Need Help Setting Ignition Timing
11-12-07, 11:07 AM
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Need Help Setting Ignition Timing
Ok Got It Together No More Noise!!!!!
Now I Cannot Get The Timing Right. Anyone Know A Sure Way To Do It???
I Align The E Shaft Pulley Marks. And Align The Cas Marks ? When I Put It In And Start It According To My Timing Light I Can Get The Mark And The Pointer On The Cover To Line Up But I Cant Adjust Past It??? Is That Normal? Like The Sensor Is Maxxed Out? Anyone Know What Im Doing Wrong??? Also The Car Falls Flat On Its Face At 2500 Rpms? On My Last Try Lastnight I Set It And Didnt Even See The Eshaft Marks On The Pulley ??? Like It Was 180 Out? But Running! I Did Replace The Pulley Hub A While Back With One From A Nonturbo Used The Old Pulleys? I Went To A Speed Shop Here And They Sold It To Me Said There Should Be No Difference In The Pulley Hub For Turbo Or Nonturbo???? Sound Right?? Any Help Would Be Great Thanks
Now I Cannot Get The Timing Right. Anyone Know A Sure Way To Do It???
I Align The E Shaft Pulley Marks. And Align The Cas Marks ? When I Put It In And Start It According To My Timing Light I Can Get The Mark And The Pointer On The Cover To Line Up But I Cant Adjust Past It??? Is That Normal? Like The Sensor Is Maxxed Out? Anyone Know What Im Doing Wrong??? Also The Car Falls Flat On Its Face At 2500 Rpms? On My Last Try Lastnight I Set It And Didnt Even See The Eshaft Marks On The Pulley ??? Like It Was 180 Out? But Running! I Did Replace The Pulley Hub A While Back With One From A Nonturbo Used The Old Pulleys? I Went To A Speed Shop Here And They Sold It To Me Said There Should Be No Difference In The Pulley Hub For Turbo Or Nonturbo???? Sound Right?? Any Help Would Be Great Thanks
11-12-07, 01:28 PM
#2
You need to align the pulley to the timing marks. Then align the timing dot on the CAS. Pull off the cap on the cas and look at the orientation of the two teeth on the Home Wheel. Stab the cas and make sure those teeth remain in the proper position..
DONE!
DONE!
11-13-07, 07:45 AM
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OK TRIED THAT STILL CANT GET IT RIGHT! WHAT AM I DOING WRONG. THIS SHOULD NOT BE THAT HARD. IN THE MANUAL IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT INITIAL SET COUPLER TO SET THE TIMIMG. IS THAT WRONG? 
11-13-07, 07:16 PM
#5
Warm the engine to operating temp, jumper the initial set coupler, then set timing. If it gets 'maxed out', then remove the cas and turn it one tooth, replace, retry.
I had a similar problem after rebuilding. I installed the CAS drive gear backwards. Maxed out, I was getting about 3mm away from the points lining up, so I moved the cas one tooth. Now, maxed out the opposite direction, I was still 3 mm away. Removed the front cover to find the drive gear flipped. Reassembled and checked timing. Bingo- dead on!
I had a similar problem after rebuilding. I installed the CAS drive gear backwards. Maxed out, I was getting about 3mm away from the points lining up, so I moved the cas one tooth. Now, maxed out the opposite direction, I was still 3 mm away. Removed the front cover to find the drive gear flipped. Reassembled and checked timing. Bingo- dead on!
11-13-07, 07:53 PM
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Using a clamp on the sparkplug wire? Be sure to put it on the wire close to the sparkplug itself and not near the lead coil end of the wire.
Also, if it does not seem to light up constantly but just flickers once and a while, then reverse your clamp on the wire. I'm saying if the clamp has an arrow that is supposed to point towards the sparkplug, reverse that clam where the arrow on the clamp is towards the coil assy.
You want the mark on the pulley to match the fixed pointer, so I don't understand what that problem is your having. You said it matches.
Are you saying you can't adjust past it because the cas can't turn anymore in one direction? Like the end of the slot in the cas is resting against the hold down bolt/stud?
Also, if it does not seem to light up constantly but just flickers once and a while, then reverse your clamp on the wire. I'm saying if the clamp has an arrow that is supposed to point towards the sparkplug, reverse that clam where the arrow on the clamp is towards the coil assy.
You want the mark on the pulley to match the fixed pointer, so I don't understand what that problem is your having. You said it matches.
Are you saying you can't adjust past it because the cas can't turn anymore in one direction? Like the end of the slot in the cas is resting against the hold down bolt/stud?
