Premix!!! Read this please!
11-06-09, 02:43 AM
#1
Smells like 2 stroke.
Thread Starter
Premix!!! Read this please!
I know people are going to hound me for opening a thread about Premix because there are plenty in the archive, but everything I read about premixing seems to be wrong. I'm talking about the ratio and the mixture; specifically in the case of my S4 N/A which will have no OMP when I'm done with my rebuild. I want to run a fairly rich mix of two stroke oil in my gas, mostly because I'm very hard on the car (hence the rebuild, lol).
Firstly, I think a proper mix for me would be around 100:1... But I'm not exactly sure if that is the proper ratio to run. Second, what is with everyone saying "100:1 is 1 ounce per gallon”? This makes no sense considering there are 128 ounces in a gallon, not 100. So in that case I should be running 1.28 ounces per gallon instead of 1 ounce per gallon. This brings me to the next problem: all the threads on here I have read say "Just throw in a 16 ounce bottle of 2 stroke oil and you should be fine." Well that would be just dandy if there were 100 ounces in a gallon, and if my car had a 16 gallon tank
. But this is simply not the case. The tank has a 16.6 gallon capacity. So I did a little math and came up with 21.248 ounces. Holy crap! That’s completely different from 16 ounces! So, am I right? Should I throw in 21 ounces of 2 stroke oil in my tank? Or am I just crazy? 
PS: WTF is TCW3 and is it better or worse than regular 2 stroke oil?
Firstly, I think a proper mix for me would be around 100:1... But I'm not exactly sure if that is the proper ratio to run. Second, what is with everyone saying "100:1 is 1 ounce per gallon”? This makes no sense considering there are 128 ounces in a gallon, not 100. So in that case I should be running 1.28 ounces per gallon instead of 1 ounce per gallon. This brings me to the next problem: all the threads on here I have read say "Just throw in a 16 ounce bottle of 2 stroke oil and you should be fine." Well that would be just dandy if there were 100 ounces in a gallon, and if my car had a 16 gallon tank
. But this is simply not the case. The tank has a 16.6 gallon capacity. So I did a little math and came up with 21.248 ounces. Holy crap! That’s completely different from 16 ounces! So, am I right? Should I throw in 21 ounces of 2 stroke oil in my tank? Or am I just crazy? PS: WTF is TCW3 and is it better or worse than regular 2 stroke oil?
11-06-09, 06:21 AM
#2
Although I don't premix, from what I gather, the ratio for a street car would be in the 100/150:1 version, race engines 50/75:1, so the 1 oz to a gallon would be in the middle. TC-W3 is a certification for 2 stroke oil that meets certain crteria, so only use oil that is TC-W3 certified.
11-06-09, 07:46 AM
#3
I think you're making a few dubious assumptions.
No matter the stated fuel tank capacity, you'll never actually get that much in.
You should base your figures on the amount of fuel you really carry, not on what the manual says you can.
Second, you don't add more oil based on how hard you think you run the engine.
Beyond a certain point, more oil in the gas is actually hurting you...you get more unburned deposits which leads to reduced combustion efficiency and even preignition.
Turbonut...it's a complete mistake to base anything on "what racers do".
Race engines are torn down constantly and the effects of such things as premix ratio can be evaluated and adjusted on an almost daily basis.
When I was GP racing we wanted as little oil in the gas as possible...oil doesn't explode as well as gas and more oil meant less power. We were willing to accept the consequences of cutting it too fine- trashed cylinders, pistons, etc.- in the quest for more horsepower.
One of the racing world's giants- Ferdinand Porsche, Enzo Ferrari, I can't remember- said (I paraphrase), "The perfect race car is the fastest thing on the track and then explodes after crossing the finish line".
A real world example of this philosophy is the early Ducati World Superbike team.
They didn't have the horsepower of the Japanese four cylinders but they did have a rules regulated weight advantage.
They exploited this by recasting their engine casings out of magnesium which saved a few precious ounces but the new cases only has a service life of a few hundred miles before warping and blowing the cylinders off.
This was fine for them though...if it lasted for the weekend, the part had done it's job exactly as planned and would be replaced. Usually- but not always- it did.
So, you can see that following the practice of "racers" can be a very expensive and dangerous path to follow.
No matter the stated fuel tank capacity, you'll never actually get that much in.
You should base your figures on the amount of fuel you really carry, not on what the manual says you can.
Second, you don't add more oil based on how hard you think you run the engine.
Beyond a certain point, more oil in the gas is actually hurting you...you get more unburned deposits which leads to reduced combustion efficiency and even preignition.
Turbonut...it's a complete mistake to base anything on "what racers do".
