N/A massive trouble, thinking of URGENT T2 swap, need some input.
11-25-03, 08:59 PM
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N/A massive trouble, thinking of URGENT T2 swap, need some input.
Greetings one and all. Its been forever since I've been around here, but I'm much obliged to many of you for your help in the past.... 
I'm in big trouble. My one and only daily driver RX-7 (the 1989 S5 N/A 5-speed 'vert listed in my sig, if the sig still exists) has decided to completely give in the ghost. I am 90% sure the engine needs a rebuild, and 100% sure its locked up so bad the starter won't even crank it. I was taking my little sister out for coffee, and it started hard (low compression or flooded injectors), and then as it reved from start I heard a click and the engine just spun down making this sizzling metallic sound, and when I try to restart it I just get this wonderous "clunk". But I'm not interested in throwing money into this N/A anymore. I am ready and willing to do a complete turbo swap myself, in my garage, with a few friends and I'll rent the major tools I need. The questions I have are as follows:
1. I am VERY MUCH interested in swapping a 3rd Gen 13B-REW Turbo instead of an S4/S5 TII engine if at all possible. The majority of the info I have read (which is all I could find) seems to say that such a thing is entirely possible if I pretty much can find an entire 3rd Gen for the parts, ECU, etc... pretty much the same as a full powertrain TII swap which is my other option. I have a girl (potential -friend) flying in in two weeks that I'm really hoping to have this car running for, black 2-seat convertible and all. ;-)
Q: Does anybody think I'm a total moron for wanting to do this, and a total psycho for thinking I can do it inside of a few (1-2) weeks of full-time work? Should I give up this dream and just buy a running TII, swap it out, and wash my hands of it?
2. Either way, I hope to completely rebuild (rather, have someone such as pineapple racing) rebuild the engine and as will most likely be necessary, the tranny too, before I swap it. I'm not interested (nor do I have the $$ or time) for a kick-*** porting job and all that **** as much as I'd like to be, although I am definitely going to put 3mm apex seals in it since I know I am hard on my engines. The price Pineapple charges for a rebuild is $2700... and I've heard good comments on their engines.
Q: Who else should I examine for a well-done rebuild, and what should I look out for?
3. Q: How do I tell if a used turbocharger is good or bad? I've never dealt with a turbo before, and as this is a pretty vital component and since most likely I'll be stuck with the stock setup for a while, I'd like to know how to tell if a used stock turbo is still good.
4. Last Q: is it wiser for me to fix my old, possibly really screwed up N/A and then sell it or should I sell it for parts as is, and what can I reasonably expect to get for my current working but aging powertrain?
I have done many many searches on this topic in the past, but have never been forced to actually put that knowledge into practice... I'm hoping to get away with spending not more than $3-5k for this process, assuming I do most of the work myself. Before you all jump out of your skins that I'm asking these questions and still expecting to do my own work: I've pretty much stripped the entire block down for intake and exhaust problems before (see previous threads of mine) and had no trouble once it all went back together ;-) so I'm pretty sure that if I'm careful and get good parts to begin with I can do this engine swap myself too. I just need some experienced vets' wisdom on the best course of action. I'm in a bit of a time crunch too which is seriously unfortunate.
Thanks VERY much for your patience and answers, and I will be very involved in this thread and similar others as I find them again, so don't feel like you are throwing your knowledge to the wind!!!
Peace ....
I'm in big trouble. My one and only daily driver RX-7 (the 1989 S5 N/A 5-speed 'vert listed in my sig, if the sig still exists) has decided to completely give in the ghost. I am 90% sure the engine needs a rebuild, and 100% sure its locked up so bad the starter won't even crank it. I was taking my little sister out for coffee, and it started hard (low compression or flooded injectors), and then as it reved from start I heard a click and the engine just spun down making this sizzling metallic sound, and when I try to restart it I just get this wonderous "clunk". But I'm not interested in throwing money into this N/A anymore. I am ready and willing to do a complete turbo swap myself, in my garage, with a few friends and I'll rent the major tools I need. The questions I have are as follows:
1. I am VERY MUCH interested in swapping a 3rd Gen 13B-REW Turbo instead of an S4/S5 TII engine if at all possible. The majority of the info I have read (which is all I could find) seems to say that such a thing is entirely possible if I pretty much can find an entire 3rd Gen for the parts, ECU, etc... pretty much the same as a full powertrain TII swap which is my other option. I have a girl (potential -friend) flying in in two weeks that I'm really hoping to have this car running for, black 2-seat convertible and all. ;-)
Q: Does anybody think I'm a total moron for wanting to do this, and a total psycho for thinking I can do it inside of a few (1-2) weeks of full-time work? Should I give up this dream and just buy a running TII, swap it out, and wash my hands of it?
