Rotary Aviation Seals. Are they better now or are the old rumors still true?
BOOSTED Vert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,307
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From: Miami
Originally Posted by scathcart
They flattened on me in stock N/A engines.
If it seems to anyone that I am dumping on these seals... perhaps I am. A search for my name will reveal EXTENSIVE testing I did on these seals... I used to be completely infatuated with them, and recommended them to everyone They withstand detonation amazingly. But, on the endurance side of things, only one set of apex seals hasn't had to be pulled apart due to extremely low compression.
I don't know what to say about that one engine... I have no idea what is different about it. I can only imagine taht it was a batch of seals with a different treating process on the metal, or a different alloy... It'll be interesting to see its internals when we pull it apart this winter to replace the engine with a REW. The engine will be rolling over 50,000 miles this week sometime.
I sincerely hope that my encounters are an isolated event. I can't honestly imagine what I am doing differently from others if I am killing these engines through some other factor, although I do tend to tune a lot more lean than others.
Only time will tell.
If it seems to anyone that I am dumping on these seals... perhaps I am. A search for my name will reveal EXTENSIVE testing I did on these seals... I used to be completely infatuated with them, and recommended them to everyone They withstand detonation amazingly. But, on the endurance side of things, only one set of apex seals hasn't had to be pulled apart due to extremely low compression.
I don't know what to say about that one engine... I have no idea what is different about it. I can only imagine taht it was a batch of seals with a different treating process on the metal, or a different alloy... It'll be interesting to see its internals when we pull it apart this winter to replace the engine with a REW. The engine will be rolling over 50,000 miles this week sometime.
I sincerely hope that my encounters are an isolated event. I can't honestly imagine what I am doing differently from others if I am killing these engines through some other factor, although I do tend to tune a lot more lean than others.
Only time will tell.
I wish I was driving!
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,241
Likes: 84
From: BC, Canada
Originally Posted by KillerRx4
Wheres those pics scathcart? That is a real worry for those of us using RA seals...
Obviously you had a problem requiring the pull down of the engine. Was is a compression drop or did something let go?
I have just over 2500km on my engine which has the full RA seal kit (2mm apex + RA springs, side seals, corners etc).
Last tune made 252Kw (338HP) on 20psi & 98 RON pump fuel.
Will have it on the dyno again in the next couple of weeks to tune more timing & chase more power.
Obviously you had a problem requiring the pull down of the engine. Was is a compression drop or did something let go?
I have just over 2500km on my engine which has the full RA seal kit (2mm apex + RA springs, side seals, corners etc).
Last tune made 252Kw (338HP) on 20psi & 98 RON pump fuel.
Will have it on the dyno again in the next couple of weeks to tune more timing & chase more power.
The engines made great power... in some cases over 450 hp. Then, they would just start losing compression (and ultimately, losing power)... dropping to below 60 psi in some cases. Pulling the engines apart to find the source of the low compression and you would find extreme rotor housing wear and destoryed rotor grooves.
Like I said, I hope this is an isolated incident. I did buy the majority of the seals around a standard 12 month timeframe, which would have been about 12 months ago since I bought me last set. The majority of the seals were the stamped numbers... I think I still have a set laying around. I'll take pictures of the exact seal model I was using, as well.
I wish I was driving!
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,241
Likes: 84
From: BC, Canada
Originally Posted by MARTIN
Have you actually broken or had a seal crack ???
My testing involved boosting an engine to 12 psi, holding it at throttle with an engine brake, and then shutting of the rear secondary injector. You'd get audible knock, and then you'd hear the typical blown rotary sound. Sometimes, the apex seals completely survived, while the side seals and corner seals were destroyed.
Never had a RA seal let go while being driven.
BOOSTED Vert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,307
Likes: 0
From: Miami
Originally Posted by scathcart
I have been busy lately... The housing I am referring to are safely holding a set of plates together in my shop, which is an hour's drive away, and of course, whenever I go to the shop, I forget to take the camera. I promise I will have pics up here by saturday. I think 88Integrals will be hosting them so that we can keep them high-res for all the detail.
The engines made great power... in some cases over 450 hp. Then, they would just start losing compression (and ultimately, losing power)... dropping to below 60 psi in some cases. Pulling the engines apart to find the source of the low compression and you would find extreme rotor housing wear and destoryed rotor grooves.