Race engines are torn down constantly and the effects of such things as premix ratio can be evaluated and adjusted on an almost daily basis.
When I was GP racing we wanted as little oil in the gas as possible...oil doesn't explode as well as gas and more oil meant less power. We were willing to accept the consequences of cutting it too fine- trashed cylinders, pistons, etc.- in the quest for more horsepower.
One of the racing world's giants- Ferdinand Porsche, Enzo Ferrari, I can't remember- said (I paraphrase), "The perfect race car is the fastest thing on the track and then explodes after crossing the finish line".
A real world example of this philosophy is the early Ducati World Superbike team.
They didn't have the horsepower of the Japanese four cylinders but they did have a rules regulated weight advantage.
They exploited this by recasting their engine casings out of magnesium which saved a few precious ounces but the new cases only has a service life of a few hundred miles before warping and blowing the cylinders off.
This was fine for them though...if it lasted for the weekend, the part had done it's job exactly as planned and would be replaced. Usually- but not always- it did.
So, you can see that following the practice of "racers" can be a very expensive and dangerous path to follow.
11-06-09, 09:55 AM
#5
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I think some guys take this a bit far, Ive seen guys fill up a 1 gallon can, mix, shake, then dump it in becuse they are worried it will not mix right in the tank.
On the omp an abused 7 will use up to 1-1/2 qt of oil per 2 tanks of gas ~500miles. At least thats what Ive seen. Its its also about what the manual says.
Now consider the above when your doing premix. 1 oz per gallon is pretty heavy on the oil side and right where it gets a bit overkill. To make things easy in my head I pour in about 8 oz then fill up er up. Thats generally at 1/8th tank for me. Its less than 1oz/gal and way more than what the factory gave it.
On the omp an abused 7 will use up to 1-1/2 qt of oil per 2 tanks of gas ~500miles. At least thats what Ive seen. Its its also about what the manual says.
Now consider the above when your doing premix. 1 oz per gallon is pretty heavy on the oil side and right where it gets a bit overkill. To make things easy in my head I pour in about 8 oz then fill up er up. Thats generally at 1/8th tank for me. Its less than 1oz/gal and way more than what the factory gave it.
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rx7junkie170 (06-09-19)
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11-06-09, 11:02 AM
#8
I think you're making a few dubious assumptions.
No matter the stated fuel tank capacity, you'll never actually get that much in.
You should base your figures on the amount of fuel you really carry, not on what the manual says you can.
Second, you don't add more oil based on how hard you think you run the engine.
Beyond a certain point, more oil in the gas is actually hurting you...you get more unburned deposits which leads to reduced combustion efficiency and even preignition.
Turbonut...it's a complete mistake to base anything on "what racers do".
Race engines are torn down constantly and the effects of such things as premix ratio can be evaluated and adjusted on an almost daily basis.
When I was GP racing we wanted as little oil in the gas as possible...oil doesn't explode as well as gas and more oil meant less power. We were willing to accept the consequences of cutting it too fine- trashed cylinders, pistons, etc.- in the quest for more horsepower.
One of the racing world's giants- Ferdinand Porsche, Enzo Ferrari, I can't remember- said (I paraphrase), "The perfect race car is the fastest thing on the track and then explodes after crossing the finish line".
A real world example of this philosophy is the early Ducati World Superbike team.
They didn't have the horsepower of the Japanese four cylinders but they did have a rules regulated weight advantage.
They exploited this by recasting their engine casings out of magnesium which saved a few precious ounces but the new cases only has a service life of a few hundred miles before warping and blowing the cylinders off.
This was fine for them though...if it lasted for the weekend, the part had done it's job exactly as planned and would be replaced. Usually- but not always- it did.
So, you can see that following the practice of "racers" can be a very expensive and dangerous path to follow.
No matter the stated fuel tank capacity, you'll never actually get that much in.
You should base your figures on the amount of fuel you really carry, not on what the manual says you can.
Second, you don't add more oil based on how hard you think you run the engine.
Beyond a certain point, more oil in the gas is actually hurting you...you get more unburned deposits which leads to reduced combustion efficiency and even preignition.
Turbonut...it's a complete mistake to base anything on "what racers do".
Race engines are torn down constantly and the effects of such things as premix ratio can be evaluated and adjusted on an almost daily basis.
When I was GP racing we wanted as little oil in the gas as possible...oil doesn't explode as well as gas and more oil meant less power. We were willing to accept the consequences of cutting it too fine- trashed cylinders, pistons, etc.- in the quest for more horsepower.
One of the racing world's giants- Ferdinand Porsche, Enzo Ferrari, I can't remember- said (I paraphrase), "The perfect race car is the fastest thing on the track and then explodes after crossing the finish line".