2. Either way, I hope to completely rebuild (rather, have someone such as pineapple racing) rebuild the engine and as will most likely be necessary, the tranny too, before I swap it. I'm not interested (nor do I have the $$ or time) for a kick-*** porting job and all that **** as much as I'd like to be, although I am definitely going to put 3mm apex seals in it since I know I am hard on my engines. The price Pineapple charges for a rebuild is $2700... and I've heard good comments on their engines.
Q: Who else should I examine for a well-done rebuild, and what should I look out for?
3. Q: How do I tell if a used turbocharger is good or bad? I've never dealt with a turbo before, and as this is a pretty vital component and since most likely I'll be stuck with the stock setup for a while, I'd like to know how to tell if a used stock turbo is still good.
4. Last Q: is it wiser for me to fix my old, possibly really screwed up N/A and then sell it or should I sell it for parts as is, and what can I reasonably expect to get for my current working but aging powertrain?
I have done many many searches on this topic in the past, but have never been forced to actually put that knowledge into practice... I'm hoping to get away with spending not more than $3-5k for this process, assuming I do most of the work myself. Before you all jump out of your skins that I'm asking these questions and still expecting to do my own work: I've pretty much stripped the entire block down for intake and exhaust problems before (see previous threads of mine) and had no trouble once it all went back together ;-) so I'm pretty sure that if I'm careful and get good parts to begin with I can do this engine swap myself too. I just need some experienced vets' wisdom on the best course of action. I'm in a bit of a time crunch too which is seriously unfortunate.
Thanks VERY much for your patience and answers, and I will be very involved in this thread and similar others as I find them again, so don't feel like you are throwing your knowledge to the wind!!!
Peace ....
11-25-03, 10:26 PM
#2
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
The Third gen 13B-REW is a very difficult installation, and not for the average do-it-yourselfer. If cost or fabrication is any sort of an issue then a BREW swap should be avoided. Most people spend around $10K to get a 13BREW running correctly in a FC. At that price you are in 20B territory (and the 20B a much simpler swap).
In addition, again unless cost is no issue what so ever, I doubt that you could even get all the parts you need to make a 13BREW work in a 2nd gen in just two weeks, well alone have it running and tuned. And there is no way in hell that you could do the swap for under $5k. The 13BREW motor alone un-modified to work in a FC would be around $2000-2500 typically for a used Jspec. And it would be even more difficult to get a stock ECU to run it in a FC without re-wiring the whole front on the car. In fact it would be easier to use a aftermarket ECU and run every wire it needs instead.
If you must have something like that a 13B-RE would be a better choice although still probably above the average shade tree mechanic.
In addition, again unless cost is no issue what so ever, I doubt that you could even get all the parts you need to make a 13BREW work in a 2nd gen in just two weeks, well alone have it running and tuned. And there is no way in hell that you could do the swap for under $5k. The 13BREW motor alone un-modified to work in a FC would be around $2000-2500 typically for a used Jspec. And it would be even more difficult to get a stock ECU to run it in a FC without re-wiring the whole front on the car. In fact it would be easier to use a aftermarket ECU and run every wire it needs instead.
If you must have something like that a 13B-RE would be a better choice although still probably above the average shade tree mechanic.
11-25-03, 11:39 PM
#3
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
IN your situation, here are a few options, as I see them:
QUICK and CHEAP:
-used NA motor, drop in, plug up, and drive. Probably not what you wanted to hear.
-used s5 t2 motor, with ecu, wiring harness (or adapt an NA s5 harness to work), boost sensor, and afm (your NA one can be used in the interim until you find the right one, just dont raise too much hell), throttle cable, hood, etc. Drop in, plug up, and drive. You can use your NA drivetrain for a short period of time, if you aren';t too hard on it. I am doing this now.
CHEAP but not quick:
-used s4 t2 motor, swap over sensors to s5, a bunch of bull, don't try it.
QUICK and RELIABLE but not cheap:
-get a rebuilt s5 NA motor from someone (like me ), bolt it in, and drive, or have someone do the installation. Later, when you have more time, sell this to someone and go whatever direction you want, or just be happy and go on with life.
