Ram Air VDI Mod for FC?
07-17-16, 06:29 PM
#51
I wish I was driving!
I wouldn't characterize the offered opinions as actually having tried something like this & knowing from experience that it "won't work".
I would characterize the responses presented as "Worth considering & responding to" in order to present the reasoning behind My absurd proposal & Why it might-could-should seem to defy conventional norms.
Advising me to just Throw My Engine Away seems just as un-reasonable as making a Bose Wave Radio out of an RX-7... Both are Possible... You be the Judge. Even in-valids have Opinions that might be correct.
I would characterize the responses presented as "Worth considering & responding to" in order to present the reasoning behind My absurd proposal & Why it might-could-should seem to defy conventional norms.
Advising me to just Throw My Engine Away seems just as un-reasonable as making a Bose Wave Radio out of an RX-7... Both are Possible... You be the Judge. Even in-valids have Opinions that might be correct.
07-17-16, 07:05 PM
#52
If I thought anyone might really take me seriously around here I would have also proposed a decrease in the over all Drag Co-Efficient of the FC due to the "Ultra Buckaroo-Banzai Over-Thruster Effect" from the Resonant Pulse Reflection out the Ram-Air Scoop... This Breaks the Air in front of the vehicle for decreased wind resistance.
This is the same as the underwater bulb of a large ship Breaking the Bow Wave for Less Drag & Significantly Improved Efficiency... or a Super-Cavitating Torpedo.
It would also be a Raging Tone of Rotary Terror to someone in front of the vehicle at WOT. It might seem to be a ridiculous idea, but perhaps it could work?
The Random Caps are for those that might be a "Little Slow" or confused about "Being Correct" & Why I don't Care! Almost everything we Think we know is correct only on Tuesday.
This is the same as the underwater bulb of a large ship Breaking the Bow Wave for Less Drag & Significantly Improved Efficiency... or a Super-Cavitating Torpedo.
It would also be a Raging Tone of Rotary Terror to someone in front of the vehicle at WOT. It might seem to be a ridiculous idea, but perhaps it could work?
The Random Caps are for those that might be a "Little Slow" or confused about "Being Correct" & Why I don't Care! Almost everything we Think we know is correct only on Tuesday.
07-17-16, 07:25 PM
#53
in a way your posts make sense, i often considered trying an expansion chamber on the exhaust much like 2 strokes use, since the rotary has no exhaust valves and resonant pulse waves affect these engines more than any other. same goes for the intake and their runners.
but the intake is cast aluminum and most of us do not have aluminum casting cases, full machine shop milling tools and furnaces readily available to experiment with different intake manifold designs, not to mention a dyno for accurate measurements, a gas station for unlimited fuel, and unlimited time and personal energy resources for such a task for a few measely horses.
so in the end, i guess you have to ask how much your time and effort is worth.
some of us have experimented with some of the above, but not to any lengthy extent, because the rewards are very minimal. there is no magic perfect number that will add 30+ horses by getting the intake 'just right', it requires much much more than just that, and also affects how the engine runs, drives and sounds.
all motor rotaries are a thing of the past, back when they could compete with big bulky gas guzzling carbed V8's in heavy gauge steel cars. now you have fiberglass bodied large displacement tuned fuel injected aluminum block V8s and V10s to compete with. the latter do it while making 20+ mpg and can't be heard from over a block away, compared to 10mpg and can be heard several miles away, while still trailing wayyy behind. so if you want to do an experiment, i hope you are doing it just for personal gratification.
even turbo rotaries lost footing years back, you just don't see a 2, 3 or 4 rotor cranking out 2,000+ horsepower like people are turning now with boingers. that said i just don't try very hard anymore, but you can if you like. in the end you quite simply need more displacement and will still be on the losing end of the stick.
