Ok lets dispense with the old rumors and all, are the RA seals now better and a bit softer fixing their old problems. Supposedly there was a bad batch of sorts. Anybody know anything about this and would they be better than atkins seals.

 

I dont know about being better, but i just got the RA kit and the inner ones are like teflon encapsuled and the outers are like teflon coated. I liked them but still have to be streached.

 

Hmm. I knew they were having problems before with Net Seven and 88integraLS saying that they were killing rotor housins and I dont want to have the same issue crop up when i do my rebuild. Also another good question what about the springs that they have. I heard their springs also suck.

 

Houstonderk - You're thinking of the wrong seals. He was talking about Apex Seals, you were thinking of O-Rings

Dltreezan - Yes, that was dispelled a long time ago. The first run of their seal (Um.. 100 seals I think?) were over-hardened or something from the metalshop. There haven't been any of those problems for a long time. There's been lots of debates over this, and I can't seem to find any great conclusion. I'm using RA seals, and I'm happy with them, but I don't have anything to compare it to

 

Ah okay scared me alittle bit.

 

thanks for the clarification. i want to port my car before the rebuild and use those seals and megasquirt and try to go the way or Lysholm in the future if it works out 88LS. But now what about the springs?

 

I am running them without any issues, the "word" is that Mazda's springs are waaaaay better than the RA springs, so the idea is to run RA seals, and Mazda springs. I am running RA seals and springs (actually the whole kit), and haven't had any problems yet, then again I am not running 300HP or anything like that.

 

I'm not having any issues with the stock springs, but I only have about maybe 15k on my car since I rebuilt it. I'm also probably putting down maybe 200 HP (ported NA with a MS). So I'm not exactly a great case study..

I'm not sure where to find a discussion on the springs, sorry

 

My buddy runs the RA apex seals and springs in his FD with a FMIC, single turbo, etc. and he hasn't had any problems. The car is putting down well over 300RWHP IIRC.

I have both in my car as well, but an electrical gremlin is keeping it from running, so I can't comment yet

 

right from the site: "Note: Springs are for STOCK TURBO and NON NITROUS engines only. Please use OEM springs for high boost turbo and nitrous applications."

I'm going to use stock springs for my next rebuild.

 

ok sounds good. RA rebuild with stock springs then sounds like the way to go for me.

 

If you're going to have boost, don't use the RA springs, they flatten over time just in n/a applications. (edit, didn't notice this was already mentioned)

Just remember this, atkins = soft, RA = hard, OEM = happy medium. Choose what you want, they all have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

There's a LONG thread somewhere (probably Rotary Performance) about this.

A certain batch of seals had been overheated in milling, due to the milling place not properly cooling/lubricating the seals in the milling machine. They warped at high temperatures, and stopped sealing. This was discovered, the problem was fixed, the new seals are fine, and I believe there was a free exchange of seals from that time period for fixed ones.

I'm using them in my NA, and they work fine.

-=Russ=-

 

Some of the guys claim to have had problems more recently, there is a thread in rotary performance (I believe) about it. I have used a few sets of them without issue, but all in the short-term so I cant comment in one way or another.

 

That'd be me. Set of RA 2mm stamped numbered seals nearly completely stripped the chrome off a set of brand new rotor housings in about 4000 miles. This was on a N/A bridgeport. I am still working on grabbing pictures... will have them up by the end of the week.

 

ouch...

i knew there was a reason i paid a little more for the mazda seals.

 

Wheres those pics scathcart? That is a real worry for those of us using RA seals...

Obviously you had a problem requiring the pull down of the engine. Was is a compression drop or did something let go?

I have just over 2500km on my engine which has the full RA seal kit (2mm apex + RA springs, side seals, corners etc).

Last tune made 252Kw (338HP) on 20psi & 98 RON pump fuel.
Will have it on the dyno again in the next couple of weeks to tune more timing & chase more power.

