Porting the coolant passages
07-01-06, 03:43 AM
#26
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Originally Posted by tinvestor
I think there is some confusion about what this is being called.
07-01-06, 11:43 AM
#27
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Originally Posted by Kyrasis6
Ah ok, didn't know that is what was meant by porting, but the example you gave is the same as the river example, just didn't explain that part of it.
I didnt even see your posts
I didnt notice the second page. After reading your posts it occured to me I did not need to post at all, your explanation was perfect so, sorry all for the long post re explaining what Kyrasis already covered.
07-01-06, 01:45 PM
#28
Originally Posted by Kyrasis6
This grinding ribs is a stupid thing to do, for one it will cause cavitation above a certain rpm, this not only increases pumping looses to hp but can also cause little bubbles to form on the passageways that eat away at the metal.
A local speed shop here also advertised that the ribs help increase regidity which is true but they also greatly increase stress making them much more likely to crack, both from an engineering standpoint.
A local speed shop here also advertised that the ribs help increase regidity which is true but they also greatly increase stress making them much more likely to crack, both from an engineering standpoint.
07-01-06, 03:08 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by Gene
Ribs would only increase rigidity if you added them somehow. If you're removing material, you're reducing rigidity, always.
07-01-06, 05:07 PM
#30
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I don't know about the ribs increasing rigidity. They offer up more area to give up heat and also, I think more importantly, create turbulance. Cooling is not just an effect of the sink due to volumn or temp difference but to how much cool coolant can rub against the hot metal. In cooling passages, turbulance (not cavitation) is good.
07-01-06, 05:23 PM
#31
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I also suffer from typing before thinking. Think of it this way: What cooling does the cold coolant running down the center of a pipe give you? Only the coolant able to reach the outside of the passage transfers heat! Turbulate to maximize the amount of coolant touching the sides of the pipe (coolant passage).
07-01-06, 06:52 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by Gene
Ribs would only increase rigidity if you added them somehow. If you're removing material, you're reducing rigidity, always.
I would never induce turbulance into a cooling system to better distribute the heat through the coolant. Given how inefficient that is the gains a pointless after you consider lack of flow due to cavitation, possable fatigue to the surrounding metal, higher chance of cracks, and more load put on the engine by the water pump. Yes the coolant towards the center is going to be cooler then the coolant flowing around the edge but coolant around the edge is still tranfering heat to the center and absorbing additional heat along the way. This kind of goes along with intake ports as well, make it too big and it only works good at high velocities, make it too small and there isn't enough volume for it to work effectively, add multiple passageways and you are transfering heat through a smaller cross section and although each passageway flows less the concentration of several in an area can flow the same or more.
Regarless of the effieciency of the cooling you never want sharp edges or obrupt shapes in something that is as highly stressed as an engine block, you are asking for a crack that can cause catastauphic failure. Given the POTENTIAL problems I would rather upgrade my radiator or make some ducting going into it, if your worried about the plugs getting too hot and causing detonation, get colder plugs, that is what they are made for.
07-03-06, 02:36 PM
#33
Wow, what engineering school did that come from? If that is the case, explain I beams in sky scrapers and I or H beam connecting rods? Why then are hollow camshafts more ridgid then solid, and why do the Engineers I work with who have 8+ years in college for engineering and worked for formula 1 teams for another 10 hollow out crankshaft journals to decrease flexing in an engine putting out over 800 hp and has bearings smaller then a 4 cylinder honda? I can site books if you like...
I believe you have parts of it right. A hollowed object can have the same strength in some vectors as the solid. In engineering you decide what vectors are important for strength and design around those. The "I beam" of a sky scraper is as strong in the compression vector as a solid would be and close to as stong in the other vectors PLUS since it has less mass than a solid it is under less load from its own weight.
This idea of the lower mass hollow object placing less load on itself becomes VERY important in DYNAMIC applications such as your example of camshafts and cranshafts where the lower the rotational inertia the lower the forces by a squared factor! Even if the crank or cam was weaker at rest in some vectors it would suffer less loading in use and so act as a "stronger" piece.
Now, this arguement is moot in this application anyways as the direction of the machining leaves strength in the axis needed to containg the combustion forces withing the rotor housing.
