zedd

rebuilt longblock - runs great above 4k RPM, no backfires / fireballs / popping. No smoke and to top it off - no idle at all: stalls after 1 minute

removed all emissions - used blockoff plates w/gaskets
no cats - 2.5" exhaust, stock exh manifold
plugged all vacuum lines
removed OMP - premixed 5 oz / 4 gal
new plugs / wires - verified wiring 2 times.
all new gaskets - not used ones
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car will start up, rev to 1000 rpm. after idling for 1 minute, eventually stalls out.
it will immediately restart w/no issues and repeat the same problem
does not smoke any color
Revs to 7k w/no issues - Strong / healthy - when goes back to idle - dies.
Can maintain idle at 2-4k by tapping throttle repeatedly
Plugs tan / brown - no residue on L or T
adjusting TB / etc - no effect. TPS off - no effect
replaced all injector gaskets
double checked for air leaks in the tube between the air flow meter and TB
jumped the INITIAL set connection just for ***** and grins - same issue
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I have NOT verified the connection yet - previous owner jimmy-rigged the fuel pump / fuel pump relay. There's a jumper wire in the test connection at the front of the block, and a switch on the dash. Key on - no fuel pump until switch is turned on. SINCE this is only preliminary tuning, I have not put this issue "back to stock" yet.
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things I've yet to check: sensor on back of water pump
fuel pressure settings / pressure regulator
crank angle settings
fuel lines: low side / high side to which fuel rail?
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I saved this vert from the crusher and have invested much time and effort this far - can someone point me in a direction here?

blazer1313

for some reason im getting the feeling that the ECU isn't activating the primary injectors properly since the secondaries kick in at 3500 RPM and above.

OR

possibly FPR issue. Works good with little vacuum but not with a lot

hmmm...I would also take a timing light (with adjustable degree settings) and see if you are advancing correctly.

Oh...does this happen when the car is cold, at operating temp or all the time? Has this happened recently or ever since vacuum line removal or another mod?

Sorry this didn't help too much.

zedd

It happens when it's bone cold.
It happens after it's at operating temp.

I'll try the timing light - that's another thing I havent checked. Was the first thing I was going to do after it was up and running - check timing and set TPS - but it won't idle long enough for me to get around to the front of the car... lol

local guy here wants 125 per hour to troubleshoot - seem logical or fair?


Picked up the car for 200.00 - previous owner states: It needs a battery and a starter. It wouldn't start one day and I burned up the starter trying to get it going.
Took it home, started going over the motor - it was seized. Bought rebuilt longblock and reassembled - doing the mods along the way.

SO. The car has never really been "run" this way previously. Irks me that this is my first rotary and I'm like allllmost there - was happy to get it where it's at now.

After gutting all the emissions / etc, should I be running a different ECU now?

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

No, you don't need a different ECU to run the car with no emissions. You say you plugged all of the vac lines though...did you plug everything with a vac line? Or just what you thought was emissions related? List exactly what you plugged and/or took off the car. Post some pictures of the engine bay so maybe a problem can be spotted.

Does it idle cleanly around ~1500 RPM (cold idle after BAC/AWS inject air)? Are we talking an abrupt cut-off or stumbling as the idle drops toward 750 RPM? Can you tighten the throttle cable or hold open the plates and get it to idle at something like 2k+?

Rough idles are usually due to vac leaks or a bad TPS, and if it's bad enough, the engine will die when it tries to idle around 750 RPM. Test your TPS if you haven't already.

http://howto.globalvicinity.com/gv_w...i=58&co=1&vi=1

Spray some carb cleaner or something similar around the intake manifold to see if idle speed increases (before it dies on you again). If it does, there's your vac leak.

zedd

Things to do today:
Check coolant temp sens
Check TPS
Check fuel pressure
Adjust throttle cable so I can make it to the front of the car while running.. (nice)

I will post pics of the engine bay tonight. All vacuum ports were plugged with the appropriate style caps.

