Noob needs help with 88 T2,
08-26-05, 02:56 PM
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Noob needs help with 88 T2,
Hello People!
My name is Peyman and I live in NC. I just bought a 1988 Rx-7 Turbo, convertible, 5-speed, 80K.
I got it 2 days ago. The problem is i know nothing about rotary engines.
The car seems really nice, but there is a problem that concerns me. The car will not start, and when (if ) it does, alot of white smoke comes out the exhaust for a few seconds, but then all the smoke clears out. It smells like gasoline, but if you stay around it for a while your eyes start to burn. The car idles rough and funny, but it pulls hard when you hit the gas, I have already hit 120 mph with no problems.
The other problem is that it overheats, i believe. The reason I say this is, even if the car hasnt moved for a whole day, as soon as it starts, the water temp. gauge goes all the way up to hot slowly comes down to 3/4, then work its way back up to hot and stays there the whole time drive, but when you stop and let it idle, it comes down a couple of needles.
I love the car already, but these problems concern me, so if you guys know what it could be, please give me ideas asap!!!
Thanks, feels good to be here....
My name is Peyman and I live in NC. I just bought a 1988 Rx-7 Turbo, convertible, 5-speed, 80K.
I got it 2 days ago. The problem is i know nothing about rotary engines.
The car seems really nice, but there is a problem that concerns me. The car will not start, and when (if ) it does, alot of white smoke comes out the exhaust for a few seconds, but then all the smoke clears out. It smells like gasoline, but if you stay around it for a while your eyes start to burn. The car idles rough and funny, but it pulls hard when you hit the gas, I have already hit 120 mph with no problems.
The other problem is that it overheats, i believe. The reason I say this is, even if the car hasnt moved for a whole day, as soon as it starts, the water temp. gauge goes all the way up to hot slowly comes down to 3/4, then work its way back up to hot and stays there the whole time drive, but when you stop and let it idle, it comes down a couple of needles.
I love the car already, but these problems concern me, so if you guys know what it could be, please give me ideas asap!!!
Thanks, feels good to be here....
08-26-05, 03:14 PM
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Your seals maybe going out, and coolant is leaking in combustion chamber causing the white smoke. The coolant builds up more and more the longer the car sits, causing alot of smoke at first, but when the engine is running it burns it all out. So that explains the no smoke afterwards.
The overheating issue? Try flushing coolant, bleed air out of coolant lines.
I have no idea about the gasoline thing though.
The overheating issue? Try flushing coolant, bleed air out of coolant lines.
I have no idea about the gasoline thing though.
08-26-05, 03:21 PM
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if it leaks coolant, wouldnt i be able to smell it? Thanks for the help so far, do you guys think i just attemt to fix it myself whatever the problem be or just pay a little and let a mechanic that works on rotary engines take care of if? I got the car for a good price, so i dont mind spending a little on it...
08-26-05, 03:32 PM
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i just went out and started it(rolling down the hill, popping the clutch) and it smoked for about a minute, smelled just like when you start a tractor, but when i rev it is really choppy after 4K rpms, and the water temp just kept climing, it went to 180 degrees(aftermarket water temp. gauge) then i cut the car off.
Any ideas?
Any ideas?
08-26-05, 03:33 PM
#6
IF it was a coolant leak, you would smell it (assuming that you have coolant in the rad, not straight water) . however, gas makes black smoke, not white. either way, you should flush the cooling system and change the thermostat, which will probably fix your heat problem. also note that overheating kills rotaries in minutes. do not drive the car with the guage over 3/4, ever. if it gets that high, shut it off immediately and wait for it to cool b4 driving it anymore.
pat
pat
08-26-05, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by staticguitar313
if you dont mind spending a little money on it, do a full rebuild and a mild port job, any problem solved 
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08-26-05, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by patman
IF it was a coolant leak, you would smell it (assuming that you have coolant in the rad, not straight water) . however, gas makes black smoke, not white. either way, you should flush the cooling system and change the thermostat, which will probably fix your heat problem. also note that overheating kills rotaries in minutes. do not drive the car with the guage over 3/4, ever. if it gets that high, shut it off immediately and wait for it to cool b4 driving it anymore.
