Shadowscreed

iTrader: (1)

So here's my crazy idea or at last the. want to turn my n/a 6 port S4 13B into a 13BT 6 port instead of going for a 4 port TII. My theory is to set everything up using my stock n/a block with an Rtek ECU, with the S4 TII UIM and LIM, S4 Turbo and TMIC and downpipe. I need to find a way to match the 6 port to the TII manifold. Though I may have to go Custom with this. To prevent overboosting i plan to setup the turbo to spool at 4,000rpm since the Auxiliary ports open at 3,800rpm. though I suppose that if I removed the actuators the auxiliary ports would always be open and also prevent the overboost.

If anyone can help me to come to a final conclusion with this I would greatly appreciate it.

farberio

iTrader: (7)

You are treading into uncharted territory here, I recommend being very careful.

I also recommend searching.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Search for Aaron Cake's "Tina" project.

He's slightly ahead of you.

jerd_hambone

Remove the ports. Mod the LIM. It's been done countless times.

Research is your friend.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

It would be an act of engineering and machining pain-in-the-***'ness to make the aux port system work with the TII lower intake. You'd have to add all the hardware and actuators to run the sleeves, as well as rework the secondary runners. And gain nothing, because the turbo will then not fit.

If you want a working aux port 6 port turbo engine, stick with the NA lower intake manifold. Build/modify a tubular turbo manifold to move the the turbo up and out away from the lower. Exact procedure depends on the turbo you intend to run. Then if space allows, just use the aux port actuators and run them via boost, controlled with a solenoid on you standalone (no RTek). If space doesn't allow, get creative with a bit of bicycle brake cable and remote mount the actuator.

Forget all this "spool turbo at 4000 RPM" stuff, it means nothing. Turbochargers spool according to engine load. The EMS is tuned to supply the proper A/F ratios and timing at all points in the map.

From the FAQ:


Can I swap a Turbo engine/Jspec engine/13BT/etc into my Non Turbo?
Yes, check these links:
https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-gen-archive-72/s4-na-turbo-swap-details-813825/
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/ro...conversion.htm
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/2n...o_s4_swap.html
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/2n...o_s5_swap.html

How do I add a turbo to my NA 13B?
What Turbo kits can I add onto my non turbo RX-7?
There are no longer kits formally made at the time of this post, however there are companies from time to time that do make available non turbo to Turbo Kits. Because most of these companies stop building the kits, or go out of business in short time, it is impossible to keep active links for them.

Most people that turbo a non turbo make their own kits:
Using the stock TII turbo, exhaust manifold with spacer, NA intakes and NA ECU:
http://www.aaroncake.net/rx-7/naturbo.htm
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...threadid=88540

Aaron Cake's "Project Tina":
http://www.aaroncake.net/rx-7/projecttina/

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...threadid=88758
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=124232
http://users2.ev1.net/~ccoutts/turbo..._a_project.htm

Using the stock TII turbo, exhaust manifold, intakes, ECU:
http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread.php?t=37694

How to port match the TII lower intake to fit the 6 port block, allowing you to bolt on all stock TII turbo stuff to an NA engine:
http://www.aaroncake.net/rx-7/4PortLIMTo6Port.htm

Turbo-NA Forum:
http://www.aaroncake.net/forum/forum...urbocharged+NA

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

not to mention they would hit the turbo without relocating it, with a high compression n/a engine you REALLY do not need the 5/6th port actuators anyways with the smaller stock and even hybrid turbos..

many people have done just this.

lim_fc3c

iTrader: (4)

I would like to see a working 6 port turbo with the euro style butterfly aux ports since the actuators are on the other side of the manifold. But then again... really isn't worth it unless you want something to blab about.

Shadowscreed

iTrader: (1)

I could relocate the turbo to the driver's side of the block, I have no PS and no a/c compressor, just open space. but the would require extra piping and I want to do the TMIC though I have a SBR GT-50 turbo, and Greddy FMIC laying around.

Black Knight RX7 FC3S

iTrader: (7)

relocating the turbo to the driver side is a waste of time and money. Thats a **** ton of fabricating and depending on how big the turbo manifold runners are, going to lag like crazy.