The thing is - right after start up, it will run and idle / purr like a kitten around 1k rpm for about 1 minute, then just die out - not really stumble and die, just continually idle lower until it dies.

There's no air pump. I used the kit from Banzai racing - the one that has ALL the block off plates, and removed everything that the plate covered.

2 vacuum lines only - one for the L / R mixture (which prob doesn't work due to air pump removal) and one for cruise control. ALL other ports on the UIM have been plugged - as well as the ones on the LIM.

Yesterday - I found that the LIM gasket was on reversed - picked up new gasket and installed. Double checked all vacuum plugs again and used a small plastic zip tie on each.....

I have a feeling its a combination between the coolant sensor and the fuel pressure.... since the previous owner has put in a cut off switch and jumpered the test connector - pump is on when key is on - full12v. To my understanding, doesn't the pump go from 12v to 9v during the running cycle - or was I mistaken?

Will advise. Thanks for the replies... still waiting to hopefully hear from HAILERS...?

blazer1313

You do still have a vacuum line going to your fuel pressure regulator...right?

wvumtnbkr

The fuel pump should not run until the key is switched to "START". WIth the key in the run ("ON") position, you should have to jumper the Yellow test connection (which it sounds like the previous owner did) to get it to run the fuel pump. Or, you could get the fuel pump to run with the key in the run ("ON") position by moving the AFM flapper door a little.

I would check into the fuel pump circuit and return that to normal before anything else!

zedd

Checked / adjusted TPS - normal
Checked coolant sensor - ok
Verified fuel line routing - high / low sides
Did -not- check crank angle sensor / timing
The FPR vacuum line was attached near the throttle body (where there were 2 small / 1 larger vac ports. Looked at FSM - moved FPR vac line to the port on the expansion chamber(?) of UIM.

Bought a new vacuum cleaner. Hooked it up to blow air into the intake - duct taped to the front of the AFM.
Coated the UIM with soapy water and turned the vac cleaner on.

Sat and watched in amazement at all of the bubbles!

Leaks at every injector where it enters both manifolds.
Leaks at the TB.
Leaks at one of the block off plates on the back of the UIM - huge leak
Leaks at adjustment screw on the top of the TB

Ordered injector seal kits x 4 at 8.00 a piece - will be here Thursday along with the TB o-ring.

Car was driven around the block - bucks / coughs to 3k RPM - after 3K RPM, it pulls hard / nice / even.

Will try to determine how to verify that the primary injectors are firing properly when I pull them out.

Next plan of action after the leaks are fixed: disconnect battery, set initial set jumper and try to make it idle.

Have pics - will upoad. Should have taken a picture of the bubble factory!

THANKS for everyone's input!

zedd

I've been looking for the location of the fuel pump resistor relay - where is this on an 88 NA Vert? Checked the FSM - no mention of it anywhere - only in the turbo FSM.

Verified that the fuel pump turns on when the AFM opens.
Removed test jumper for fuel pump
Will remove fuel pump cutoff switch that the previous owner installed

I think only 1 primary injector is firing (one closest to firewall). Will verify somehow...

Couple of issues discovered along the way: LIM gasket installed backwards as well as the thermostat...

zedd

guess there aren't any gurus!

wvumtnbkr

Leave the fuel pump cut-off switch! It will help you if you ever flood the car! It is sooo much simpler to have this switch than to pull fuses, etc.


As far as the fuel pump relay, I think on coupe NA's they didn't have one, but the NA verts there is. I belive it is different from the Turbo model relay. I will do some searching and see if I can find anything.

wvumtnbkr

I did some quick searching and can't find any evidence to support or deny that verts have fuel pump resister relays.

