine is in IT and he recently left a company for a better job. The old company wanted to fire the entire IT department and outsource all of it to India. This was cheaper on paper, but that is before you factor in the amount of discovery time and diagnosis a network system would need to a person who doesn't know the system. His old company periodically calls him as a consult to fix their systems at over three times his old salary.

pfsantos

iTrader: (1)

I would go as far as saying the flooding fouled the plugs and killed the coil. Some tweets with # Mazda USA would be worth trying to get ALL the money back.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

That is very likely. Wet plugs would not allow any spark to travel to ground as designed, so the coil has to try and find a ground SOMEWHERE. Typically, right through the resin on the bottom and into the coil bracket. harping on Mazda USA may not be a bad idea. The vehicle ran when it got to the dealer and mysteriously stopped working. Obviously, they will claim that the so-called "bad engine" was the cause and the symptom is the fouled plugs, but they did ya dirty.

WondrousBread

I very much doubt Mazda would try and claim that their rotary engine failed after only 39 000 miles in such a public forum. Maybe in private, but if one were to confront them openly on Twitter they probably won't try that defense.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Just to be clear, Sigfrid didn't pay anything to the dealer, the car was only brought in for a factory recall (which was performed) and the dead engine diagnosis was free...presumably after they had flooded it and it ran so poorly.
The compression test was on their dime, presumably a cover your *** move on their part.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

As we all know, compression tests on rotary engines are not the end all, be all test for engine integrity. It gets you close, but their CYA seems foolish. If anything, I hope Sigfrid had the engine reflash recall done that is supposed to help with RX8 starting, at some point.

DeaconBlue

iTrader: (31)

First you need to have the correct and specific compression tester designed for a rotary engine. Second you have to know how to use it, since once you have flooded the engine or if the engine is cold, you will not get the correct values. Seems a shame that even after just a few years of being out of production, the technician(s) at that dealership have forgotten how to work on the rotary engines or that the ones that did, no longer work there..

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

ding ding ding

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

well these cars are OLD. i started at Mazda in 1997, that was 20 years ago!

WondrousBread

The last Rx8 though, is only 5 years old. 2012 was the last production year, I believe.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

That's true but my perception (almost certainly incorrect, but the impression I have anyway...) is that by the end of the RX8 production run, dealerships didn't repair/work on rotaries as simply replace engines and kick 'em out the door again. I know two guys who claim to have been part of a team that shuttled between dealerships and all they did was RX8 engine replacements.
Got very good at it, apparently.

WondrousBread

I wouldn't be all that surprised if that was the case. Between the sizeable portion of customers who abused their Rx8 engines and killed them prematurely, and the number of Mazda mechanics who immediately jump to the conclusion of "blown engine", dealer requests for replacement engines from Mazda were probably frequent and numerous.

It might have been more cost effective by the end of it to just ship them a new engine rather than pay someone for the training, parts and labour to actually disassemble, diagnose, and rebuild a rotary engine. Assuming of course, that the initial failure was actually an internal component, and not a misdiagnosis of the problem.

I also would not be surprised if the immense cost of all those engines (especially those under warranty) was one of the reasons it was taken out of production.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

you are partly right, the requests for engines were so frequent and numerous, that you can't order one. Mazda makes you run through a diagnostic process and then depending on the numbers, you give them they might order you an engine.

so actually, now that i think about it, when the dealership did some work on Sigfrieds car, and then just told him it needs an engine, they didn't follow the process, which means they can't read. the correct process is to replace the ignition system, if it hasn't been already. run it, compression test it, and then you do a de-carbon treatment, and then compression test it again. if it fails test #2, then you're a candidate for an engine.

by contrast with the same era Mazda 6, the first diagnostic step was to replace the engine. (its a Ford, so they got the catalyst to come apart and go into the engine. if you're wondering how the exhaust goes backwards, its a Ford, they are on their own program)

from 2004-2008, we sold exactly 1 Rx8 engine. we sold about 48 V6's, about 1 a month.

its a double standard, the unreliable rotary vs the proven durable piston engine

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Admittedly, I was not present for the conversations and I may be reading too much nuance into the side of the story I heard, but the dealer didn't tell him he needed a new engine...they told him his current motor was dead. There was no offer of repair or replace through Mazda, it was more "Gee, bad luck dude, come and get it".

Oh well, it's a moot point now although the temporary scare did get me thinking...
Given the goodness of the chassis and the cheap prices/easy availability, it seems like the RX8 would make an excellent platform for an electric conversion. Ditch the cartoon rear seats and you've got some nice mid chassis space for batteries and the engine bay looks workable.
Hmmm...

TonyD89

iTrader: (10)

RX7's have been converted too.