A real world example of this philosophy is the early Ducati World Superbike team.
They didn't have the horsepower of the Japanese four cylinders but they did have a rules regulated weight advantage.
They exploited this by recasting their engine casings out of magnesium which saved a few precious ounces but the new cases only has a service life of a few hundred miles before warping and blowing the cylinders off.
This was fine for them though...if it lasted for the weekend, the part had done it's job exactly as planned and would be replaced. Usually- but not always- it did.
So, you can see that following the practice of "racers" can be a very expensive and dangerous path to follow.
http://fc3spro.com/TECH/FAQ/premix.html
11-06-09, 11:09 AM
#9
kill it with BOOMSTICK!
well, I run 1/2 quart of 2 stroke per every 3/4 of a tank (roughly 12.5 gallons), and the engine I took apart from a blown coolant seal was absolutely mint: no scoring on the rotor housings, no real carbon buildup on the rotor faces, and after 40,000 miles on that engine, I had to get the ten thousandths micrometer out to measure apex seal wear, which was only .0002 less than what they measured new.
Therefore, I feel that this is an absolutely acceptable ratio of premix.
Therefore, I feel that this is an absolutely acceptable ratio of premix.
11-06-09, 11:24 AM
#11
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I used an ounce of tcw-3 per gallon and I'll be cracking it open today so I can post pics later if you like. I'm pretty sure the internals are gonna be pretty good.
11-06-09, 11:46 AM
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This has been covered before. Run too much pre-mix and you lower your octane which is dangerous to do especially on turbo charged cars. The 100:1 ratio is for two-cycle engines. Rotaries are Otto cycle (or four-stroke) engines. They do not need pre-mix in the way that two-stroke engines need it. The premix is intended to do the same thing as the film left by the piston-ring in a piston engine.
11-06-09, 12:19 PM
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This has been covered before. Run too much pre-mix and you lower your octane which is dangerous to do especially on turbo charged cars. The 100:1 ratio is for two-cycle engines. Rotaries are Otto cycle (or four-stroke) engines. They do not need pre-mix in the way that two-stroke engines need it. The premix is intended to do the same thing as the film left by the piston-ring in a piston engine.
11-06-09, 12:20 PM
#14
I used Idemitsu premix and they said half ounce to a gallon which is 256:1 ratio.
I run between half to a full ounce to a gallon since I dont really care for exact measurement on premixing. As long as its not overly too much to cause a smoke screen or too little, which wont happen since I make sure its a half or more.
your best bet is just to run 256:1 ratio which I run on both my n/a and turbo.
I run between half to a full ounce to a gallon since I dont really care for exact measurement on premixing. As long as its not overly too much to cause a smoke screen or too little, which wont happen since I make sure its a half or more.
your best bet is just to run 256:1 ratio which I run on both my n/a and turbo.
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rx7junkie170 (06-09-19)
is settled, your next question will be:
11-06-09, 02:37 PM
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Just trying to help out, but as I see it, these people certainly know more than most of us, so you can refute their stated ratios.
http://fc3spro.com/TECH/FAQ/premix.html
http://fc3spro.com/TECH/FAQ/premix.html
"A proper removal of the internal OMP gear would require removal of the front oil cover, but this is too involved for most people. I've heard a pair of U.S. dimes can be inserted into the hole to keep the OMP gear from sliding around inside the front cover before covering everything up with a block-off plate; if this didn't make any sense to you now, it'll be obvious when you take everything apart."
what does this mean exactly? is not removing the omp gear going to hurt anything? i was literally just about to go outside and finally remove the omp system and run premix when i ran across this.
11-06-09, 07:56 PM
#22
This has been covered before. Run too much pre-mix and you lower your octane which is dangerous to do especially on turbo charged cars. The 100:1 ratio is for two-cycle engines. Rotaries are Otto cycle (or four-stroke) engines. They do not need pre-mix in the way that two-stroke engines need it. The premix is intended to do the same thing as the film left by the piston-ring in a piston engine.
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Frnchplayr15 (10-04-19)
11-06-09, 10:14 PM
#25
FYI, I e-mail Mazdatrix about the Idemitsu premix. They replied, if you have a working OMP, 1/2 oz per gal is fine. If you have no OMP, you should increase your oil to 1 oz per gallon.
I had this questions before regarding 100:1 or 128:1.
The answer that I discovered? Use 1 oz per gallon, you'll be fine.
If you do have a working OMP, 3 - 5 oz per tank is the generally accepted ratio.
I had this questions before regarding 100:1 or 128:1.
The answer that I discovered? Use 1 oz per gallon, you'll be fine.
If you do have a working OMP, 3 - 5 oz per tank is the generally accepted ratio.