11-14-07, 06:42 AM
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ok got tit lined up once lastnight and the cas adjusted once the car was was way advanced then i could only get it to the mark again like before. also i tried adjusting the bac and i cant nothing turnes it. tried it accourding to the FSM sticking a scewdriver flat head in the bac to turn it but nothing? what else is a idle adjustment? and i installed the cas drive gear accourinbg to akinsrotary rebuild video. larget beveled side toward the motor? sounds good right?
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11-14-07, 08:03 AM
#8
Make sure you align (stab) your CAS and insert it with the LEADING pulley marked aligned to the pointer in the front cover. The leading mark is the first one as you turn the engine clockwise, standing in front of the car. When you check timing with the clamp on the #1 rotor leading coil, this is the mark that should lign up. When you place the clamp on the #1 trailing coil, the other mark should lign up.
Note that the #1 and #2 leading spark plugs fire at the same time, but don't mix up the wires on the trailing side. I'm also thinking your CAS gear may be jumping out of position when you insert it in the front cover. Take the back plate off, stab it, and make marks to ensure the gear isn't turning. Read this here on the list. I also like the suggestion that the gear may be backwards, but hope that's not your case. May have to follow the other advice to move the CAS gear one gear either way and see how it goes.
As far as idle is concerned, follow previous advice, and warm up the car. Make sure the fast idle mechanism at the back of the TB is releasing. You can check this by pressing a flat headed screwdriver on the lever the fast idle thermowax pushes on. On my car, it wasn't releasing, and when I pressed with the screwdriver, the throttle was closing a bit more (to its proper place). Set idle to spec (750 +- 25? - double-check), wheels straight, accessories off, jumper plug jumpered. Then check timing. Timing will affect idle RPM's a bit (you'll notice this), so I usually go back and adjust idle and re-check timing. It doesn't take long. Remember that each system affects a bunch of others, so one needs to be thorough. Hope some of this helps.
Note that the #1 and #2 leading spark plugs fire at the same time, but don't mix up the wires on the trailing side. I'm also thinking your CAS gear may be jumping out of position when you insert it in the front cover. Take the back plate off, stab it, and make marks to ensure the gear isn't turning. Read this here on the list. I also like the suggestion that the gear may be backwards, but hope that's not your case. May have to follow the other advice to move the CAS gear one gear either way and see how it goes.
As far as idle is concerned, follow previous advice, and warm up the car. Make sure the fast idle mechanism at the back of the TB is releasing. You can check this by pressing a flat headed screwdriver on the lever the fast idle thermowax pushes on. On my car, it wasn't releasing, and when I pressed with the screwdriver, the throttle was closing a bit more (to its proper place). Set idle to spec (750 +- 25? - double-check), wheels straight, accessories off, jumper plug jumpered. Then check timing. Timing will affect idle RPM's a bit (you'll notice this), so I usually go back and adjust idle and re-check timing. It doesn't take long. Remember that each system affects a bunch of others, so one needs to be thorough. Hope some of this helps.
11-14-07, 08:06 AM
#9
Careful there! Just read on your profile your car is a NA, so the idle is not adjusted on your BAC. You'll find a flat headed screw at the top of your Throttle body - that's your idle adjustment screw. The NA BAC doesn't have that screw. If you did turn a screw on your NA BAC, it may be out of adjustment now.
11-14-07, 11:38 AM
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OK ESHAFT TIMING GEAR IS ON WITH THE LARGEST BEVEL TOWARD THE ENGINE, PER ATKINS REBUILD VIDEO, BEVELED/CHAMFERED SERFACE? SAME THING? THAT IS HOW THE GEAR IS IN. WHEN I PUT THE CAS IN THE COVER IT LOOKS LIKE THE PICTURE SHOWED OF THE INSIDE OF THE CAS. GOOD. THE CAR WAS A SE NOT HAS TII SWAP. AND I CANNOT TURN ANYTHING IN THE BAC???? MY MOTOR IS JSPEC DOES THAT MATTER??? I HAVE BEEN GETTING STEADY LIGHT WHEN USING TIMING LIGHT BUT BEEN PUTTING IT CLOSE TO THE COIL NOT SURE OF THAT EFFECT BUT I WILL TRY CLOSER TO THE PLUG. WHEN THE CAS IS STABBED WHERE SHOULD THE ALIGNMENT SLOT AND BOLT BE IN RELATION TO EACH OTHER CENTERED??? I HAVE PUSHED ON THE TBODY TO CLOSE IT MORE BUT NOTHING CHANGES? ALSO I HAD IT SO CLOSE LASTNIGHT AND ADJUSTED IT TO THE MARK JUST LIKE I THINK IT SHOULD DO AND ALL THE SUDDEN THE MARKS MOVED COUNTER CLOCKWISE!!!!!! AND THEN I COULDNT GET IT BACK WITH OUT TAKING IT APART AGAIN. I HAVE 3 CAS SENSORS THEY EACH HAVE TINNY BIT OF RUST ON THE GEARS BETWEEN THE TEETH NOT WHERE IT PASSES THE PICKUP ONE IS RUST FREE BUT OUT OF MY OLD NONTURBO SHOULD IT BE THE SAME??? AND CHECKING THE TPS FSM ISNT VERY CLEAR. THANKS EVERYONE THIS IS JUST SO FUSTRATING
11-14-07, 02:28 PM
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The timing CANNOT be set using a timing light unless the rpms are well under 1000rpm, preferably closer to 750rpm.
