firestarter810

Seems to me that any strut tower bar would work just as well as the next. If I understand the theory correctly, they just tie the strut towers together, keeping your car in a rectangular shape, rather than flexing into a parrallelogram. With that in mind, welding a bar connecting the two strut towers should work just as well, correct?

The only difference in this would be the mazdatrix front bar, which places a triangulated bar connecting the strut towers to the firewall, as well as each other.

Does the Mazdatrix bar work better? are all strut tower bars created equal?

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

I would strongly suggest not welding one on, since it kind of inhibits you doing any work on it.

firestarter810

I don't intend to weld one on. Just wondering if I got the theory right, in that a welded bar would do the same thing.

Now, any answers to my questions?

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Yeah, it would do the same thing. All the other bars are pretty much equal, the firewall bars are obviously a hair better, as they don't allow the strut towers to travel in any direction, but as I mentioned in the other thread, if this is a street or auto-x car, strut bars really don't do you any good (in auto-x they put you out of class which is REALLY tough to deal with), if you hit track events you'll have good luck with just a bar.

firestarter810

It is just a street car. I put bars on my neon before, and it really made it feel better. I'm looking for the same kinda feel out of my FC.

Will Sonnett

I have one and cant tell the difference between before and after. Maybe they are not worth the trouble if you are not on a track.

firestarter810

well, I know they're not anything like each other, but the Neon is regarded as a nice handling car, hence its popularity as a club racer. Before the tower bars it felt good. After the tower bars, it felt a lot better to me. Felt like the car held a better line and I could power out of the corners better.

I'm hoping for the same effect out of my 7. If I can get less chassis flex out of it, especially for the price of a set of bars, how could that be a bad thing.

And pls don't jump on me... this is just the first of a series of suspension upgrades I want to do... I just don't have money for all the toys yet.

staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

I think adding a bar would do more if other suspension mods are taken care of at the same time, like sway bars, bushings, lower arm bar etc. What other mods have you done to the suspension system?

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

I'm going to agree with staticguitar313. If your shocks/springs are in good shape, your bushings probably are wore out. A set of urethane bushings would go a lot further towards the connected feeling that youw ant with the car, than the shock bars.. Even if you tighten your chassiss, it's still suspended on the bushings. A set of complete urethane bushings can be had for less than $130, if memory serves.

firestarter810

Haven't done anything. I want to do bushings, sway bars, springs and shocks.

firestarter810

^^^ good point about the chassis connected to the bushings...

So after those, what should my next step be?

staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

Bushings,Struts,Springs,Tower Bars, Sway Bars. Also since these cars are so old, i recommend replacing the motor, transmission, and differential mounts as well. The more solid and stable you make the car, the more power your going to get to the ground, instead of losing it to the twisting of the drivetrain etc.
- Jared

firestarter810

Makes sense... thanks

jgrewe

iTrader: (1)

Just an add-on here. I had a friend that had one of the ACR neons when they first came out---- long time ago. Racing in showroom stock he had an off-track episode, sort of fast, hits some bumps in the grass at Mid Ohio. He didn't run into anything and said it didn't feel as bad as some 'offs' he had in his old ITC Fiesta. Well the car had to go to the frame shop! At the frame shop we were told that the Neon chassis' were what we call flexi-flyers. They could use all the help they could get for stiffness because they were 'all engine' for performance.
I don't know how the later ones are, probably better. But that may be why a strut bar had such an impact on the feel of the car.

firestarter810

So what are the chassis characteristics of our FC's? I know that the rear bushings change toe according to the "anger" in which the car is tossed about. When I first started driving it, I hated them. I still don't care for them, and plan to swap them out, but I am getting used to them and predicting when they will come into play as I enter a hot corner.

So rather than me spending the next couple of months getting driving impressions... what are the strong and weak points of our chassis and suspension? what do I have to address and how do I go about it?

Gene

iTrader: (1)

Besides being a bitch to work on things if you weld a bar, you also run the risk of having pre-load on it, either in tension or compression, with no way to fix it.

I'd recommend doing the strut bar before or at the same time as struts, springs, bushings etc. For one it's cheap. The other issue is that if you stiffen everything up and don't do the bar, chassis flex will be even worse.

Weak points? No way to adjust rear camber easily. The AWR mini-link adjusters work well but they're spendy at $175. They give more range of adjustment than the subframe link bar. They also allow you to adjust left and right independently, which is very useful on cars of our age, since things are often tweaked a little.