You can move the turbo foward more by fabricating your own turbo manifolds. Moving the placement of the turbo forward enough to not hit the LIM

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

find a cartech manifold, it fits a real T4 turbo WITH the NA intake AND 6 port actuators. pipe in an IC, turbo injectors, fuel pump, ecu of your choice and you're done.

than manifold puts the turbo low and to the rear, basically it'll fit with all the emissions equipment too.

Shadowscreed

iTrader: (1)

I'm removing all emissions equipment, as well as a BAC delete, thermowax delete, and blocking off the Pulsation Dampener.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I agree that once under boost, you don't need the working aux ports. However since we do most of our driving out of boost, having the aux ports open all the time just makes the car lifeless in regular driving, exactly the same as wiring them open in an NA application. Which is why I'd suggest that instead of having them wide open when turbocharging the engine, that they be kept closed. Or that the sleeve be welded up to cover up approximately half the aux port, then epoxied into place in the housing. Assuming a smallish turbo and modest power goals, of course. Big turbos and port jobs are a different story...

Maintaining the working aux port system is absolutely worth it for a car that is driven daily. Which is one of the reasons that the engine I built for my Cosmo will have working aux ports with a small ball bearing turbocharger. This I see is the ultimate evolution of the turbo NA setup. Excellent low end torque (there is a huge difference between driving a car with wired open aux ports as opposed to one with them working properly), better fuel economy, and a small responsive turbo sized for low end and midrange. My goal with the Cosmo is perhaps different than with an RX-7 where the feeling you want is a corner carving spots car with an engine that loves to be wound out...but also consider that most driving is in traffic, where the other 99% of driving dictates how fun the car really is.

That plan is a little...unrealistic. Plumbing the high temperature thick exhaust manifold runners around the entire engine bay is a little insane.

Google doesn't know much about that turbo other than it seems to be similar to the T04E 50 trim and is aimed at the EVO market. Meaning that the turbine side is almost guaranteed to be way too small.

Because they are just so easy to find.

If you block off the pulsation damper, fuel will no longer flow through the rails.

Why oh why would anyone EVER remove the BAC valve and remove the cold start thermowax?! There are no gains, zero. Only losses in drivability. There is absolutely no valid reason to every remove them. PERIOD.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

you would think, but understandably you have a GT40. i've built a few high compression hybrid setups and the boost is almost instantaneous above 3k RPMs. you really won't gain much even with the port actuators below that.

SpikeDerailed

iTrader: (7)

I cant speak for you guys in canada with real winters, but here even at 16*(f) the bacv is enough for the car to start and maintain a proper idle dead cold. I agree the bacv is necessary, but i find the thermowax to not be.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

usually i find it reversed.

i rarely find a car with a real decently functioning BAC valve anymore but the thermowax usually still works and helps maintain the idle until the engine is fully warmed up.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

that is the problem, but it wasn't that bad. i think turblown might have made an NA-turbo manifold as well, although i'm pretty sure that would be out of budget, as its costs money

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Even with stock turbos, I find that running without functional aux ports makes the car drive like Geo Metro. Takes fare more throttle and clutch slippage to get the car going, mileage suffers, vacuum signal is weaker and in general, anything expected of massive port duration pretty much happens. Now others may be far less sensitive to this, and I think part of my sensitivity comes from the fact that I drive a Honda Insight and the electric motor provides immediate torque from 0 RPM on up. But it does illustrate the point that there is a big hole in the torque band without functional ports. When the pedal is on the floor it's a non-issue. That's not what I'm referring to though. What you gain below 3500RPM with the actuators working is a far more responsive engine that doesn't need large amounts of throttle to drive comfortably. It's like the difference between parallel and sequential turbos on the FD.

Now I guess one has to compare the large amount of space issues created by having working ports to the easiness of just bolting on a modded TII lower intake. It's a packaging nightmare. Even more so in my Cosmo because the frame rails are 5" closer together than the FC!

With a standalone, absolutely. On the stock ECU, the BAC is far less useful on cold starts. I also remove the thermowax when going to a standalone with BAC control.