Over about 1100rpm the ECU automatically advances the timing quite a bit, so it would be futile to try timing the engine with the timing light IF this is the case.
It sounds like this MIGHT be your case. I failed to see where you stated the rpms on the engine( skim reading) when using the timing light. I always assumed everyone knew the timing cannot be set using a timing light if the rpms are over 1000-1100 rpms.
Over about 1100rpm the ECU automatically advances the timing quite a bit, so it would be futile to try timing the engine with the timing light IF this is the case.
It sounds like this MIGHT be your case. I failed to see where you stated the rpms on the engine( skim reading) when using the timing light. I always assumed everyone knew the timing cannot be set using a timing light if the rpms are over 1000-1100 rpms.
11-14-07, 02:35 PM
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There's NOTHING wrong with the cas's unless you've been messing with their internals.
I'ts possible the water thermowax is not heating up and that is causing the high rpms. Did you install the water hose on the bottom of the throttle body? AND the outlet line that goes to the bac?
I'ts possible the water thermowax is not heating up and that is causing the high rpms. Did you install the water hose on the bottom of the throttle body? AND the outlet line that goes to the bac?
11-14-07, 03:53 PM
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Ok So Thermowax Screw? Sticking? Ill Look At It Wasnot Sure About The Idle Timing Relation And Can You See The Screw In The Bac? I Cant See Anything And Cant Turn A Thing In It. Ill Look At The Thermowax. Thanks
Rpm 1200
Ok Checked Thermowax And Watched It Move When Warm It Moned The Cam And Before It Rolled Off The End It Seperated From The Cam And Roller That Sound Right??? When Its Warm It Doesnt Appear To Be Touching Each Other. Im Gonna Check Tps Tonight To See If It Is Right . Also Cant See Anything In The Bac To Turn????? Also Have An Uneven Shake/miss When Idling I Did Just Rebuild It. It Only Has 6 Hrs Idle Time And About 10miles On It Does That Gety Better Or Look For More Probs??? Thanks
Rpm 1200
Ok Checked Thermowax And Watched It Move When Warm It Moned The Cam And Before It Rolled Off The End It Seperated From The Cam And Roller That Sound Right??? When Its Warm It Doesnt Appear To Be Touching Each Other. Im Gonna Check Tps Tonight To See If It Is Right . Also Cant See Anything In The Bac To Turn????? Also Have An Uneven Shake/miss When Idling I Did Just Rebuild It. It Only Has 6 Hrs Idle Time And About 10miles On It Does That Gety Better Or Look For More Probs??? Thanks
Last edited by Aaron Cake; 11-18-07 at 10:29 AM. Reason: Merge three posts
11-16-07, 07:08 PM
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Rough idle + too high of speed at idle = Possible Vacuum leak
Running with the timing advanced 10-15° has never caused me any trouble, so don't sweat getting it perfect (just err to the advanced side).
Running with the timing advanced 10-15° has never caused me any trouble, so don't sweat getting it perfect (just err to the advanced side).
11-16-07, 08:28 PM
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Well. You know where the thermowax and the cam/roller is. So now look in that area and find the tiny screw with a 8MM jamnut on it. It's about a half inch long screw.
When the engine is hot, see if that tiny screw is touching the throttle linkage or if there is a gap b/t the tiny screw and the throttle linkage. A fully hot engine would have no gap. Have gap? Something is holding the throttle plates open a touch.
1200rpm does not sound like that. It does sound like a air leak ..somewhere. Maybe a crack in the turbo inlet duct? at the turbo itself?