Like I said, I hope this is an isolated incident. I did buy the majority of the seals around a standard 12 month timeframe, which would have been about 12 months ago since I bought me last set. The majority of the seals were the stamped numbers... I think I still have a set laying around. I'll take pictures of the exact seal model I was using, as well.
The engines made great power... in some cases over 450 hp. Then, they would just start losing compression (and ultimately, losing power)... dropping to below 60 psi in some cases. Pulling the engines apart to find the source of the low compression and you would find extreme rotor housing wear and destoryed rotor grooves.
Like I said, I hope this is an isolated incident. I did buy the majority of the seals around a standard 12 month timeframe, which would have been about 12 months ago since I bought me last set. The majority of the seals were the stamped numbers... I think I still have a set laying around. I'll take pictures of the exact seal model I was using, as well.
I wish I was driving!
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,241
Likes: 84
From: BC, Canada
Originally Posted by MARTIN
the comp problem could be side and corner seals also..
The engines where the compression would just slowly drop had no side or corner seal problems... the problem was always the same: extreme scoring of the chrome of the rotor housing, sometimes stripping it completely off in patches, and the apex seal grooves would be orn in a v-shape at the top, and way out of spec. The side seals and corner seals would show no signs of blowby, and still be spot-on to the clearance I set them to in building the engine.
BOOSTED Vert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,307
Likes: 0
From: Miami
Originally Posted by scathcart
I only experienced the side and corner seal problems on the test engines. That was simply because the detonation took out the next weakest link, when the apex seals became strong enough to prevent breakage.
The engines where the compression would just slowly drop had no side or corner seal problems... the problem was always the same: extreme scoring of the chrome of the rotor housing, sometimes stripping it completely off in patches, and the apex seal grooves would be orn in a v-shape at the top, and way out of spec. The side seals and corner seals would show no signs of blowby, and still be spot-on to the clearance I set them to in building the engine.
The engines where the compression would just slowly drop had no side or corner seal problems... the problem was always the same: extreme scoring of the chrome of the rotor housing, sometimes stripping it completely off in patches, and the apex seal grooves would be orn in a v-shape at the top, and way out of spec. The side seals and corner seals would show no signs of blowby, and still be spot-on to the clearance I set them to in building the engine.
The scoring can be other factors too... You say that you run higher afrs than normal, this leads to high temp and even though you are not detonating, you could be causing damage to the housing itself. Not to mention that if you know that your tuning will lead to high temps, then your premix mixture should be more saturated.
Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
From: Sydney, Australia
How many engines have you noticed this with scathcart?
Perhaps I should grab some oem seals & assamble another engine in anticipation of the worst? Damn need to find good rotors too it seems.
Perhaps I should grab some oem seals & assamble another engine in anticipation of the worst? Damn need to find good rotors too it seems.
Originally Posted by scathcart
I completely understand where you are coming from. I am not insulted.
When I build, all of the rotor seals are lubricated with ample amounts of vasoline. The side plates, rotor housing faces, bearings, and eccentric shafts are all coated with Royal Purple Engine Assembly lube. Once the engine is assembled, I spin the engine by hand to check for bind, and put an extra squirt of assembly lube in each combustion chamber. When installing the oil pump, I lubricate the rotor faces with assembly lube, use a paper gasket, and fill the passage with some 10W30. I also like to fill the oil cooler lines w/ 10W30 before bolting them on. Before I spin on the oil filter, I fill the two passages in the pedestal with 10W30. I then turn the engine over by hand, with the spark plugs out, until oil starts coming into the oil filter pedestal, letting me know that the oil cooler has been filled after being flushed out when the engine was removed.
Next, I fill the gas tank with 80:1 premixed gasoline from a jug. I jump power to the fuel pump to run the premixed gasoline through the system, for several minutes. Then, I disconnect power to fuel and spark, and crank the engine over until I see full oil pressure on the gauge... this typically only takes me 10 seconds. If you don't fill the oiling system before hand, this takes 45-60 seconds....
I then start the engines, and run them until it stops smoking, about 45 minutes, then do a complete oil and filter change.
I am super-**** about lubrication to my engines. I have heard of other people disconnecting the MOP control rod for 500 miles so that their engine breaks in faster without any negative results... so I can't possibly see how my excessive over-oiling compared to this could possibly cause more wear.
I can't see any way this is not an apex seal problem. I'll have pics up this weekend, remind me.... You might want to see them before you start your build.