I would never induce turbulance into a cooling system
Turbulators
Modern heat exchangers (radiator, IC in auto applications) have corrugated fins inside the tubes to enhance turbulence and aid cooling- they are called "turbulators".
The machining of the rotor housings does have this "turbulator" affect as well as removing the anodized surface of the aluminum for better heat exchange and increasing the surface area of the rotor housing hot spot for increased heat exchange.
This mod has been used for the last 30+ years on NA race rotaries and is very relevant now with the higher thermal loads of high HP turbo rotaies.
I believe you have parts of it right. A hollowed object can have the same strength in some vectors as the solid. In engineering you decide what vectors are important for strength and design around those. The "I beam" of a sky scraper is as strong in the compression vector as a solid would be and close to as stong in the other vectors PLUS since it has less mass than a solid it is under less load from its own weight.
This idea of the lower mass hollow object placing less load on itself becomes VERY important in DYNAMIC applications such as your example of camshafts and cranshafts where the lower the rotational inertia the lower the forces by a squared factor! Even if the crank or cam was weaker at rest in some vectors it would suffer less loading in use and so act as a "stronger" piece.
Now, this arguement is moot in this application anyways as the direction of the machining leaves strength in the axis needed to containg the combustion forces withing the rotor housing.
I would never induce turbulance into a cooling system
Turbulators
Modern heat exchangers (radiator, IC in auto applications) have corrugated fins inside the tubes to enhance turbulence and aid cooling- they are called "turbulators".
The machining of the rotor housings does have this "turbulator" affect as well as removing the anodized surface of the aluminum for better heat exchange and increasing the surface area of the rotor housing hot spot for increased heat exchange.
This mod has been used for the last 30+ years on NA race rotaries and is very relevant now with the higher thermal loads of high HP turbo rotaies.
07-03-06, 02:47 PM
#34
Regarless of the effieciency of the cooling you never want sharp edges or obrupt shapes in something that is as highly stressed as an engine block, you are asking for a crack that can cause catastauphic failure. Given the POTENTIAL problems I would rather upgrade my radiator or make some ducting going into it, if your worried about the plugs getting too hot and causing detonation, get colder plugs, that is what they are made for.
It is true you do not want to create stress risers by having sharp edges; it would be recommended to to use a rounded bit or grind your bits square edges rounded for this machining.
This mod is intended for those who ALREADY have the largest radiator they can fit or are allowed by class with proper ducting and ALREADY run the coldest heat range spark plug available.
It is true you do not want to create stress risers by having sharp edges; it would be recommended to to use a rounded bit or grind your bits square edges rounded for this machining.
This mod is intended for those who ALREADY have the largest radiator they can fit or are allowed by class with proper ducting and ALREADY run the coldest heat range spark plug available.
07-04-06, 01:45 AM
#36
I don't have a camera on hand 
I found the bit at my local ACE Hardware in the Dremel section.
Racing Beat recommends using a 1/8" dia 2 13/16" long shaft bit with a 3/16" round head. Using this bit you would have to do the job by hand holding the bit at an angle to the housing for proper depth and hope it comes out straight.
That is why I went with a larger diameter head so I could "mill" the grooves in my drill press for straight grooves and equal spacing.
I found the bit at my local ACE Hardware in the Dremel section.
Racing Beat recommends using a 1/8" dia 2 13/16" long shaft bit with a 3/16" round head. Using this bit you would have to do the job by hand holding the bit at an angle to the housing for proper depth and hope it comes out straight.
That is why I went with a larger diameter head so I could "mill" the grooves in my drill press for straight grooves and equal spacing.
07-05-06, 06:04 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by BLUE TII
Wow, what engineering school did that come from? If that is the case, explain I beams in sky scrapers and I or H beam connecting rods? Why then are hollow camshafts more ridgid then solid, and why do the Engineers I work with who have 8+ years in college for engineering and worked for formula 1 teams for another 10 hollow out crankshaft journals to decrease flexing in an engine putting out over 800 hp and has bearings smaller then a 4 cylinder honda? I can site books if you like...