BAC cannot and will not cause a 1200rpm idle and even if your bac had a screw, adjusting it would not do much of anything. I suspect you don't have a turbo bac, what with no adjusting screw. Do this, remove the plug from the bac and see if the idle changes. Probably won't change the idle at all. Even though I don't think it is the bac, do this to prove it. Unbolt the bac. Buy a roll of gasket paper for a buck fifty. Cutout a piece of gasket to mate with the bac but no holes in it but the two bolt holes. Install the back with this piece of gasket paper b/t the bac and engine. That blocksoff any air to or from the bac. Idle the car. 'Better? Worse? Same?
You can't adjust you timing if the rpms are over 1100rpm. Not with a timing light.
So there's no way you can just adjust it 10 to 15 degrees advanced. You'd have to know what it is in the first place to adjust it either direction. Common sense.
Also, too much advance is what destroys rotor motors.
Can you get this engine hot and retard the timing by turning the cas to get the rpms to drop below 1200rpm?????? Normally if you rotate the cas you can make the rpms drop or rise. If you can rotate the cas til the rpms drop below say 1000rpm, THEN you can use a timing light to see where you are. Try this. Remove the stud or bolt the cinches the cas down. With the engine HOT, turn the cas til the rpms drop down. With the cinch down bolt gone you should have more rotation of the cas.
EDIT: A good none mucked up bac won't cause your problem. But yours could be messed up. So do try the piece of gasket paper b/t the back and engine. Not much time involved and all doubt will be removed about the bac.
This is a very good thing to do. Put your pulley marks opposite the fixed pin. Install the cas. Look in the top of the cas and make it look exactly like this jpg. IF you do, the timing will be within five degrees easily. Then use a timing light to verify the marks on the pulley being where they should be.
I'm not real sure cars can be fixed online.
Your full of good information. I suspected the cas gear being put on backwards on my 86na was the reason that I had to *extend* the slot in the cas in order to get the timing right.
Lately I even held two cas gears together in hand and turned one 180* from the other to see if there was a difference. I couldn't decern a difference by eye, but your comment above makes me realize I most likely did put that cas gear on backwards. Seems to make no difference other than not enough ajustment in the slot of the cas to set the timing.
In short.........I shoulda read your post above, more carefully
When the engine is hot, see if that tiny screw is touching the throttle linkage or if there is a gap b/t the tiny screw and the throttle linkage. A fully hot engine would have no gap. Have gap? Something is holding the throttle plates open a touch.
1200rpm does not sound like that. It does sound like a air leak ..somewhere. Maybe a crack in the turbo inlet duct? at the turbo itself?
BAC cannot and will not cause a 1200rpm idle and even if your bac had a screw, adjusting it would not do much of anything. I suspect you don't have a turbo bac, what with no adjusting screw. Do this, remove the plug from the bac and see if the idle changes. Probably won't change the idle at all. Even though I don't think it is the bac, do this to prove it. Unbolt the bac. Buy a roll of gasket paper for a buck fifty. Cutout a piece of gasket to mate with the bac but no holes in it but the two bolt holes. Install the back with this piece of gasket paper b/t the bac and engine. That blocksoff any air to or from the bac. Idle the car. 'Better? Worse? Same?
You can't adjust you timing if the rpms are over 1100rpm. Not with a timing light.
So there's no way you can just adjust it 10 to 15 degrees advanced. You'd have to know what it is in the first place to adjust it either direction. Common sense.
Also, too much advance is what destroys rotor motors.
Can you get this engine hot and retard the timing by turning the cas to get the rpms to drop below 1200rpm?????? Normally if you rotate the cas you can make the rpms drop or rise. If you can rotate the cas til the rpms drop below say 1000rpm, THEN you can use a timing light to see where you are. Try this. Remove the stud or bolt the cinches the cas down. With the engine HOT, turn the cas til the rpms drop down. With the cinch down bolt gone you should have more rotation of the cas.
EDIT: A good none mucked up bac won't cause your problem. But yours could be messed up. So do try the piece of gasket paper b/t the back and engine. Not much time involved and all doubt will be removed about the bac.
This is a very good thing to do. Put your pulley marks opposite the fixed pin. Install the cas. Look in the top of the cas and make it look exactly like this jpg. IF you do, the timing will be within five degrees easily. Then use a timing light to verify the marks on the pulley being where they should be.
I'm not real sure cars can be fixed online.
Warm the engine to operating temp, jumper the initial set coupler, then set timing. If it gets 'maxed out', then remove the cas and turn it one tooth, replace, retry.
I had a similar problem after rebuilding. I installed the CAS drive gear backwards. Maxed out, I was getting about 3mm away from the points lining up, so I moved the cas one tooth. Now, maxed out the opposite direction, I was still 3 mm away. Removed the front cover to find the drive gear flipped. Reassembled and checked timing. Bingo- dead on!
