RotarySupra

iTrader: (-1)

Ive searched,ive read alot of input on the taurus e-fan,but no one seems to run into this problem.i bought the Torqflo wiring kit from Autozone,ive follwed the instructions and installed it.as i was driving thru town yesterday i noticed my temp gauge went a a little over the half mark,so i turned it off before something bad happened.Now heres the what im trying to get outta the gurus

1.has anyone wired the taurus fan with this Torqflo kit?

2.if someone has used this kit,is there a diffrent way to wire this?whats the temp the probe will switch the fan on?

3.if this is working properly,wouldnt the fan would have turned on once the gauge went up a little over halfway?

4.would i be better off tapping into the the thermosensor behind the water pump housing instead of using the probe the kit came with?





any advice is greatly appreciated in advance.



Thanks

RotarySupra

iTrader: (-1)

someone also recomended the Torqflo electronic thermostat controller,as far as i was informed,it controls the fan to turn on at a certain temp? is the way to go?


Thanks

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Not familiar with the Torqflo unit...is it one of those "probe in the rad fins" things?

No matter what...since you've deviated from stock, it's now time to get a real temp gauge so you can see what's really going on.
The gauge "gets past half" doesn't cut it anymore- if this is a S5 gauge, it will reach the halfway mark at approximately 170° and STAY THERE until over 220°, when it finally begins to inch up again- it's more of a fancy idiot light than a real gauge.

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

I can't find any real information on anything torqflo makes. If you want to browse a large selection of switches and thermostats, go to www.summitracing.com and do a search for "fan switch". They carry 89 different ones.

My experience with the preset thermoswitches (usually thread in type) is that the claimed temperature switch point isn't always so precise. For instance, I have a switch I'm using right now that is supposed to come on at 195*, but actually switches on at about 203*. And that's with the switch threaded into the water pump housing.

CONS: not adjustable, no fan speed control (0 or 100%), current spikes, large temperature fluctuations

The next type will be the adjustable thermostatic switches, which usually have the probe you push into the radiator fins. Most of these seem to be pretty cheesy, and I've had a cheap flex-a-lite one fail on me in the middle of a drive. There are some better ones made by Hayden and others that use a thread in thermosensor too. I'm not sure if they all can do it, but the stock thermosensor under the oil filter may be able to be used in place of whatever switch the kit comes with.

CONS: no fan speed control (0 or 100%), current spikes, large temperature fluctuations (still only 1 switch point)

The last type is variable speed adjustable controllers. The SPAL-PWN-V3 (older model called the PWN too) is one of these, which allows the fan to switch on at 50% speed at one temp preset, then slowly ramp up to 100% if the temperature rises towards a second preset. This controller can defintely be used with the stock thermosensor. One of the other nice features is that this controller ramps up fan speed slowly whenever the fan is switched on. This gets rid of large current spikes that the other 2 types of switches create whenever the fan is switched on.

CONS: expensive ($100+)

The SPAL controller is what I'm going to be using next. It ought to give me stock-like temperature control, since the stock fan uses a clutch to vary the speed between 160* & 180*.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

RR88 seems to be pickier than I.
My efan wiring control (detailed here) has kept the indicated temp between 180° and 195° during the hottest, most traffic intensive driving I've encountered so far.

I don't consider 15° to be a "large temperature fluctuation" and would be loathe to spend $100 to narrow the range by what- half?

Not sure what you consider "stock-like temperature control" to be, but I don't think it's any better than what I get.

As for "current spikes"...you make that sound like it's a bad thing (is it a "current spike" when you use the electric window motors or turn on the headlights?).
With the stock S5 alternator- or, even better, a higher output FD alt- I see no indication, either in the voltmeter or the idle speed, when the fan kicks in.
I temporarily wired in an indicator light just to monitor fan operation, mainly because I couldn't hear or feel it when it activated.

The only "con" you list for the SPAL is price and for me that would be a real deal breaker given the performance of a far less expensive setup.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

The best way to do it is to switch it with a standalone if you have one. Any worthwhile one can do it.

