running on just leading coil better?
10-21-05, 07:24 PM
#1
i'm disrespectful to dirt
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running on just leading coil better?
i was just talking to a friend of mine and i told him that we had to unplug the trailing coil pack because of ignition breakup on the dyno. then he says that he heard it's better that way anyway. i'm thinking wtf and then he says that he was talking about it with this guy in the east coast that supposedly invented a device that wires the trailing coil pack to the leading. my friend isn't one to lie so i'm wondering if anyone else has heard anything about this.
10-21-05, 07:37 PM
#2
Rockn' The Galant
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I've never heard of it, but anything's possible with Rotarys I suppose! :P
The trailing burns off excess gas and is basically there for emission as far as I know...
- Tech
The trailing burns off excess gas and is basically there for emission as far as I know...
- Tech
10-21-05, 07:46 PM
#4
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
no point, the trailing coil is more for emission and smooth running than anything else. disabling it will not gain you anything except more un burned gas traveling out of the engine.
And spark break up means that the spark is not happening... so why would you disable the trailing coils and have 100% trailing spark break up???
And spark break up really doesn't start happening until 6500 RPM anyway... out of the power range of any stock or near stock motor.
And some of the race engines use 3 plugs per rotor... not 1... that should tell you something right there.
And spark break up means that the spark is not happening... so why would you disable the trailing coils and have 100% trailing spark break up???
And spark break up really doesn't start happening until 6500 RPM anyway... out of the power range of any stock or near stock motor.
And some of the race engines use 3 plugs per rotor... not 1... that should tell you something right there.
10-21-05, 08:03 PM
#5
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hey icemark.
if you had the stock leading coil hooked to a Jacobs FC1000 or similar ignition amplifier, do you think it would be about equal or better than the stock system? removing the trailing coils would clean up the drivers side of the bay a little more.
if you had the stock leading coil hooked to a Jacobs FC1000 or similar ignition amplifier, do you think it would be about equal or better than the stock system? removing the trailing coils would clean up the drivers side of the bay a little more.
10-21-05, 08:11 PM
#6
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
Originally Posted by jono20
hey icemark.
if you had the stock leading coil hooked to a Jacobs FC1000 or similar ignition amplifier, do you think it would be about equal or better than the stock system? removing the trailing coils would clean up the drivers side of the bay a little more.
if you had the stock leading coil hooked to a Jacobs FC1000 or similar ignition amplifier, do you think it would be about equal or better than the stock system? removing the trailing coils would clean up the drivers side of the bay a little more.
But then I use the normal operating temp plugs most of the time.
So to answer your question, IMO a CDI makes the stock system better for extended high RPM operation, but I would never expect it to make up for the trailing coil spark.
But again, I see no point in removing the trailing coils. It is a waste of time, and the engine runs better with them.
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10-21-05, 11:06 PM
#8
i'm disrespectful to dirt
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Icemark
no point, the trailing coil is more for emission and smooth running than anything else. disabling it will not gain you anything except more un burned gas traveling out of the engine.
Originally Posted by Icemark
And spark break up means that the spark is not happening... so why would you disable the trailing coils and have 100% trailing spark break up???
And spark break up really doesn't start happening until 6500 RPM anyway... out of the power range of any stock or near stock motor.
And spark break up really doesn't start happening until 6500 RPM anyway... out of the power range of any stock or near stock motor.
Originally Posted by Icemark
And some of the race engines use 3 plugs per rotor... not 1... that should tell you something right there.
10-21-05, 11:51 PM
#9
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KDR started this Anti-Detonation Device crap.
All it was was to remove the two trailing plugs and disable them - then they inserted a machined plug to cap the trailing plug holes.
They claimed by not firing the trailings, the mixture stays richer and supresses detonation.
What a bunch of bullshit.
You can do a keyword search on "anti detonation device" and read about it yourself.
Would you pay $400+ for a couple of plugs???
Mazda claims up to 10% of the power is produced by the firing of the trailings spark plugs - it's in an SAE paper.
It is primarily there to clean up emissions and burn the mixture more completely.
If there is ignition problems, it's not the trailings plugs that are firing that is causing the problem - look elsewhere.
On a properly running 13B, the trailings do not induce more ignition break-up cause of the trailings spark plugs firing.
-Ted
All it was was to remove the two trailing plugs and disable them - then they inserted a machined plug to cap the trailing plug holes.
They claimed by not firing the trailings, the mixture stays richer and supresses detonation.
What a bunch of bullshit.
You can do a keyword search on "anti detonation device" and read about it yourself.
Would you pay $400+ for a couple of plugs???
Mazda claims up to 10% of the power is produced by the firing of the trailings spark plugs - it's in an SAE paper.
It is primarily there to clean up emissions and burn the mixture more completely.
If there is ignition problems, it's not the trailings plugs that are firing that is causing the problem - look elsewhere.
On a properly running 13B, the trailings do not induce more ignition break-up cause of the trailings spark plugs firing.
-Ted
10-22-05, 12:25 AM
#10
i'm disrespectful to dirt
Thread Starter
when i was talking to my friend he made it sound like the device wired the trailing coil straight from the leading so it would be like running 2 leading coils, but i could've misunderstood.
the car runs perfect with just the leading coil. when the trailing coil is plugged in everything runs fine until the higher rpms. the person tuning it thought i wired the microtech to the trailing backwards, but when i checked it was right. one of my plug wires was wedged between the alt and fender wall... i don't know if that may have had anything to do with it.
the car runs perfect with just the leading coil. when the trailing coil is plugged in everything runs fine until the higher rpms. the person tuning it thought i wired the microtech to the trailing backwards, but when i checked it was right. one of my plug wires was wedged between the alt and fender wall... i don't know if that may have had anything to do with it.