I had a similar problem after rebuilding. I installed the CAS drive gear backwards. Maxed out, I was getting about 3mm away from the points lining up, so I moved the cas one tooth. Now, maxed out the opposite direction, I was still 3 mm away. Removed the front cover to find the drive gear flipped. Reassembled and checked timing. Bingo- dead on!
Lately I even held two cas gears together in hand and turned one 180* from the other to see if there was a difference. I couldn't decern a difference by eye, but your comment above makes me realize I most likely did put that cas gear on backwards. Seems to make no difference other than not enough ajustment in the slot of the cas to set the timing.
In short.........I shoulda read your post above, more carefully
Last edited by Aaron Cake; 11-18-07 at 10:29 AM. Reason: Merge three posts
11-18-07, 09:14 AM
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yeah 10-15degrees sounds like detonation to me.BAD. all the field man
ok im redoing upper intake manifold and ditching the red vaccum lines they suck they get soft and my brake line collapsed already built the tps tester i did remove it when i was cleaning everything so mabey off? im gonna check to know anyway. but i broke the damn intake air temp sensor so gotta hit junkyard today hour drive sucks. then finish back together and see what happens
ok im redoing upper intake manifold and ditching the red vaccum lines they suck they get soft and my brake line collapsed already built the tps tester i did remove it when i was cleaning everything so mabey off? im gonna check to know anyway. but i broke the damn intake air temp sensor so gotta hit junkyard today hour drive sucks. then finish back together and see what happens
Last edited by Aaron Cake; 11-18-07 at 10:29 AM. Reason: Merge two posts
11-18-07, 10:58 AM
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Quit typing and not using capital letters when required. It's PAINFULL to read these posts/threads when written using small letters only and using terms like U for your, R for are etc. It's too stupid for words.
11-18-07, 03:24 PM
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PS, it's spelled 'painful' *****************
Oh, fudge! I've just gotta start proof reading after I type. You got me. Along with numerous other mispells in my other posts.
EDIT: eh, it's misspell, not mispell.
Oh, fudge! I've just gotta start proof reading after I type. You got me. Along with numerous other mispells in my other posts.
EDIT: eh, it's misspell, not mispell.
11-18-07, 06:47 PM
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Ok. Here is the latest. Found my intake leak!! It was the TID turbo intake duct where it connects to the turbo. Pulled it off put on some RTV. Reinstalled the ducting and no more vaccum leak. (Think I spelled that right)
lol Idle went to 1000 way down. Good start right? Tried setting the CAS once again i can only get it to extreme right and left adijusment to line up but lined up. Took a test drive 2 times. First time falled on its face as normal??? At 2500rpm's. Adjusted again and took off. First gear great quickly to 4000 and I shifted. Second gear, fell on its face at 2500 rpm's and so on. Tried again from first. And it fell on its face at 2500 rpm's? Back to driveway to see the timing still where I put it. Tried revving it up slowly and fuel cut at 4000rpm's. And I just got a FCD in and installed it think I put it in right. (Passenger kick panel to the atmospheric pressure sensor?) But if anyone knows different tell me please I'm gonna reasearch it right now. Still think my timing is off? Let me know. Thanks I'll look back here in just a couple minutes. Oh yeah, I want to check the TPS sensor. I looked at a write up on teamfc3s.com to make a tester. Made it but to no avail cannot get a light on the tester to come on at all? Anyone tried this? But did adjust it and got the idle down to 750 or so on my dash tacometer, sound ok ? Or was that bad?
lol Idle went to 1000 way down. Good start right? Tried setting the CAS once again i can only get it to extreme right and left adijusment to line up but lined up. Took a test drive 2 times. First time falled on its face as normal??? At 2500rpm's. Adjusted again and took off. First gear great quickly to 4000 and I shifted. Second gear, fell on its face at 2500 rpm's and so on. Tried again from first. And it fell on its face at 2500 rpm's? Back to driveway to see the timing still where I put it. Tried revving it up slowly and fuel cut at 4000rpm's. And I just got a FCD in and installed it think I put it in right. (Passenger kick panel to the atmospheric pressure sensor?) But if anyone knows different tell me please I'm gonna reasearch it right now. Still think my timing is off? Let me know. Thanks I'll look back here in just a couple minutes. Oh yeah, I want to check the TPS sensor. I looked at a write up on teamfc3s.com to make a tester. Made it but to no avail cannot get a light on the tester to come on at all? Anyone tried this? But did adjust it and got the idle down to 750 or so on my dash tacometer, sound ok ? Or was that bad?