pat
pat
08-26-05, 05:50 PM
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i called my friend and he said his father could help me, he can rebuild and all that good stuff, so hopefully i'll make it to their house with the car....
i'll keep in mind if it hits 210 i'll shut it off, but when it hit 180 it had been on for only about 10 minutes...so i know for sure its going to overheat
i'll keep in mind if it hits 210 i'll shut it off, but when it hit 180 it had been on for only about 10 minutes...so i know for sure its going to overheat
08-26-05, 06:10 PM
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I think worrying about 210 is a bit extreme.. you figure the stock Mazda thermostat opens @ 180... I'd say if it gets to 220, start to get concerned.. it also depends on where the aftermarket temp guage is plumbed to. I have mine right below the thermostat, and I'll often see a heat spike of 215, right before the Tstat opens, and it drops down to 180ish.. My stock gauge barely moves above 1/4 at this point (Series 4).
It sounds like there's a problem with your stock gauge, though, if it immediately goes up to the "H" line.. No engine in any car gets up to 180+ in less than 30 seconds... even without coolant.. hell, mine takes 4-5 minutes on the highway to hit operating temps.
I thought gas makes white smoke that obviously smells like gas? I thought the only thing that made black smoke was Oil? That's all I've ever seen do it.. Think about it, when your car floods, it burns white until compression comes back. Coolant makes white smoke that smells definately like burnt antifreeze. Even if you've never smelled it, you can't mistake it, UNLESS, the previous owner didn't run any antifreeze in the car? You'll be able to tell once you flush your coolant system, but it'll be pretty obvious if you're burning away that much coolant..
Peyman - I'd probably be looking more towards a malfunctioning/stuck injector at this point, although there's one easy way to tell.. pull your spark plugs out, and rotate the engine by hand. If any water comes out, you know your coolant seals are shot and it's rebuild city. If not, you may have a leakign injector problem, causing your car to flood every time you turn it off.
Edit: Also, look at your plugs next time you turn the car over, and it doesn't start. are they wet with coolant, or wet with gas? Ideally, it will be neither, but I'm guessing they'll be wet with gas.. Let us know, and we can go from there.
It sounds like there's a problem with your stock gauge, though, if it immediately goes up to the "H" line.. No engine in any car gets up to 180+ in less than 30 seconds... even without coolant.. hell, mine takes 4-5 minutes on the highway to hit operating temps.
Originally Posted by PatMan
however, gas makes black smoke, not white
Peyman - I'd probably be looking more towards a malfunctioning/stuck injector at this point, although there's one easy way to tell.. pull your spark plugs out, and rotate the engine by hand. If any water comes out, you know your coolant seals are shot and it's rebuild city. If not, you may have a leakign injector problem, causing your car to flood every time you turn it off.
Edit: Also, look at your plugs next time you turn the car over, and it doesn't start. are they wet with coolant, or wet with gas? Ideally, it will be neither, but I'm guessing they'll be wet with gas.. Let us know, and we can go from there.
Last edited by WonkoTheSane; 08-26-05 at 06:13 PM.
08-26-05, 06:39 PM
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Peyman,
The excessive white smoke, fuel smell, and hard starting sounds like the car is maybe flooding. A small amount of smoke, just when first starting, is normal. It is at least with my reb eng w/ 40k mi...
If you get it started and it still smells like gas after you drive it for a while, you may have fuel leak. Check the pulsation damper and fuel lines. . . I've had 3 different fuel leaks. I'm surprised I haven't blown up.
As for the water temps, I think patman is right... 180 is about right, and 210 is time to be careful... Turn your heat on if it gets that high...
-Charles
The excessive white smoke, fuel smell, and hard starting sounds like the car is maybe flooding. A small amount of smoke, just when first starting, is normal. It is at least with my reb eng w/ 40k mi...
If you get it started and it still smells like gas after you drive it for a while, you may have fuel leak. Check the pulsation damper and fuel lines. . . I've had 3 different fuel leaks. I'm surprised I haven't blown up.