but the intake is cast aluminum and most of us do not have aluminum casting cases, full machine shop milling tools and furnaces readily available to experiment with different intake manifold designs, not to mention a dyno for accurate measurements, a gas station for unlimited fuel, and unlimited time and personal energy resources for such a task for a few measely horses.
so in the end, i guess you have to ask how much your time and effort is worth.
some of us have experimented with some of the above, but not to any lengthy extent, because the rewards are very minimal. there is no magic perfect number that will add 30+ horses by getting the intake 'just right', it requires much much more than just that, and also affects how the engine runs, drives and sounds.
all motor rotaries are a thing of the past, back when they could compete with big bulky gas guzzling carbed V8's in heavy gauge steel cars. now you have fiberglass bodied large displacement tuned fuel injected aluminum block V8s and V10s to compete with. the latter do it while making 20+ mpg and can't be heard from over a block away, compared to 10mpg and can be heard several miles away, while still trailing wayyy behind. so if you want to do an experiment, i hope you are doing it just for personal gratification.
even turbo rotaries lost footing years back, you just don't see a 2, 3 or 4 rotor cranking out 2,000+ horsepower like people are turning now with boingers. that said i just don't try very hard anymore, but you can if you like. in the end you quite simply need more displacement and will still be on the losing end of the stick.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 07-17-16 at 07:41 PM.
07-17-16, 07:37 PM
#54
MECP Certified Installer
Having my sleeves gutted and porting the exhaust created a mad increase in power. The fact is, the S5 NA has massive intake port area relative to the exhaust in stock form. You must also take into account the RX7 probably has the longest intake runners compared to any other engine ever produced. Just look at it, the intake manifolds alone are the size of the engine they are connected to.
It was a compromise because it was a production street car, and it needs to be driveable under all conditions.
Let me put it this way. Let's say you are at a traffic light and it turns green...
At 750 rpm, the rotors are only moving at 250rpm. At 250 rpm the rotors aren't delivering hardly any usable torque to the eccentric shaft under "normal, everyday engine configurations". So what do you do? Mazda decided to place I giant snake intake manifold on the engine to increase intake port velocity so that you could take off from a stop. They staged it so that that giant snake could breathe a little better at mid rpm and staged it again so that it wouldn't suffocate and die at very high rpm. The system isn't perfect as it is designed to provide the most power ( and pass emissions ) at EVERY rpm, without breaking the bank (actually that seems like a pretty expensive approach now that I typed it).
You probably already know it, but I'll explain torque and horsepower in this post for just posterity.
Torque = Twisting power applied to an object.
Horsepower = Work actually done when torque is applied, over time.
Let's say I apply 100 ft. lb. of torque to a bolt and it doesn't move, I delivered 100 ft. lb. of torque but made no horsepower, no work was done.
Torque can be described as a body builder who runs at the same speed with no backpack but can run at the same speed with 50 lbs of load on his back.
Horsepower can be described as a sprinter who could WAY out run the body builder but would die with 50 lbs. on his back.
It's just an analogy, poke fun if you want.
More food for thought...
A class 8 truck (18 wheeler) only has roughly 300-400 horsepower, but they also have 2,400 ft. lb. of torque. Their top speed may only be 75 ish mph but they can drag 50,000lbs or more from a stop light.
07-17-16, 07:46 PM
#55
alot more than that, my 366 gasoline c6000 only has about 400 torque and 270ish horsepower but with a gross weight of 25,000 lbs it runs nearly the same as it does when at curb weight of 12,500. most of these rigs could haul several 100k lbs of weight, some do.
kinda scary to think of, that you can legally drive with a gross vehicle weight of 25,000lbs with a standard class c license... i had literally 25 engines and a shop full of equipment in it. heh
kinda scary to think of, that you can legally drive with a gross vehicle weight of 25,000lbs with a standard class c license... i had literally 25 engines and a shop full of equipment in it. heh
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 07-17-16 at 07:49 PM.