Shadowscreed

iTrader: (1)

I'm pretty sure that I have the following issues:
BAC doesn't work
Thermowax doesn't work
My TPS needs to be replaced, I idle at 1500-2000rpm at startup and once warm, I've tested this theory by pushing the plastic stopper in and my idle is normal.
All of my vacuum lines need to be replaced

So I figure removing the BAC and Thermowax won't affect anything considering the fact I live in Tucson, Arizona and our record low on the temp scale is 22 degrees Fahrenheit.

As for blocking off the Pulsation dampener, I'm talking about the little plastic piece on the end of the fuel rail, mine is cracked and I know they have a tendency to fail. My friend replaced his with a bolt because it was leaking and now he has no issues and it runs better than before.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

perhaps i'm more tuned to the other way around. all the hybrid setups i have built feel very responsive and much easier to take off from a dead stop with when compared to my series 4 TII 8.5:1 engine with 75k miles on it with the T70 non BB turbo strapped to the side which comes on at a whopping 5k RPMs like a light switch, not an ounce before. with the 9lb flywheel taking off from stops is a chore.

so in retrospect these setups that i have put together that performed better than a 100% bone stock FD in perfect working order, i hardly found argument worthy of trying to gain even more response below 3k RPMs where you realistically plan on doing what? pulling trees out of the ground like a V8 truck? even on the freeway i never drove any 7 below 3k because even n/a's with fully functioning 5/6th ports feel luggy down there.

maybe it will work, but i also believe the twin charger setup i'm working on would do it one up(if i ever find the time to actually finish it). i just don't believe there is as much to gain down there as is aimed at. the stock turbos did virtually the same with the twin scroll which none of the setups i mentioned had a functioning twin scroll turbo. so in essence that would be a MUCH easier alternative to get the velocity up and turbo spooled sooner making power earlier, or use 4 port irons.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I'm making the comparison to the engine the car started with, a presumably working 6 port NA. Opening up all the ports means that one might as well install TII low compression rotors. What's really the point then of building a turbo-NA setup if the aux ports and higher compression isn't taken advantage of, if the power levels don't necessitate the large ports?

Isn't about 90% of around town driving done at around 3000 RPM and below? In the city I'm in 4th gear at ~2000 RPM.

I've been following your twin charger setup and waiting for updates on the project. I think it's an interesting exercise. It's also going to be interesting when I get my working aux port 6 port turbo NA engine on the Cosmo up and running. With a small ball bearing turbo, very long intake runners, functional aux ports and conservative exhausts, it should drive like a kitten through the low and midrange, making torque like a V6 when asked.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i try to avoid bogging the car much, the old tired trannies chatter when you lug them around as they seem to prefer the mid to upper range.

was hoping to have more time this winter to work on getting the mounting bracket and flanges done for the SC, fortunately yet unfortunately i'm still too busy to get to it so the built SC is sitting on the wall in the office still collecting dust. i really want to get it done but at the same time i rarely drive the TII anymore, maybe once or twice a month or for long road trips. setback was partially the thick plate i am making the flanges from, my torch can't cut it... so i have been looking into a TIG/plasma setup but haven't found anything worthwhile locally yet.

another issue i ran into is the snout is just too long so i have been on the lookout for a short nose snout for the eaton but haven't had much luck there either. i don't really want to run a 4" spacer to the SC pulley off the crank. cheap eatons haven't been available lately, suppose they're getting harder to come by, at least the short snout versions aren't.

SpikeDerailed

iTrader: (7)

What all did they even come on? I only knew of them available on some older Jags. I had been on the lookout and gave up about 2 years ago finding the short snout setup.

Shadowscreed

iTrader: (1)

Ok so here is an update on everything.

I've recently acquired an 88 Vert that I'm stripping down and using for parts and selling what I don't need. I will be scrapping the shell, sadly, it has cancer. However I've salvaged the complete drivetrain, as well as some nice KYB Gas-a-Just struts to put on my FC since I've still got the original AAS suspension, and all four corners are blown, and also salvaged tails and headlights, interior pieces, aluminum hood, trunk, etc. If anyone needs anything feel free to ask if I have it, and give a reasonable offer.

However, the engine is for me, it is currently of unknown condition and since I have blown coolant seals, I'm going to pull my engine and test the one from the vert. Hopefully it is in better condition considering oil is in it, as well as some fresh coolant that poured out of the engine looking clean and pure. If the engine is good then my current engine will become a test engine for this project.