I did find a post about somebody with a turbo-swapped vert that found the relay by the drivers side of the firewall.

zedd

Injector o-ring kits wont be here till tomorrow 2pm.
Going to look into how to figure out if the injectors are working like they should.... hope there's an easy way rather than squirt gas all over! Got to read up in the FSM regarding which injectors are primary... If I were a betting man, I'd say that they were the ones located directly on the LIM... I could be wrong though - seems like the high pressure fuel line is routed to the FPR that's on the UIM fuel rail.... hm. That's the one that I suspect - not to mention, the friggen leaks around the bottom of the injectors at the manifold. I replaced all the o-rings along the fuel rail since those were the only ones I could find - got 1 kit from NAPA that only supplies the upper rubbery o-ring and the plastic spacer deal - not the bottom one. The ones I'm getting tomorrow will have everything - for fuel rail side and the manifold side.

Didn't work on the RX today - worked on the Talon's throttle body. That's another car that's goofy weird and tempermental like the 7.

Thanks again to those of you who chose to post replies and suggestions rather than post a whole paragraph about how the FSM is online for free and how I should search the forums for the answers. I certainly appreciate your input! If you're ever in FL and need a computer, let me know!

wvumtnbkr

Primary injectors are the ones that are on the short fuel rail underneath everything. THe FPR is on the return line to the fuel tank. The primary rail is the one that the fuel line should go to after the fuel filter.

Did you look by your firewall on teh drivers side for the fuel pump resister relay?

zedd

Didn't have much time with the car yesterday...

It seems the injector kit supplied by NAPA does not include ALL of the necessary parts. Got 4 kits manufactured by BECK - Arnley (?) that has ALL of the parts. The larger black "plastic" spacers are actually RUBBER (pliable not hard!) Imagine that.
SO. Tore down the UIM.

Primary fuel rail was CRUNCHY with sand and debris. Soaked it in gas and blew out with compressor.
Removed the banjo fitting that feeds the secondaries - cleaned out MUCH MUCH sand - the overall diameter of the fuel line was nearly 1/2 of what it should be. Which is odd since it seems as though the fuel comes IN through the primaries and then feeds the secondaries - or I may have that backwards? Logically speaking, high pressure fuel would come in through the secondary rail (with the FPR) and then feed the primary rail? I mean - why would I regulate fuel going BACK to the tank.. right?

Either way - this, along with ALL of the vacuum leaks would seem to cause my issue.
(no idle - primary fuel rail and injectors clogged w/ vacuum leaks)
(runs ok over 3k rpm - secondary rail and injectors kick in so theres plenty of fuel)

I verified the harness making sure that there's continuity and that the plugs are in the correct locations. Verified that all the injectors are the correct ones (high imp).

I will look for the resistor relay again today before I start the car. Still couldn't find that circuit in the FSM for the NA model - The T2 swapped car would have it, since that harness has the connectors for it - not to mention the ECU would have the pinouts that go back to that relay.

Got the vert top functional again, now the wipers are stuck.

IF there's one thing I've learned so far with this: don't assume that things are right, double check to verify. It also is extremely important to have / read the FSM and learn ALL of the systems in the car: I've spent a ton of time reading 4a and the wiring diag portions its not even funny. I even have a copy of the Mitchell On-Demand repair software that's proven to be extremely helpful.

IN DEFENSE of the guys that say "read the FSM" to the new posters here, I can see exactly what you mean. The fuel delivery system in these cars rely on so many various sensors / solenoids / relays that you HAVE to know how it works. The only way to learn is to READ read READ and learn how to troubleshoot / diagnose / verify that each individual component is operating within spec. Without a baseline for comparison (FSM specs) how can you tell if your parts are good or not???

Wish me luck.... will fire her up again today - AFTER I pressurize the intake to check for leaks ...

zedd

WOW. I just reread the replies. Might have found another issue.

Let me get this straight: The fuel line that's routed FROM the fuel filter on the firewall is routed to the SMALL injector rail under the UIM (primary injectors) - RIGHT ?

So the circuit goes: Fuel pump - external fuel filter by firewall - pulsation damper - primary rail - secondary rail - FPR - back to tank????

Will triple check this again today........ I have that funny feeling

zedd

The car is fixed.

Vacuum leaks everywhere and plugged / clogged fuel lines were the culprit. Thanks for the input WV.. appreciate it!