 

well I do trust scathcart so it kinda sucks to hear that. I just recieved my RA apex seals and oem springs and am about to do the rebuild. Would really hate for this to happen. Hey scathcart this may sound like a retarded questions and sorry to insult you this way but did you properly prime the system before trying to crank the engine? Did you oil up the rotors and housings while you where putting together the motor?

 

scathcart....were those seals the old batch or the new batch?

James

 

they are pretty strong seals, probably a bit too harsh however.. the springs do suck,, netseven flattend the springs!!! but the actual apex seals held up to some detonation just fine.

 

That's also because he didn't follow their directions. On their site they specifically say to not use their springs for nitrous or higher than stock boost levels. He was ported with a BNR stage 3 or something right? Definitely shouldn't have been using the springs.

Also, I believe 88WayneN/A has about 20-30k? Or something miles on his rebuilt engine with brand new housings, RA seals/springs, and still running strong last I heard. I have about 3-3.5k on the engine I rebuilt last summer (just sold) that never went down in compression, power, or driveability. I peaked in the exhaust ports and everything looked super still. Maybe scathcart had some bad luck or some of the old batch that were screwed up.

 

New batch.

 

Correct.. They specifically mention that in their own site... I however have ignored their warning and am using their springs
(going 3 rotor ) with t70 at 20psi. Havent had a problem with them. I should be right around the 500hp mark high 400's I would say. I noticed that on the tear down, I did have some wear on the housings after less than 100 miles, but I traced it back to the mop. I have since been using premix and now is when Im pushing to the 20psi limit, were as before I was at 10.

 

I completely understand where you are coming from. I am not insulted.

When I build, all of the rotor seals are lubricated with ample amounts of vasoline. The side plates, rotor housing faces, bearings, and eccentric shafts are all coated with Royal Purple Engine Assembly lube. Once the engine is assembled, I spin the engine by hand to check for bind, and put an extra squirt of assembly lube in each combustion chamber. When installing the oil pump, I lubricate the rotor faces with assembly lube, use a paper gasket, and fill the passage with some 10W30. I also like to fill the oil cooler lines w/ 10W30 before bolting them on. Before I spin on the oil filter, I fill the two passages in the pedestal with 10W30. I then turn the engine over by hand, with the spark plugs out, until oil starts coming into the oil filter pedestal, letting me know that the oil cooler has been filled after being flushed out when the engine was removed.

Next, I fill the gas tank with 80:1 premixed gasoline from a jug. I jump power to the fuel pump to run the premixed gasoline through the system, for several minutes. Then, I disconnect power to fuel and spark, and crank the engine over until I see full oil pressure on the gauge... this typically only takes me 10 seconds. If you don't fill the oiling system before hand, this takes 45-60 seconds....
I then start the engines, and run them until it stops smoking, about 45 minutes, then do a complete oil and filter change.

I am super-**** about lubrication to my engines. I have heard of other people disconnecting the MOP control rod for 500 miles so that their engine breaks in faster without any negative results... so I can't possibly see how my excessive over-oiling compared to this could possibly cause more wear.

I can't see any way this is not an apex seal problem. I'll have pics up this weekend, remind me.... You might want to see them before you start your build.

 

They flattened on me in stock N/A engines.

If it seems to anyone that I am dumping on these seals... perhaps I am. A search for my name will reveal EXTENSIVE testing I did on these seals... I used to be completely infatuated with them, and recommended them to everyone They withstand detonation amazingly. But, on the endurance side of things, only one set of apex seals hasn't had to be pulled apart due to extremely low compression.
I don't know what to say about that one engine... I have no idea what is different about it. I can only imagine taht it was a batch of seals with a different treating process on the metal, or a different alloy... It'll be interesting to see its internals when we pull it apart this winter to replace the engine with a REW. The engine will be rolling over 50,000 miles this week sometime.

I sincerely hope that my encounters are an isolated event. I can't honestly imagine what I am doing differently from others if I am killing these engines through some other factor, although I do tend to tune a lot more lean than others.

Only time will tell.