Yes, the rear steer thingies suck and should be removed if you're planning on spending much at or especially slightly beyond the limit.

jgrewe

iTrader: (1)

In general these chassis are pretty stiff compared to many cars. They are built for performance after all. I don't know the torsional rigidity numbers for a stock shell but they are better than a Neon. A strut bar will help, how much? who knows. On the street with a high mile shell it might be noticable. Or if your roads are bumpy etc. IMO at normal driving speeds that you (should) see on the street you probably won't know its there, but they sure look cool when you open the hood
Gene brought up some nice parts, but be careful how far you go on the suspension on a daily driver. I don't know how many times I've given in to temptation and put too many racey parts on a car until its no fun on the street. You know, when you're afraid to hit those little reflectors between lanes because if they used to much glue to stick it down you lose a tooth filling! I have a 323 GTX that I went to far with and the car is rusting in some strange places because of the flexing the chassis had to do going up driveways etc. I had the full RoadRace rally suspension on it, drove like an ox cart over bumps.
Just start with the basics mentioned above and you'll have a blast in the car.

firestarter810

lol

The Neon was lowered w/ springs and shocks, bigger sway bars and the aformentioned tower bars. All of this was done in one night when the gf was 7 1/2 mos pregnant. First time she got/fell into it, she swore at me for 20 minutes. Then driving in it, she swore at me some more. So I know what it is to destroy the streetability of a car.

I suppose its all about what you're willing to live with as far as compromise. I've heard that just the bushing set will jar your teeth, but I find that hard to believe.

I just think the first step to becoming a better driver, rather than increasing the power under the hood, is to improve your connection with the road.

jgrewe

iTrader: (1)

You are on the right track, power should be your last thing to worry about. The best response I've heard to the question "How do I make my car faster?" is "Go to a driving school!". The 'nut' that holds the (steering) wheel is the most important piece of the car

staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

These cars quite rigid, unless you have my car, that has a targa roof chopped into it, its not rigid anymore. It sucks *****. I should T-Top it.

Juiceh

iTrader: (4)

I have a convertable, I added a strut tower bar, the full racing beat convertable suspension package(sway bars and springs 1/2 inch lower) and tokiko 5 way adjustable shocks + new 18" rims and tires. WOW its an incredible difference. But hey thats cause its a Vert, its more flimsy to begin with! If you get lowered springs, sway bars, and a strut bar you will probably notice some added stiffness. Won't be as obvious as in a vert though.

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

That's actually not true. An Rx-7 vert is at least as stiff as a coupe, and many people argue that it's stiffer. It's all due to the subframe design and reinforcement that Mazda put into the verts. It's not a hacked-on aftermarket design like a lot of cars *cough*mustang*cough* that added a lot of chassis flex and body roll, this was a well thought out adaptation of an already stiff chassis.

I've heard of modders for Rx-7 racing and in japan and such bolt vert subframes up to the coupe models, for extra stiffness. Of course, it adds a lot of weight to do that, but a lot of people think it's worth it. For the average driver, the weight offsets any gain from handling.

Juiceh

iTrader: (4)

Hmm, well if thats the case then anyone who does what I did to their non vert will notice a big improvement.

Oh and firestarter810 I was debating on the mazdatrix firewall\strut bar and the racing beat strut bar. I went with the racind beat bar, because it was cheaper, looked way cooler and that I probably wouldn't notice a difference if I had the firewall brace bar.

fcdrifter13

ok heres what i know about strut bars and what i say will make sense. Ok a non triangulated strut bar is basically pointslees. I mean think about it you have one wobbly strut tower you are trying to make no wobble. Well ill just tie it to another wobbly struttower thatll work right. NO it has to be triangulated to make the strut towers stiffer and more ridgid. Makes sense right. Its just common sense.

firestarter810

I honestly could not care what the bar looks like, as long as it works. I never intended to weld the bar in, because like everyone says, there would be no adjustability. But if that WOULD work, I prolly wouldn't be here typing, I'd be welding on my car.

I figure that the triangulated bar would work better, but is that added performance worth the difference in price? Does anyone have a triangulated bar and there buddy does not? so you could make a side by side difference?

fcdrifter13, what you say does make sense, to a point. The fact is, by tying the two strut towers together, they can no longer wobble in opposite directions, you are forcing them to wobble in concert. It is not the end-all be-all to chassis strengthening, merely a step
in the right direction.