07-17-16, 07:50 PM
#56
MECP Certified Installer
alot more than that, my 366 gasoline c6000 only has about 400 torque and 270ish horsepower but with a gross weight of 25,000 lbs it runs nearly the same as it does when at curb weight of 12,500. most of these rigs could haul several 100k lbs of weight, some do.
kinda scary to think of, that you can legally drive with a gross vehicle weight of 25,000lbs with a standard class c license... i had literally 30 engines and a shop full of equipment in it. heh
kinda scary to think of, that you can legally drive with a gross vehicle weight of 25,000lbs with a standard class c license... i had literally 30 engines and a shop full of equipment in it. heh
But what I said it is still fact.
07-17-16, 08:14 PM
#58
The reason the S5 worked great & the NA 20B always comes up short is a simple engineering short-cut Mazda used. Namely, the Phasing of the Eccentric is Completely Wrong for a proper 3-rotor.
It's So Sad... It need not be that way, but it's possible to actually do it correctly. I've been on this Forum a long time like many others... It seems like the choices are a broken car or an empty wallet. Satisfaction seems fleeting at best.
I'd like to at least be entertaining or amusing if not educational for demonstrating "What Not to Do"...
Some would tell me that Rotary Engines come from Japan... or that it's impossible to just spin the engine itself opposite the e-shaft instead of a fly-wheel. Others may posit that heat is bad & must be thrown away... I would say Some are correct Today & Others just don't know any better.
I would say that the reason for the deflectors in the NA exhaust is to disrupt the Exhaust Pulse into non-equal volumes to induce a rotational velocity & take the damaging energy from the shock front & use it to increase exhaust velocity & mixing.
I think the pulse would destroy most Cats pretty quick without them in a stock setup. Think Ultra-Sonic Cavitation for a similar effect of the transition problem of the sonic boom in a Vortex Cannon. That Metallic Ping can't be good for the components or the ear.
It's So Sad... It need not be that way, but it's possible to actually do it correctly. I've been on this Forum a long time like many others... It seems like the choices are a broken car or an empty wallet. Satisfaction seems fleeting at best.
I'd like to at least be entertaining or amusing if not educational for demonstrating "What Not to Do"...
Some would tell me that Rotary Engines come from Japan... or that it's impossible to just spin the engine itself opposite the e-shaft instead of a fly-wheel. Others may posit that heat is bad & must be thrown away... I would say Some are correct Today & Others just don't know any better.
I would say that the reason for the deflectors in the NA exhaust is to disrupt the Exhaust Pulse into non-equal volumes to induce a rotational velocity & take the damaging energy from the shock front & use it to increase exhaust velocity & mixing.
I think the pulse would destroy most Cats pretty quick without them in a stock setup. Think Ultra-Sonic Cavitation for a similar effect of the transition problem of the sonic boom in a Vortex Cannon. That Metallic Ping can't be good for the components or the ear.
07-17-16, 08:21 PM
#59
I wish I was driving!
The reason the S5 worked great & the NA 20B always comes up short is a simple engineering short-cut Mazda used. Namely, the Phasing of the Eccentric is Completely Wrong for a proper 3-rotor.
It's So Sad... It need not be that way, but it's possible to actually do it correctly. I've been on this Forum a long time like many others... It seems like the choices are a broken car or an empty wallet. Satisfaction seems fleeting at best.
I'd like to at least be entertaining or amusing if not educational for demonstrating "What Not to Do"...
Some would tell me that Rotary Engines come from Japan... or that it's impossible to just spin the engine itself opposite the e-shaft instead of a fly-wheel. Others may posit that heat is bad & must be thrown away... I would say Some are correct Today & Others just don't know any better.
I would say that the reason for the deflectors in the NA exhaust is to disrupt the Exhaust Pulse into non-equal volumes to induce a rotational velocity & take the damaging energy from the shock front & use it to increase exhaust velocity & mixing.