As for the water temps, I think patman is right... 180 is about right, and 210 is time to be careful... Turn your heat on if it gets that high...
-Charles
08-26-05, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by WonkoTheSane
I think worrying about 210 is a bit extreme.. you figure the stock Mazda thermostat opens @ 180... I'd say if it gets to 220, start to get concerned.. it also depends on where the aftermarket temp guage is plumbed to. I have mine right below the thermostat, and I'll often see a heat spike of 215, right before the Tstat opens, and it drops down to 180ish.. My stock gauge barely moves above 1/4 at this point (Series 4).
It sounds like there's a problem with your stock gauge, though, if it immediately goes up to the "H" line.. No engine in any car gets up to 180+ in less than 30 seconds... even without coolant.. hell, mine takes 4-5 minutes on the highway to hit operating temps.
I thought gas makes white smoke that obviously smells like gas? I thought the only thing that made black smoke was Oil? That's all I've ever seen do it.. Think about it, when your car floods, it burns white until compression comes back. Coolant makes white smoke that smells definately like burnt antifreeze. Even if you've never smelled it, you can't mistake it, UNLESS, the previous owner didn't run any antifreeze in the car? You'll be able to tell once you flush your coolant system, but it'll be pretty obvious if you're burning away that much coolant..
Peyman - I'd probably be looking more towards a malfunctioning/stuck injector at this point, although there's one easy way to tell.. pull your spark plugs out, and rotate the engine by hand. If any water comes out, you know your coolant seals are shot and it's rebuild city. If not, you may have a leakign injector problem, causing your car to flood every time you turn it off.
Edit: Also, look at your plugs next time you turn the car over, and it doesn't start. are they wet with coolant, or wet with gas? Ideally, it will be neither, but I'm guessing they'll be wet with gas.. Let us know, and we can go from there.
It sounds like there's a problem with your stock gauge, though, if it immediately goes up to the "H" line.. No engine in any car gets up to 180+ in less than 30 seconds... even without coolant.. hell, mine takes 4-5 minutes on the highway to hit operating temps.
I thought gas makes white smoke that obviously smells like gas? I thought the only thing that made black smoke was Oil? That's all I've ever seen do it.. Think about it, when your car floods, it burns white until compression comes back. Coolant makes white smoke that smells definately like burnt antifreeze. Even if you've never smelled it, you can't mistake it, UNLESS, the previous owner didn't run any antifreeze in the car? You'll be able to tell once you flush your coolant system, but it'll be pretty obvious if you're burning away that much coolant..
Peyman - I'd probably be looking more towards a malfunctioning/stuck injector at this point, although there's one easy way to tell.. pull your spark plugs out, and rotate the engine by hand. If any water comes out, you know your coolant seals are shot and it's rebuild city. If not, you may have a leakign injector problem, causing your car to flood every time you turn it off.
Edit: Also, look at your plugs next time you turn the car over, and it doesn't start. are they wet with coolant, or wet with gas? Ideally, it will be neither, but I'm guessing they'll be wet with gas.. Let us know, and we can go from there.
I dont know where the after market temp. gauge is hooked up to, but it also has a oil pressure gauge that does not function correctly, it constantly jumps from 0 to 60 back and forth. The stock water temp. gauge goes all the way to H even if you just turn the switch on, so it is obviously not functioning correctly.
I dont think i have a coolant leak because the coolant has been flushed and it remains full, spark plugs are new. I will change the oil and oil filter tomorrow.
I will turn the car on tomorrow and read the aftermarket temp. gauge and see what it does.
As of the white smoke, it clears away pretty quick, but even after the smoke clears, if you stand close to the exhaust, the fumes make your eyes burn, and it idles rough even if you drive it for 30 minutes. So, with that being said, i believe i have an internal gas leak. I will try the tricks to see if my injectors leak etc.
Thank you all for your help!