AGreen

iTrader: (11)

You've already been given great advice, but a standalone... that may be a good option if you already have one, but for crap's sake don't go out and buy one just to control your E-fan.

I've had no problem with mine, but it's a little different than the two posted above.

I bought the Hayden wiring kit from Pep-Boys, but there's a catch. If you have AC, the diode in the harness will burn up within a week. When mine did, the fan just did not come on, and I overheated bad.

So, instead of that, I kept the wiring for the most part, but upgraded to dual relays. One for AC, one for the temp switch. The wiring schematic is shown here:

Look at step 5
https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-gen-archive-72/diy-electric-fan-shroud-808292/

Anyways, back to your question. From what it sounds like, you've probably got one of those radiator fin probes. If yours has the option, you can remove the switch from the probe (it unscrews) and drill a small hole in the thermostat housing, tap it, then screw the switch in. Don't drill into coolant, just find some meaty metal somewhere and drill/tap it.

That should get the fan going sooner. Before you overheat it again, make sure the fan works by connecting the two wires at the sensor, and see if the fan kicks on. If not, your wiring may be wrong.

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

didn't read whole thread but if it's a simple thermo switch/relay you might be able to adjust the turn on point for the fan with as little screw on the relay. lets you adjust fan from running all the time to 180-225*F.

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

By stock-like temperature control, I mean what I've had with the stock fan and my Koyo radiator: 180-185* solid. The stock fan varies in speed, rather than just having one or two speeds.

You're using a quality, factory-made 2-speed fan relay & a 2-temperature thermoswitch, which I'm sure would cost a lot brand new. I'm assuming you got them from a junkyard, which brings your cost down, but it doesn't make them any less of quality parts. The biggest problem I have with 90% of the fan switch kits out there is that they're poorly made, and I don't have much confidence that they won't fail on me. I've already had one do it.

Also, your setup kicks on at low speed first, then has the option of running at full speed if the temp gets high enough. There are no aftermarket fan controllers that I've seen that can do that, besides the few that also allow the speed to vary between 50% & 100% (such as the SPAL controller).

And of course you're not seeing dramatic current spikes affecting voltage; your fan comes on at low speed first, which draws less power overall, and takes less to initially spin up. Monitoring voltage with my Rtek, I see about a 0.8V dip in voltage when my 14 AMP fan kicks on at 100%, then it creeps back up towards the level it was at before once the fan is at full speed. If I can reduce that startup draw by half and put less strain on my alternator, that's great.

I'd be happy with the setup you have, but it also requires you to have a 2-speed fan like the taurus unit. Not everyone is using that same fan, or one similar, and in my case, that's not what I'm using. It looks like I'm only a little bit pickier than you anyway, hah. You're using a setup that's only one step down from what I will be. There are still much cheaper, and less effective ways to get it done.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

All that is true.

IMO, any thermoswitch controlled setup is better than those awful probe in the matrix things.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

I don't know the details of the new generation of Spal PWM, but the original did not soft start the fan. It started at 100%, then ramped the fan down to 50%. After that, the fan varied between 50% and 100% as called by the temp sender. An A/C compressor signal overrides the system by calling for 100% fan. The unit was criticized for that 100% star-tup on this board.

And truthfully, wouldn't it be a voltage 'dip', not a 'spike'?

I think the whole 'voltage spike' discussion is the result of misunderstanding of electricity. The correct terminology is inrush current. All motors have this characteristic. Hell, even incandescent light bulbs have a high inrush current-a 'voltage spike' on this board.

Our fans do not require high torque on start-up, so there is no real need to manage the inrush current. Properly size your wire, make sure you have a battery.

That's about it.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

"Voltage dip"..."inrush current"?

Where's the testosterone there?
Now, "voltage spike", there's a term a real man can get into- "Yeah, I had some voltage spikes but I took care of 'em!".

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

The new V3 version of the SPAL-PWM soft starts the fan. I know the old one didn't. It has some other new features too, in addition to a better case design. Seems like they've worked out the bugs from the previous model.

And where did you see "voltage spikes"? I said "current spikes" referring the same current inrush, as you called it. It takes more power to spin the fan up to speed than it does to maintain it, which results in the fan pulling a lot more current initially, and therefore system-wide voltage dips.