When I build, all of the rotor seals are lubricated with ample amounts of vasoline. The side plates, rotor housing faces, bearings, and eccentric shafts are all coated with Royal Purple Engine Assembly lube. Once the engine is assembled, I spin the engine by hand to check for bind, and put an extra squirt of assembly lube in each combustion chamber. When installing the oil pump, I lubricate the rotor faces with assembly lube, use a paper gasket, and fill the passage with some 10W30. I also like to fill the oil cooler lines w/ 10W30 before bolting them on. Before I spin on the oil filter, I fill the two passages in the pedestal with 10W30. I then turn the engine over by hand, with the spark plugs out, until oil starts coming into the oil filter pedestal, letting me know that the oil cooler has been filled after being flushed out when the engine was removed.
Next, I fill the gas tank with 80:1 premixed gasoline from a jug. I jump power to the fuel pump to run the premixed gasoline through the system, for several minutes. Then, I disconnect power to fuel and spark, and crank the engine over until I see full oil pressure on the gauge... this typically only takes me 10 seconds. If you don't fill the oiling system before hand, this takes 45-60 seconds....
I then start the engines, and run them until it stops smoking, about 45 minutes, then do a complete oil and filter change.
I am super-**** about lubrication to my engines. I have heard of other people disconnecting the MOP control rod for 500 miles so that their engine breaks in faster without any negative results... so I can't possibly see how my excessive over-oiling compared to this could possibly cause more wear.
I can't see any way this is not an apex seal problem. I'll have pics up this weekend, remind me.... You might want to see them before you start your build.
Well damn you have me thinking twice about these seals however like the guy two posts up said, it could be because your running leaner a/f numbers and if thats the case maybe oem seals are better for that kind of tuning rather than the RA seals. I'd love for you to put those seals back in an engine and run the engine with a little milder tuning to see how it goes. Or maybe you have already done that and it's done the same thing?? Thanks for the reply by the way.
Locust of the apocalypse
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,553
Likes: 2
From: Directly above the center of the earth (York, PA)
OK.... So.. I bought my kit BEFORE they put the warning out about NOT using their springs with hight than stock boost.....
The motor has about 6K on it now, and still holeds 17in of vac at idle when full hot after beating on it.. (which i think is pretty damn good for a ported motor) BUT... I'm getting this funny feeling like its not boosting quite as hard as it did.....
I run about 14 PSI max... but am planning on stepping up to a p-trin BallBearing Turbo over the winter.....
Maybe I'm just getting used to the power now.. but it just seems like its not hitting quite as hard under boost as it used to......
My question is..
Can this problem with the springs leave the vac at idle alone and alow blowby under boost???
And......
WTF am I supposed to do if the springs go **** up on me..... there was no freakin warning that they could when i bought the kit... I REALLY would rather NOT tear my motor down again just to replace the damn springs....
The motor has about 6K on it now, and still holeds 17in of vac at idle when full hot after beating on it.. (which i think is pretty damn good for a ported motor) BUT... I'm getting this funny feeling like its not boosting quite as hard as it did.....
I run about 14 PSI max... but am planning on stepping up to a p-trin BallBearing Turbo over the winter.....
Maybe I'm just getting used to the power now.. but it just seems like its not hitting quite as hard under boost as it used to......
My question is..
Can this problem with the springs leave the vac at idle alone and alow blowby under boost???
And......
WTF am I supposed to do if the springs go **** up on me..... there was no freakin warning that they could when i bought the kit... I REALLY would rather NOT tear my motor down again just to replace the damn springs....
Last edited by YearsOfDecay; Aug 16, 2005 at 10:25 AM.
Mr.Rota
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
From: Kennewick
Originally Posted by YearsOfDecay
OK.... So.. I bought my kit BEFORE they put the warning out about NOT using their springs with hight than stock boost.....
The motor has about 6K on it now, and still holeds 17in of vac at idle when full hot after beating on it.. (which i think is pretty damn good for a ported motor) BUT... I'm getting this funny feeling like its not boosting quite as hard as it did.....
I run about 14 PSI max... but am planning on stepping up to a p-trin BallBearing Turbo over the winter.....
Maybe I'm just getting used to the power now.. but it just seems like its not hitting quite as hard under boost as it used to......
My question is..
Can this problem with the springs leave the vac at idle alone and alow blowby under boost???