I think the pulse would destroy most Cats pretty quick without them in a stock setup. Think Ultra-Sonic Cavitation for a similar effect of the transition problem of the sonic boom in a Vortex Cannon. That Metallic Ping can't be good for the components or the ear.
It's So Sad... It need not be that way, but it's possible to actually do it correctly. I've been on this Forum a long time like many others... It seems like the choices are a broken car or an empty wallet. Satisfaction seems fleeting at best.
I'd like to at least be entertaining or amusing if not educational for demonstrating "What Not to Do"...
Some would tell me that Rotary Engines come from Japan... or that it's impossible to just spin the engine itself opposite the e-shaft instead of a fly-wheel. Others may posit that heat is bad & must be thrown away... I would say Some are correct Today & Others just don't know any better.
I would say that the reason for the deflectors in the NA exhaust is to disrupt the Exhaust Pulse into non-equal volumes to induce a rotational velocity & take the damaging energy from the shock front & use it to increase exhaust velocity & mixing.
I think the pulse would destroy most Cats pretty quick without them in a stock setup. Think Ultra-Sonic Cavitation for a similar effect of the transition problem of the sonic boom in a Vortex Cannon. That Metallic Ping can't be good for the components or the ear.
How many N/A 20B's did mazda put into production?
07-17-16, 08:52 PM
#61
Gibberish? I've been accused of using heiroglyphs & Egyptian Execration Rituals - & Rightly So!
But I'm Really a Babel-on-ion!
Mazda made very few 20B's. The 26G? 4-rotor was better suited to the common Eccentric Phasing & Timing Systems already in existence - The 3 rotor was a red-headed step child that never really got any Love. What about the 4-rotor corvette? How about the dual-stage rotary diesel outboard motor?
I remember riding in my Dad's RX-3 wagon when it was new back in the 70's. He even had the Transparent Rotary Engine Model that moved... He bought an '88 base model new as well & I kept that thing running till about 2 years ago when the franken-motor dropped a rotor seal...
I stripped the rotting thing of trick & useful parts & found a '88 GTU un-molested & in good shape sans a fuel pump & some relays for $1500 & sent the old Hulk off to RX-7 Heaven.
Other than a turbo hood that someone put on it - The GTU was remarkably unmolested by Deviants. The Mud-flaps are still on it, as well as all the under-trays but it needs a trip to the body shop for paint.
What to do with the GTU is a Good Question... perhaps I've been asking it wrong... I'm sorry for any confusion.
But I'm Really a Babel-on-ion!
Mazda made very few 20B's. The 26G? 4-rotor was better suited to the common Eccentric Phasing & Timing Systems already in existence - The 3 rotor was a red-headed step child that never really got any Love. What about the 4-rotor corvette? How about the dual-stage rotary diesel outboard motor?
I remember riding in my Dad's RX-3 wagon when it was new back in the 70's. He even had the Transparent Rotary Engine Model that moved... He bought an '88 base model new as well & I kept that thing running till about 2 years ago when the franken-motor dropped a rotor seal...
I stripped the rotting thing of trick & useful parts & found a '88 GTU un-molested & in good shape sans a fuel pump & some relays for $1500 & sent the old Hulk off to RX-7 Heaven.
Other than a turbo hood that someone put on it - The GTU was remarkably unmolested by Deviants. The Mud-flaps are still on it, as well as all the under-trays but it needs a trip to the body shop for paint.
What to do with the GTU is a Good Question... perhaps I've been asking it wrong... I'm sorry for any confusion.
07-17-16, 09:38 PM
#62
I would say that the reason for the deflectors in the NA exhaust is to disrupt the Exhaust Pulse into non-equal volumes to induce a rotational velocity & take the damaging energy from the shock front & use it to increase exhaust velocity & mixing.
I think the pulse would destroy most Cats pretty quick without them in a stock setup. Think Ultra-Sonic Cavitation for a similar effect of the transition problem of the sonic boom in a Vortex Cannon. That Metallic Ping can't be good for the components or the ear.