RotarySupra

iTrader: (-1)

thanks for all the help and advice guys,al of it was awesome.ill be looking into all the products i suggested.Thanks again.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Thanks for that info regarding PWM. I thought that the new version might have the soft start, but had not been interested in the PWM. I am gaining interest, because I am about to change my Taurus Fan to the Mighty Lincoln Mark IV 18" fan. The newest model of this fan is one speed and is controlled by a factory PWM controller. The Spal PWM would be ideal for controlling the monster. I really don't need the monster max airflow for cooling, just for a/c.

104* here yesterday.

I used 'voltage spike' intentionally, for two reasons:
1. This is usually the way it is represented on these boards thus if anyone searches, they will find this discussion, and
2. You did not measure current. Your rtek measures/logs voltage. That voltage drop is what you reported.

You invented the term 'current spike'. I soft-served you the correct term. I didn't just call it that. The correct technical term is inrush current. Google it. And it is not a big deal, electrically, in our system.

The real issue is the lack of idle speed control on our FC's when using any efan. No one would be discussing this if the idle speed didn't drop causing the car stumble.

Factory systems sense the fan engagement and make some sort of compensation to maintain idle speed; our ecu's use the BAC system, but the factory did not allow for an efan-obviously. The Mazda design made inputs to add duty cycles to the BAC IIRC for power steering, A/C, headlights, rear window defroster and maybe one or two other inputs.

The only time I notice idle speed dip is when the car is idling and the A/C compressor kicks in. On my setup, this engages simultaneously both the a/c compressor and the high speed efan -with the resulting alternator load and idle speed drop. The BAC is compensating for the A/C compressor, but not the additional load of the fan. If I unplug the efan to test, the a/c load is completely compensated for. The whole thing might not even be a problem for me if I wasn't idling at 600 rpm.

A more sophisticated approach might be to let the efan have one of the ECU inputs that control the BAC therefore maintaining idle speed. Maybe give the fan the input used for the rear window defogger? Then when the fan activates, the BAC will introduce additional idle air and maintain the idle speed. Just thinking out loud.

I appreciate the discussion and the information.

-jack

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

No one should waste their time and money on the SPAL FAN-PWM. After having mine on my car for two years and pissing around with trying to make it work, I will be going back to the $5 relay switched via the ECU very soon.

It just doesn't work. Maybe if you use a temperature sensor specifically for the FAN-PWM (don't tap the stock sensor) it will help. Maybe if you cut off all the silly China "WeatherPack" connectors it will work. Maybe if you ground the unit directly (bypassing the connectors) it will work. But I have tried all but the first and it still is very erratic.

The circuit is very poorly designed and SPAL has only gone about 50% of the way towards fixing it last time I spoke with them. Mistakes in the design are those that even a first year EE would not make.

So in accordance with the above, if you want to try the FAN-PWM and have it probably work, do the following:

1. Add a temperature sensor specifically for the device. As it's inputs are not isolated, it is not very good at reading the stock sensor or one shared by an ECU/gauge.

2. Replace crappy connectors with something that doesn't suck.

3. Cut ground wire off connector and ground directly to the chassis via as short a wire as you can.

4. I hear the new units have a separate signal ground, so ground that in a separate location from the main ground but still keep the wire length very short.

5. Set your low point at around 78-80 degrees, and the high point around 90 degrees. This will depend on your fan.

Honestly, after screwing with this thing for so long, I'm more then happy to back to the simple on/off relay that works perfectly and kept my car at thermostat temp even in 40 degree heat.

IMPORTANT EDIT: OK, I've been reading the instruction PDF for the version 3 FAN-PWM and it seems there are some improvements. The crappy connectors may have been replaced, the status LED is better and of course there is a signal ground now. Programming is a bit different but there is no gain setting. So it would be unfair of me to say that the V3 is as bad as the V2 because I have not tried it. If SPAL sends me one for free, I may give it a go. But until then I'm happy with a relay that actually works. I'm sick of having to watch my temperature gauge.