I believe you have parts of it right. A hollowed object can have the same strength in some vectors as the solid. In engineering you decide what vectors are important for strength and design around those. The "I beam" of a sky scraper is as strong in the compression vector as a solid would be and close to as stong in the other vectors PLUS since it has less mass than a solid it is under less load from its own weight.
This idea of the lower mass hollow object placing less load on itself becomes VERY important in DYNAMIC applications such as your example of camshafts and cranshafts where the lower the rotational inertia the lower the forces by a squared factor! Even if the crank or cam was weaker at rest in some vectors it would suffer less loading in use and so act as a "stronger" piece.
Now, this arguement is moot in this application anyways as the direction of the machining leaves strength in the axis needed to containg the combustion forces withing the rotor housing.
I would never induce turbulance into a cooling system
Turbulators
Modern heat exchangers (radiator, IC in auto applications) have corrugated fins inside the tubes to enhance turbulence and aid cooling- they are called "turbulators".
The machining of the rotor housings does have this "turbulator" affect as well as removing the anodized surface of the aluminum for better heat exchange and increasing the surface area of the rotor housing hot spot for increased heat exchange.
This mod has been used for the last 30+ years on NA race rotaries and is very relevant now with the higher thermal loads of high HP turbo rotaies.
I believe you have parts of it right. A hollowed object can have the same strength in some vectors as the solid. In engineering you decide what vectors are important for strength and design around those. The "I beam" of a sky scraper is as strong in the compression vector as a solid would be and close to as stong in the other vectors PLUS since it has less mass than a solid it is under less load from its own weight.
This idea of the lower mass hollow object placing less load on itself becomes VERY important in DYNAMIC applications such as your example of camshafts and cranshafts where the lower the rotational inertia the lower the forces by a squared factor! Even if the crank or cam was weaker at rest in some vectors it would suffer less loading in use and so act as a "stronger" piece.
Now, this arguement is moot in this application anyways as the direction of the machining leaves strength in the axis needed to containg the combustion forces withing the rotor housing.
I would never induce turbulance into a cooling system
Turbulators
Modern heat exchangers (radiator, IC in auto applications) have corrugated fins inside the tubes to enhance turbulence and aid cooling- they are called "turbulators".
The machining of the rotor housings does have this "turbulator" affect as well as removing the anodized surface of the aluminum for better heat exchange and increasing the surface area of the rotor housing hot spot for increased heat exchange.
This mod has been used for the last 30+ years on NA race rotaries and is very relevant now with the higher thermal loads of high HP turbo rotaies.
RB has grooved coolent passages for years, the coolent flow isnt fast enough to cause cavitation or other things like the thermostat, and radiator would too. I'm just to lazy to do it.
07-06-06, 06:39 AM
#41
Lives on the Forum
Holy crap, I can't believe that BS that some people spew!
Racing Beat does it.
They claimed it works.
That's good enough proof for me.
Yes, I have it listed on my website, but I don't like to do it.
Racing Beat does it for TOO CHEAP IMO.
I can't undercut their price.
I really don't like doing that job, as it takes me too much time and not worth the price.
I need to pull that listing, but I'm too lazy to recover all my old files off a dead laptop right now (same reason why the website hasn't been updated for MONTHS!).
This is not about (compromising) strength.
That part of the engine is not a stressed member.
The corners with the dowel pins take the majorty of the engine housing stress.
The coolant passages are only pressured maybe up to 15psi - slightly more for racing engines.
You think knocking off a few mm of aluminum is going to compromise the rotor housing wall?
No.
-Ted
Racing Beat does it.
They claimed it works.
That's good enough proof for me.
Yes, I have it listed on my website, but I don't like to do it.
Racing Beat does it for TOO CHEAP IMO.
I can't undercut their price.
I really don't like doing that job, as it takes me too much time and not worth the price.
I need to pull that listing, but I'm too lazy to recover all my old files off a dead laptop right now (same reason why the website hasn't been updated for MONTHS!).
This is not about (compromising) strength.
That part of the engine is not a stressed member.
The corners with the dowel pins take the majorty of the engine housing stress.
The coolant passages are only pressured maybe up to 15psi - slightly more for racing engines.
You think knocking off a few mm of aluminum is going to compromise the rotor housing wall?
No.
-Ted
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