PS. I JUST FOUND AN OXYGEN SENSOR ATTACHED TO THE TURBO has a wire, and has a head piece BUT THE OTHER END (head piece) IS NOT PLUGGED IN ANYWHERE. Should it be plugged somewhere, if so where? Could this be the cause of the problem?
Let me know asap so i can get to work tomorrow morning!
Last edited by Peyman; 08-26-05 at 08:15 PM.
08-26-05, 08:36 PM
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Well I dont think that an unplugged oxygen sensor would be the cause of your problem since the O2 sensor is used by the ECU to set in closed loop mode ( cruising on the highway) , which is there to save gaz.
It might have other important functions ( which I'm not aware of though... ), but I dont think this would be a cause...
If I was you, I'd begin by :
- cleaning the injectors and once you're there, change the PD or do the banjo bolt mod
- try to pressurise your cooling system, if it does not hold the pressure, check for external leaks, if no external leaks, spin engine with no plug to be sure theres no coolant in the enigne.
- flush and fill coolant, but try to pressure wash the engine's coolant passages. Simply remove the LIM, and then spray pressurized water inside the block with the drain plug removed ( be careful not to spray into the combustion chamber. you'll be amazed at how much rusty mud comes out ). while reassembling everything, buy new gaskets and O rings, they're pretty cheap and this will avoid you to dissasemble everything again for a leak.
- hunt carefully for vacuum leaks and be sure your timing and TPS are set accordingly to the FSM's values. 'cuz these could be the cause of your lumpy idle.
- Do the regular compression test to be aware of your engine's condition
Hope it helps you a little
l-p
It might have other important functions ( which I'm not aware of though... ), but I dont think this would be a cause...
If I was you, I'd begin by :
- cleaning the injectors and once you're there, change the PD or do the banjo bolt mod
- try to pressurise your cooling system, if it does not hold the pressure, check for external leaks, if no external leaks, spin engine with no plug to be sure theres no coolant in the enigne.
- flush and fill coolant, but try to pressure wash the engine's coolant passages. Simply remove the LIM, and then spray pressurized water inside the block with the drain plug removed ( be careful not to spray into the combustion chamber. you'll be amazed at how much rusty mud comes out ). while reassembling everything, buy new gaskets and O rings, they're pretty cheap and this will avoid you to dissasemble everything again for a leak.
- hunt carefully for vacuum leaks and be sure your timing and TPS are set accordingly to the FSM's values. 'cuz these could be the cause of your lumpy idle.
- Do the regular compression test to be aware of your engine's condition
Hope it helps you a little
l-p
08-26-05, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rotarypower86
As for the water temps, I think patman is right... 180 is about right, and 210 is time to be careful... Turn your heat on if it gets that high...
Peyman - It'sg reat that your plugs are new, that'll make it easy to see what's goign on internally..
08-26-05, 09:16 PM
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YOU could have leaky injectors which is why it wont start easily. All that white smoke is extra fuel that was sitting in the engine when you started it. Extra Fuel doesnt make black smoke. The next time you try starting it, pull the egi fuse first, and crank the engine a couple times( shouldnt start). Then put it back in and it should start.
08-26-05, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TII '87
Well I dont think that an unplugged oxygen sensor would be the cause of your problem since the O2 sensor is used by the ECU to set in closed loop mode ( cruising on the highway) , which is there to save gaz.
It might have other important functions ( which I'm not aware of though... ), but I dont think this would be a cause...
If I was you, I'd begin by :
- cleaning the injectors and once you're there, change the PD or do the banjo bolt mod
- try to pressurise your cooling system, if it does not hold the pressure, check for external leaks, if no external leaks, spin engine with no plug to be sure theres no coolant in the enigne.
- flush and fill coolant, but try to pressure wash the engine's coolant passages. Simply remove the LIM, and then spray pressurized water inside the block with the drain plug removed ( be careful not to spray into the combustion chamber. you'll be amazed at how much rusty mud comes out ). while reassembling everything, buy new gaskets and O rings, they're pretty cheap and this will avoid you to dissasemble everything again for a leak.