And......
WTF am I supposed to do if the springs go **** up on me..... there was no freakin warning that they could when i bought the kit... I REALLY would rather NOT tear my motor down again just to replace the damn springs....
The motor has about 6K on it now, and still holeds 17in of vac at idle when full hot after beating on it.. (which i think is pretty damn good for a ported motor) BUT... I'm getting this funny feeling like its not boosting quite as hard as it did.....
I run about 14 PSI max... but am planning on stepping up to a p-trin BallBearing Turbo over the winter.....
Maybe I'm just getting used to the power now.. but it just seems like its not hitting quite as hard under boost as it used to......
My question is..
Can this problem with the springs leave the vac at idle alone and alow blowby under boost???
And......
WTF am I supposed to do if the springs go **** up on me..... there was no freakin warning that they could when i bought the kit... I REALLY would rather NOT tear my motor down again just to replace the damn springs....
Last edited by fc3sxtasy87; Aug 16, 2005 at 10:38 AM. Reason: forgot to mention the kit was RA
I would be. Don't use the apex seal springs. It is cheap insurance just buying the oem springs. as far as YOD goes the guy a few sentances up with the 20b running the ra springs seems to be having good luck with them and alot of boost however most of the people out there have not had good luck with them so really it's a matter of do you want to change them sooner or later? I would change them sooner for preventitive measures sake.
Locust of the apocalypse
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,553
Likes: 2
From: Directly above the center of the earth (York, PA)
Well, The email I got from Laura Crook said don't worry about it unless I'm running over 18 PSI of boost.. I'm not, so...... Fahgettaboutit..
IF... something DOES go wrong with the springs... Hmmmmmm.. 289 with a Weiand blower sitting in mothballs from the old 67 cougar............... have to get a new intake manifold for port injection and a t-body from Marren to make it work with the haltech.... but.........
IF... something DOES go wrong with the springs... Hmmmmmm.. 289 with a Weiand blower sitting in mothballs from the old 67 cougar............... have to get a new intake manifold for port injection and a t-body from Marren to make it work with the haltech.... but.........
BOOSTED Vert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,307
Likes: 0
From: Miami
Originally Posted by YearsOfDecay
Well, The email I got from Laura Crook said don't worry about it unless I'm running over 18 PSI of boost.. I'm not, so...... Fahgettaboutit..
IF... something DOES go wrong with the springs... Hmmmmmm.. 289 with a Weiand blower sitting in mothballs from the old 67 cougar............... have to get a new intake manifold for port injection and a t-body from Marren to make it work with the haltech.... but.........
IF... something DOES go wrong with the springs... Hmmmmmm.. 289 with a Weiand blower sitting in mothballs from the old 67 cougar............... have to get a new intake manifold for port injection and a t-body from Marren to make it work with the haltech.... but.........
And no, apex seals dont cause blowby, the corner and side seals are the culprits...
yeah laura was cool as hell to me too. I ordered an oring kit for an 86-88 and found out later that the core was actually an s5 so laura said she would send me the oring that was needed for the s5 and sure enough she sent it right away. Very cool she is I wonder if she is hot, hahah.
I wonder if she is hot, hahah.
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,576
Likes: 27
From: Morristown, TN (east of Knoxville)
Heh...that's nice and all, but all the block o-rings for s4 and s5 engines are the same 
The only oring I can think of that is different is the OMP or thermostat.
Now that's what I call customer service: getting the customer to think you did something great for them, when you actually didn't do anything special at all.
The only oring I can think of that is different is the OMP or thermostat.
Now that's what I call customer service: getting the customer to think you did something great for them, when you actually didn't do anything special at all.
I wish I was driving!
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,241
Likes: 84
From: BC, Canada
Originally Posted by MARTIN
The scoring can be other factors too... You say that you run higher afrs than normal, this leads to high temp and even though you are not detonating, you could be causing damage to the housing itself. Not to mention that if you know that your tuning will lead to high temps, then your premix mixture should be more saturated.
Premixing is already 4-5 times that of the stock metering oil pump.
I wish I was driving!
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,241
Likes: 84
From: BC, Canada
Originally Posted by hondahater
hum....sounds like a pretty damn good process you have there of lubing your engine Well damn you have me thinking twice about these seals however like the guy two posts up said, it could be because your running leaner a/f numbers and if thats the case maybe oem seals are better for that kind of tuning rather than the RA seals. I'd love for you to put those seals back in an engine and run the engine with a little milder tuning to see how it goes. Or maybe you have already done that and it's done the same thing?? Thanks for the reply by the way.