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

Haha, ok, I'll call it current inrush. But I could honestly care less what the correct technical term is. It is well known that when an efan cycles on, it pulls a large amount of current, which can temporarily cause a decrease in current going to other systems in the car, such as where my Rtek measures voltage. Ohms Law (V=I*R) states that the relationship between voltage and current is proportional, so a drop in voltage at one location corresponds to a drop in available current at the same point. I'm talking about two different things: the large current draw (inrush!) of the efan and the associated dip in current/voltage at other locations in the car.

I had read the same negative reviews of the old PWM, and also read through some of your posts about the trouble getting it setup properly. I already plan on having a very short ground wire, just because of the location I will be mounting it in, so I'm not expecting to run into the temperature switching issues like you did (I hope). If the stock temp sensor seems to give this new unit a problem, I will pick up SPAL's sensor. I already have a tapped location on the thermostat cover that'll make it very simple to install, if needed. The reviews of this new unit seem to be good so far, so hopefully it works painlessly. I'll definitely be using that in-car status LED for some extra peace of mind. I'll also post a review of my own once I get it all set up.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

How would one do this?
"Let the efan have one of the ECU inputs that control the BAC", I mean.
For instance, I no longer have PS or AC- both of which would cause the BAC to activate- but I'm clueless as to how/where the ECU gets the signal telling it that either of those two systems are in operation.

What kind of signal would the ECU be getting from either of those two systems?

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

You stated My point is that this is not a big deal. Have you monitored the voltage changes when you turn on the headlights, the rear defogger, hit the brake lights, power windows etc? You are describing a situation that doesn't need a solution, AKA borrowing trouble.

This is really the way automotive electrical systems work. The battery is a 'buffer' (capacitance) that allows the voltage regulator to adjust to voltage differences in a controlled manner.

To see how this really works, you should see how my volt gauge jumped around when my defective yellow-top optima was installed. WOW! fan on, volts snapped to 8v then jumped back up to 14.1, then after the fan was full steam the volts jumped to 15+. Then back down to 14.1. When the fan turned off, the volts jumped to 15+, then back down to 14.1. ANY electrical variation in demand made a similar dip, spike and stabilization, including brake lights, turn signals, antenna retraction, window operation etc. Put back my new battery every thing is smooth and groovy.

You may simply have too much information, like the S5 owner (me!) who installs an accurate temp gauge and proceeds to worry about all the temperature changes he sees on the gauge.

Nothing wrong with the concept of the PWM controller, but don't expect it to defy the design of the circuit. The inrush current can be 3-5 times the running amps. So, if your 14 amp fan has an inrush of 42-70 amps, the new inrush might be 21-35 amps, but the larger amp draw will occur over a much longer time, likely 4 times as long. You will still see a voltage dip in your logs.

Good luck and would you record some of those voltage logs before the PWM and after the installation as well? For my own curiosity and in the general name of RXScience?

Thx and good luck,

Jack

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

Fair enough. I'm sure I have too much information for my own good, as well. The Rtek 2.x is a fun toy.

I'll defintely record some before and after logs to compare voltage, RPM, temperature & fan status. Hell, I might even wire in an ammeter I have, just for you.

Some of the PWM-V3 features for anyone that's curious. This is from a SPAL distributor's website (http://www.jaycorptech.com/showprodu...roductid=155):

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Like this? https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=28

I'm making a visit to my Bro's windtunnel/fan testing facility later this month or early next month. I will be testing the Taurus 2-speed and the Mark IV fan. Data collected will be rpm, starting amperage, running amperage, cfm and static pressure. Should make for an interesting evening.

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

Yes, exactly like that. Your gauge even looks to be nearly identical to the one I have . I've used it in the past to measure current changes when different electrical loads were placed on the system (like you were mentioning). I didn't bother to write any numbers down, but I seem to remember the headlights having a pretty substantial draw.

Anyhow, whenever the OP comes back around, his head is liable to explode from the e-fan information overload that is this thread.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Yeah, that is likely so. Maybe we should pm him to wrap his head with duct tape?

Im not even sure we answered his original question.