I think the pulse would destroy most Cats pretty quick without them in a stock setup. Think Ultra-Sonic Cavitation for a similar effect of the transition problem of the sonic boom in a Vortex Cannon. That Metallic Ping can't be good for the components or the ear.
when you remove the wings, the raspy old bumblebee sound from the pre 1986's comes back out of the car. mazda quite simply wanted to quiet down the car to a tasteful level, however this also robbed the engine of about 15% overall peak power. the numbers have been proven, but i always warn customers that the engine will be noticably louder and more angry. but for the best bang for your buck, if you have the engine apart, the mod is virtually free if you want to grind them out, or at worst the cost of turbo sleeves and some roll pins. 15-30hp for $0-$100 aint bad.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 07-17-16 at 09:42 PM.
07-17-16, 09:53 PM
#63
I wish I was driving!
07-17-16, 09:54 PM
#64
Sorry, too ******* easy and obvious.
The answer really is, "Drive your GTU like the older, slightly flabby GT car Mazda actually intended." The FC NA excels at affordable cruising ("affordable" as long as one ignores fuel cost that is), normal maintenance is not onerous and it's big enough to be useful in everyday life.
07-17-16, 10:28 PM
#67
I already solved the 42 thing... If you insist on knowing the result I'll tell you, but it's not Directly Related to the topic.
What to do with the GTU would seem to be an R-Tek and extra sensors to actually be able to tune the thing properly without concerns for Cats or emissions. Possibly larger injectors. I have an s5/s4 VDI manifold ready to go Now... The air control system is custom made already & in a box.
I can easily get all that done first for a good tuned baseline & then remove a cover plate from the Modded VDI & see what happens with the Ram-Air.
If it sucks then I'll put the cover plate back on & put my perfect Aluminum NA Hood on & sell the ultra-heavy steel turbo hood for beer $'s.
Other-wise the AC & power steering are completely dead weight & useless for me & I practiced de-powering the rack on my old car before I sent it to the junk yard.
Maybe a lightweight battery in the rear bin & my Trick double-pulley S6 alternator? Updated Rims & Tires with a body kit & a trip to the body shop for paint? Upgrade the suspension with progressive springs & adjustable shocks. Brakes & Rotors Upgrade?
Normal type of stuff...
How's that?
What to do with the GTU would seem to be an R-Tek and extra sensors to actually be able to tune the thing properly without concerns for Cats or emissions. Possibly larger injectors. I have an s5/s4 VDI manifold ready to go Now... The air control system is custom made already & in a box.
I can easily get all that done first for a good tuned baseline & then remove a cover plate from the Modded VDI & see what happens with the Ram-Air.
If it sucks then I'll put the cover plate back on & put my perfect Aluminum NA Hood on & sell the ultra-heavy steel turbo hood for beer $'s.
Other-wise the AC & power steering are completely dead weight & useless for me & I practiced de-powering the rack on my old car before I sent it to the junk yard.
Maybe a lightweight battery in the rear bin & my Trick double-pulley S6 alternator? Updated Rims & Tires with a body kit & a trip to the body shop for paint? Upgrade the suspension with progressive springs & adjustable shocks. Brakes & Rotors Upgrade?
Normal type of stuff...
How's that?
07-17-16, 11:03 PM
#69
Seeing as I bought it from SilverRotor here on the Forum more than a decade ago - an S6 single wire alternator with a double pulley would be an improvement for the time to just install it or just wait for the current one that still functions to die...
So Fetching It IS!
So is my rebuilt wiper switch & my non-broken driver's door handle... How can anyone be on this forum for any amount of time without pile of bones? I just have to remember what hole to Fetch them from.
I think I might have left the alternator with the printouts for a Granny's 26B Adaptor Plate?
So Fetching It IS!
So is my rebuilt wiper switch & my non-broken driver's door handle... How can anyone be on this forum for any amount of time without pile of bones? I just have to remember what hole to Fetch them from.