10-22-05, 12:27 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by MrSparkle
when i was talking to my friend he made it sound like the device wired the trailing coil straight from the leading so it would be like running 2 leading coils, but i could've misunderstood.
What it comes down to is it tries to cover up poor tuning, period.
-Ted
10-22-05, 12:38 AM
#12
Rockn' The Galant
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Question for you guys,
I've got a little issue past 7,000 RPM...SonicRAT said he thinks it's spark break up, which I cleaned the plugs off and it still does this.
It did the same thing my first generation did at high rpms, but I could also advance the timing on it (SE) and it would disappear...
So with that being said, is it normal for that high rpm bumpage to be there (ie 7,000 to 7,200 bogs, 7,200 to 7,500 is normal, 7,500 to 8,000 RPM is bogs again)...
Will a aftermarket ignition (MSD, whatever) solve my problem or do you think it lies somewhere else?
The SAFCII is set on 0% correction all the way across the band to make sure that wasn't the problem...
I've got a little issue past 7,000 RPM...SonicRAT said he thinks it's spark break up, which I cleaned the plugs off and it still does this.
It did the same thing my first generation did at high rpms, but I could also advance the timing on it (SE) and it would disappear...
So with that being said, is it normal for that high rpm bumpage to be there (ie 7,000 to 7,200 bogs, 7,200 to 7,500 is normal, 7,500 to 8,000 RPM is bogs again)...
Will a aftermarket ignition (MSD, whatever) solve my problem or do you think it lies somewhere else?
The SAFCII is set on 0% correction all the way across the band to make sure that wasn't the problem...
10-22-05, 12:41 AM
#13
i'm disrespectful to dirt
Thread Starter
how much power can the stock trailing coil pack handle before cdi boxes are needed? i want to fix this break up problem before the next time i go to the dyno.
10-22-05, 12:43 AM
#14
Originally Posted by MrSparkle
how much power can the stock trailing coil pack handle before cdi boxes are needed? i want to fix this break up problem before the next time i go to the dyno.
10-22-05, 12:48 AM
#16
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lemme clarify this...
it wasn't ignition breakup on the dyno... i think the trailing coils were either wired incorrectly, or some other problem, but it was misfiring...not breaking up.
the reason i tried unplugging the trails was just to test that... it worked and i didn't want him to waste a trip all the way up here, so we went ahead and tuned it on just the leading. i said add ~5ish hp to whatever the number was once the trailing gets figured out right.
ted, i think you misunderstood the "safe" zero split. i've heard of that before. basically, you'd wire both leading and trailing coils to the trailing lead and turn your split down to zero. this would give you zero split without the chance of the trailing firing before the leading. this isn't the same thing as the "anti-detonation device" in any way, shape, or form.
it wasn't ignition breakup on the dyno... i think the trailing coils were either wired incorrectly, or some other problem, but it was misfiring...not breaking up.
the reason i tried unplugging the trails was just to test that... it worked and i didn't want him to waste a trip all the way up here, so we went ahead and tuned it on just the leading. i said add ~5ish hp to whatever the number was once the trailing gets figured out right.
ted, i think you misunderstood the "safe" zero split. i've heard of that before. basically, you'd wire both leading and trailing coils to the trailing lead and turn your split down to zero. this would give you zero split without the chance of the trailing firing before the leading. this isn't the same thing as the "anti-detonation device" in any way, shape, or form.
10-22-05, 01:23 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by GUITARJUNKIE28
ted, i think you misunderstood the "safe" zero split. i've heard of that before. basically, you'd wire both leading and trailing coils to the trailing lead and turn your split down to zero. this would give you zero split without the chance of the trailing firing before the leading. this isn't the same thing as the "anti-detonation device" in any way, shape, or form.
It removes one "set" of spark events in the ignition timing.
In fact, removing the leadings and just firing the trailings (at 0 split), 1) removes the trailing spark event (duh), and 2) eliminates the "far trailing" spark event that the wastespark'd leading used to do.
If the trailings are firing before the leadings, there is something seriously wrong (ignoring that thread that uses this method for off load ranges) -> bad tuning or bad wiring.
-Ted
10-22-05, 08:52 AM
#20
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Originally Posted by RETed
If the trailings are firing before the leadings, there is something seriously wrong (ignoring that thread that uses this method for off load ranges) -> bad tuning or bad wiring.
-Ted
the "safe" zero split is a way to have the advantages of 2 plugs per rotor, without the possibility of the trailing firing first.
anjew, this wasn't breakup. it was a misfire. whenever jeff wakes up he'll get my pm and we'll see if he can get the car up here today or sometime soon and we'll get the trailing figured out. i bet 10 minutes and a timing light will fix the problem, but there's only so much diagnostic stuff you can actually do on the dyno.
10-22-05, 02:53 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by GUITARJUNKIE28
now you're assuming the ecu to be 100% reliable, 100% of the time, right? anyone here trust their ecu to actually turn their split down to zero and go for it? it's got nothing to do with tuning.
How many people in this thread do you think are running a stand-alone EMS?
-Ted
10-22-05, 11:16 PM
#25
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Originally Posted by GUITARJUNKIE28
quit trying to pick a fight. you didn't have a basis on technical info, so you're resorting to semantics?
go fight someone else.
go fight someone else.
99% of the folks in here are running on stock ECU's.
This thread has no use for them.
I just wanted to state that explicitly before we get a bazillion threads asking how to do this and adjust trailing split...
duh
-Ted