- hunt carefully for vacuum leaks and be sure your timing and TPS are set accordingly to the FSM's values. 'cuz these could be the cause of your lumpy idle.
- Do the regular compression test to be aware of your engine's condition
Hope it helps you a little
l-p
It might have other important functions ( which I'm not aware of though... ), but I dont think this would be a cause...
If I was you, I'd begin by :
- cleaning the injectors and once you're there, change the PD or do the banjo bolt mod
- try to pressurise your cooling system, if it does not hold the pressure, check for external leaks, if no external leaks, spin engine with no plug to be sure theres no coolant in the enigne.
- flush and fill coolant, but try to pressure wash the engine's coolant passages. Simply remove the LIM, and then spray pressurized water inside the block with the drain plug removed ( be careful not to spray into the combustion chamber. you'll be amazed at how much rusty mud comes out ). while reassembling everything, buy new gaskets and O rings, they're pretty cheap and this will avoid you to dissasemble everything again for a leak.
- hunt carefully for vacuum leaks and be sure your timing and TPS are set accordingly to the FSM's values. 'cuz these could be the cause of your lumpy idle.
- Do the regular compression test to be aware of your engine's condition
Hope it helps you a little
l-p
I will defenately rotate the engine manually tomorrow and see what comes out....
08-27-05, 10:52 AM
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ok, so i pulled both spark plugs out and they smelled like gas. First i pulled the leading then the trailing, but they were both soaked in gas.
So what does this mean? I need new fuel injectors? If so, is it complicated to remove the cover for the injectors and the injectors to put new ones in myself, or should i take it to a shop?
Please let me know asap, i'm happy i found the problem, thanks alot so far guys!
So what does this mean? I need new fuel injectors? If so, is it complicated to remove the cover for the injectors and the injectors to put new ones in myself, or should i take it to a shop?
Please let me know asap, i'm happy i found the problem, thanks alot so far guys!
08-27-05, 02:36 PM
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ok, so i pulled both spark plugs out and they smelled like gas. First i pulled the leading then the trailing, but they were both soaked in gas.
So what does this mean? I need new fuel injectors? If so, is it complicated to remove the cover for the injectors and the injectors to put new ones in myself, or should i take it to a shop?
Please let me know asap, i'm happy i found the problem, thanks alot so far guys!
So what does this mean? I need new fuel injectors? If so, is it complicated to remove the cover for the injectors and the injectors to put new ones in myself, or should i take it to a shop?
Please let me know asap, i'm happy i found the problem, thanks alot so far guys!
Rotary exhaust fumes do typically smell like gas. If the car itself smells like gas, than you probably have an fuel leak. . .
It probably is your injectors leaking if your spark plugs where that bad. The 2 secondary injectors(The injectors just above the intake manifold) are fairly easy to get to, but the 2 primaries are a little more involved. First, I would recommend you taking out the 2 secondaries and sending them to RC Engineering ( http://www.rceng.com/ ) to get them professionally cleaned. Then if this didn't fix the problem, take it to a shop to have them take out the primaries, and send them to be cleaned. At RC Engineering they flow test and like completely overhaul each injector. I sent my injectors there and I almost thought they sent me new ones. They also give you a printout of before and after of each injectors flow rate. One of my injectors was leaking and they also fixed that. The cleaning cost about $25 per injector, which is a LOT cheaper than buying new ones and they come back basically new.
I hope this helps and hope your rx gets fixed quickly!
-Charles
(Sorry, I sent half of the message by accident)
Last edited by rotarypower86; 08-27-05 at 02:56 PM.
08-28-05, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rotarypower86
Peyman,
Rotary exhaust fumes do typically smell like gas. If the car itself smells like gas, than you probably have an fuel leak. . .
It probably is your injectors leaking if your spark plugs where that bad. The 2 secondary injectors(The injectors just above the intake manifold) are fairly easy to get to, but the 2 primaries are a little more involved. First, I would recommend you taking out the 2 secondaries and sending them to RC Engineering ( http://www.rceng.com/ ) to get them professionally cleaned. Then if this didn't fix the problem, take it to a shop to have them take out the primaries, and send them to be cleaned. At RC Engineering they flow test and like completely overhaul each injector. I sent my injectors there and I almost thought they sent me new ones. They also give you a printout of before and after of each injectors flow rate. One of my injectors was leaking and they also fixed that. The cleaning cost about $25 per injector, which is a LOT cheaper than buying new ones and they come back basically new.