I think I might have left the alternator with the printouts for a Granny's 26B Adaptor Plate?
07-17-16, 11:21 PM
#70
As far as the VDI Ram-Air Mod - It might be possible to avoid some of the problems by using a Passive or Powered Radiator type of Diaphram that pulses & bounces the dynamic wave back into the runners. A Flutter Bomb using a PU-38 Space Modulator would amplify the Primary & Secondary Harmonics with an electronically controlled feed-back amplifier.
A secondary use as a forward facing noise-canceling device is also available. The same systems can be used for exhaust noise cancellation as well as power-scavenging. I can do the same thing with a tower computer fan & the little speaker that just goes beep. It's really Ancient Tech developed to Predict Earthquakes using Sheep's Bladders.
A secondary use as a forward facing noise-canceling device is also available. The same systems can be used for exhaust noise cancellation as well as power-scavenging. I can do the same thing with a tower computer fan & the little speaker that just goes beep. It's really Ancient Tech developed to Predict Earthquakes using Sheep's Bladders.
07-18-16, 12:08 AM
#72
As described, oh yeah, he's bypassing the AFM...a point I wondered about as well.
We later learned that clicking our heels three times and thinking outside the box might potentially overcome so-called "normal" impossibilities and lead to minor power gains due to....aaahhhmmmm, science.
If you still don't grasp the concept/explanation, perhaps the Underpants Gnomes can help.
We later learned that clicking our heels three times and thinking outside the box might potentially overcome so-called "normal" impossibilities and lead to minor power gains due to....aaahhhmmmm, science.
If you still don't grasp the concept/explanation, perhaps the Underpants Gnomes can help.
07-18-16, 12:14 AM
#73
you need to research more about how the FC fuel injection system works,
and how it uses the AFM as the primary load sensing device....
opening some large port after the AFM , would drasticly lower the load sensed, and throw fuel and timing tables way off.... at that point the rtek you would not be able to tune out something like that....
and how it uses the AFM as the primary load sensing device....
opening some large port after the AFM , would drasticly lower the load sensed, and throw fuel and timing tables way off.... at that point the rtek you would not be able to tune out something like that....
07-18-16, 12:51 AM
#74
Until Chuck Yeager proved otherwise, it was thought impossible to break Mach 1.
Until the Sub Ethereal Flow Shaped Ram Pulse Variable Dimension intake manifold is actually built and tested, isn't it really just too easy to naysay and ridicule?
Feeling sheepish, you might admit, "Yeah" but then, feeling lucid, you might say, "Hey, wait a minute...isn't this just like having the worlds biggest vacuum leak?" and yup, you almost have it.
The leap of faith is to grasp that because the giant leak is intentional, is something you plan on and desire...whelp, that makes it OK and it should be fine.
When you install your manifolds with half inch gaps, the engine realizes you are an idiot and should not be rewarded with better performance. Do basically the same thing but this time slap a throttle plate on it and bam!, the engine knows you're serious and submits to your will.
It's more a matter of will than science, much like cat herding.
Until the Sub Ethereal Flow Shaped Ram Pulse Variable Dimension intake manifold is actually built and tested, isn't it really just too easy to naysay and ridicule?
Feeling sheepish, you might admit, "Yeah" but then, feeling lucid, you might say, "Hey, wait a minute...isn't this just like having the worlds biggest vacuum leak?" and yup, you almost have it.
The leap of faith is to grasp that because the giant leak is intentional, is something you plan on and desire...whelp, that makes it OK and it should be fine.
When you install your manifolds with half inch gaps, the engine realizes you are an idiot and should not be rewarded with better performance. Do basically the same thing but this time slap a throttle plate on it and bam!, the engine knows you're serious and submits to your will.
It's more a matter of will than science, much like cat herding.
07-18-16, 02:18 AM
#75
Information Regurgitator