Well damn you have me thinking twice about these seals however like the guy two posts up said, it could be because your running leaner a/f numbers and if thats the case maybe oem seals are better for that kind of tuning rather than the RA seals. I'd love for you to put those seals back in an engine and run the engine with a little milder tuning to see how it goes. Or maybe you have already done that and it's done the same thing?? Thanks for the reply by the way.I wish I was driving!
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,241
Likes: 84
From: BC, Canada
Originally Posted by KillerRx4
How many engines have you noticed this with scathcart?
Perhaps I should grab some oem seals & assamble another engine in anticipation of the worst? Damn need to find good rotors too it seems.
Perhaps I should grab some oem seals & assamble another engine in anticipation of the worst? Damn need to find good rotors too it seems.
I have an engine sitting aside for the one remaining.
I wish I was driving!
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,241
Likes: 84
From: BC, Canada
Originally Posted by YearsOfDecay
Can this problem with the springs leave the vac at idle alone and alow blowby under boost???
Originally Posted by MARTIN
And no, apex seals dont cause blowby, the corner and side seals are the culprits...
Personally, I would check cranking compression and monitor it.
I wish I was driving!
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,241
Likes: 84
From: BC, Canada
Originally Posted by RotaryResurrection
Heh...that's nice and all, but all the block o-rings for s4 and s5 engines are the same
The only oring I can think of that is different is the OMP or thermostat.
The only oring I can think of that is different is the OMP or thermostat.
But RA doesn't use the white ring, they supply two different sized rubber o-rings. On an S4, you use a smaller rubber o-ring, and on an S5, you would use a larger rubber o-ring.
RA is the only ones I know of that do this.
I prefer the teflon ring setup, myself.
interesting stuff there scathcart. I wonder if anyone else has had any of the same bad things happen to them. I know the guy thats helping me with my rebuild says non of the rebuilders he knows wouldn't even dream about putting RA seals in because they are crap. But then alot of people on this site love them. I'm confused.
Laying Down Rotary Law
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,075
Likes: 1
From: central florida
crap?
Thats some strong words
there
I made over 500 rwhp
3000+ miles of hard driving
and the RA seals are PERFECT
starts right up even after hard runs
I did use OEM springs
and I was one of the 1st people here
that advised you all to use OEM springs
since I got feed back from lots of Drag Racers that was using there seals
and reported to me the springs would go flat
But the seals would take 300 shot of N20 with no issues
don't blame bad tuning/setups
for you bad engines
OEM seals break
when you run lean or EGT's go to high
RA seals bend
engine savior if you ask me
make a poll
How many have broken OEM seals
TONS of people have
I detroyed a turbo, housing and put a deep deep scratch on a rotor
with OEM seals in the past
with Atkins or RA seals
the damage is less
Thats some strong words
there
I made over 500 rwhp
3000+ miles of hard driving
and the RA seals are PERFECT
starts right up even after hard runs
I did use OEM springs
and I was one of the 1st people here
that advised you all to use OEM springs
since I got feed back from lots of Drag Racers that was using there seals
and reported to me the springs would go flat
But the seals would take 300 shot of N20 with no issues
don't blame bad tuning/setups
for you bad engines
OEM seals break
when you run lean or EGT's go to high
RA seals bend
engine savior if you ask me
make a poll
How many have broken OEM seals
TONS of people have
I detroyed a turbo, housing and put a deep deep scratch on a rotor
with OEM seals in the past
with Atkins or RA seals
the damage is less
Last edited by kabooski; Aug 17, 2005 at 08:35 AM.
Hobby or mental illness?
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 478
Likes: 0
From: SW Washington
Anyone check the hardness of the RA seals? I know they are harder than stock, but has anyone quantified the hardness? Rockwell #? It sounds as though the RA seals are made of a decent grade of tool steel. Being made from tool steel could explain why the early seals warped due to excessive heat while being ground. If the seal face isn't profiled correctly I can see the edge digging into the housing and once it started digging in opening up the slot in the rotor from the heavy loading. If an engine made it through enough miles that the seal edge wore down a little it might very well last nearly forever. Just thought I'd throw this out there and see what you guys think.