I hope this helps and hope your rx gets fixed quickly!
-Charles
(Sorry, I sent half of the message by accident)
Rotary exhaust fumes do typically smell like gas. If the car itself smells like gas, than you probably have an fuel leak. . .
It probably is your injectors leaking if your spark plugs where that bad. The 2 secondary injectors(The injectors just above the intake manifold) are fairly easy to get to, but the 2 primaries are a little more involved. First, I would recommend you taking out the 2 secondaries and sending them to RC Engineering ( http://www.rceng.com/ ) to get them professionally cleaned. Then if this didn't fix the problem, take it to a shop to have them take out the primaries, and send them to be cleaned. At RC Engineering they flow test and like completely overhaul each injector. I sent my injectors there and I almost thought they sent me new ones. They also give you a printout of before and after of each injectors flow rate. One of my injectors was leaking and they also fixed that. The cleaning cost about $25 per injector, which is a LOT cheaper than buying new ones and they come back basically new.
I hope this helps and hope your rx gets fixed quickly!
-Charles
(Sorry, I sent half of the message by accident)
I went to advance auto parts yesterday and this guy refered me to his friend that is a rx-7 guru, i called him and he said he will start working on it this comming friday. How do you get to your secondary injectors? What needs to be removed to get to them, and exactly where are they located?
08-28-05, 12:20 PM
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Ok I just remembered that you have a turbo. . .The secondary injectors are just below and left of the intercooler, and below the intake manifold. You can see the picture that I attached. I think you may just be able to get to the primary injectors while you're at it on the turbo setup. . .
This probably involves taking the intercooler, throttle body, upper intake manifold, and fuel rail(obviously) off. I have a non/turbo (n/a) rx7, so I was thinking about how the injectors were setup on mine. If your friends friend is pretty good mechanically, this should be no problem to get to these injectors. You probably want to get a gasket for between the upper and lower intake manifold too. If you send the inj's to rc eng, they will replace the injector o-rings, but not the upper and lower boot(The rubber part that the injector sits on).
-charles
This probably involves taking the intercooler, throttle body, upper intake manifold, and fuel rail(obviously) off. I have a non/turbo (n/a) rx7, so I was thinking about how the injectors were setup on mine. If your friends friend is pretty good mechanically, this should be no problem to get to these injectors. You probably want to get a gasket for between the upper and lower intake manifold too. If you send the inj's to rc eng, they will replace the injector o-rings, but not the upper and lower boot(The rubber part that the injector sits on).
-charles
08-28-05, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rotarypower86
Ok I just remembered that you have a turbo. . .The secondary injectors are just below and left of the intercooler, and below the intake manifold. You can see the picture that I attached. I think you may just be able to get to the primary injectors while you're at it on the turbo setup. . .
This probably involves taking the intercooler, throttle body, upper intake manifold, and fuel rail(obviously) off. I have a non/turbo (n/a) rx7, so I was thinking about how the injectors were setup on mine. If your friends friend is pretty good mechanically, this should be no problem to get to these injectors. You probably want to get a gasket for between the upper and lower intake manifold too. If you send the inj's to rc eng, they will replace the injector o-rings, but not the upper and lower boot(The rubber part that the injector sits on).
-charles
This probably involves taking the intercooler, throttle body, upper intake manifold, and fuel rail(obviously) off. I have a non/turbo (n/a) rx7, so I was thinking about how the injectors were setup on mine. If your friends friend is pretty good mechanically, this should be no problem to get to these injectors. You probably want to get a gasket for between the upper and lower intake manifold too. If you send the inj's to rc eng, they will replace the injector o-rings, but not the upper and lower boot(The rubber part that the injector sits on).
-charles