RELIABLE but not quick or cheap:
-obtain s5 t2 motor, rebuild it, install it as a conversion with or without drivetrain.
Exhorbitantly expensive for no real reason, forget quick or reliable:
-13BRE or 13BREW swap, 20B swap, etc.
QUICK and CHEAP:
-used NA motor, drop in, plug up, and drive. Probably not what you wanted to hear.
-used s5 t2 motor, with ecu, wiring harness (or adapt an NA s5 harness to work), boost sensor, and afm (your NA one can be used in the interim until you find the right one, just dont raise too much hell), throttle cable, hood, etc. Drop in, plug up, and drive. You can use your NA drivetrain for a short period of time, if you aren';t too hard on it. I am doing this now.
CHEAP but not quick:
-used s4 t2 motor, swap over sensors to s5, a bunch of bull, don't try it.
QUICK and RELIABLE but not cheap:
-get a rebuilt s5 NA motor from someone (like me
), bolt it in, and drive, or have someone do the installation. Later, when you have more time, sell this to someone and go whatever direction you want, or just be happy and go on with life.RELIABLE but not quick or cheap:
-obtain s5 t2 motor, rebuild it, install it as a conversion with or without drivetrain.
Exhorbitantly expensive for no real reason, forget quick or reliable:
-13BRE or 13BREW swap, 20B swap, etc.
11-26-03, 01:25 AM
#4
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Okay after further (non-panicky) research I have decided that yes, I was smoking weed 
to think that I can do a 13B-REW swap in the time and money frame desired (thanks Icemark for some nice hard facts to assist the opinions that are out there). And yes, a 20B looks pretty schweet instead. 
Now, to get fully serious about my options, I'll comment on a few as listed by hypntyz7:
Yes, I had thought about that. But if I stick with an NA, I'll just get the one I have rebuilt or something. I have serious doubts about its internals after the noise it made and the fact that it won't (now) even turn at all. Plus finding a healthy S5 NA I could just drop in doesn't seem to be any cheaper or more available than getting a rebuilt S5 NA and coring out what I have.
As mentioned above, one avenue I may be forced to take. If I do this the turbo will probably never happen, realistically, as it will take me forever to recover from this added debt alone.
My other (maximally desired) option. Would most likely do this including the drivetrain, as I'm assuming that I'll have a wrecked-but-decent-engined 89-91 TII to start off with. THAT is the (very) long shot here. It seems (from what I can tell) to be the only cost-effective way of doing this. But I'm not opposed to finding a good-condition TII long block + ECU only and dropping that in place of what I have too, if -- as it seems -- it will drop right in and I can plan to rebuild and upgrade everything at my leisure later, when I've recouped the money I'm going to put on my credit cards to fix this in the first place.
Debt sucks but I have no choice. My car = a job. No car = no job.
One more thing: hypntyz7 : on your website you mentioned that an 89-91 'vert NA ECU will run a TII engine... is this really true (ie. did you mean to say that or was it an oversight) and doesn't the ECU do some sort of wastegate controlling that will need to be setup too or is that triggered somehow by the same math that would have done the 6-PI system on the NA? I'm confused about how that would hook up, and I would suspect that the harness plugs would be seriously different. Please clarify this for me as it could make a big difference in my options - the ECU/harness being a significant and expensive part of the entire package and all.
to think that I can do a 13B-REW swap in the time and money frame desired (thanks Icemark for some nice hard facts to assist the opinions that are out there). And yes, a 20B looks pretty schweet instead. Now, to get fully serious about my options, I'll comment on a few as listed by hypntyz7:
Originally posted by hypntyz7
QUICK and CHEAP:
-used NA motor, drop in, plug up, and drive. Probably not what you wanted to hear.
QUICK and CHEAP:
-used NA motor, drop in, plug up, and drive. Probably not what you wanted to hear.
QUICK and RELIABLE but not cheap:
-get a rebuilt s5 NA motor from someone (like me ), bolt it in, and drive, or have someone do the installation. Later, when you have more time, sell this to someone and go whatever direction you want, or just be happy and go on with life.
-get a rebuilt s5 NA motor from someone (like me
), bolt it in, and drive, or have someone do the installation. Later, when you have more time, sell this to someone and go whatever direction you want, or just be happy and go on with life.
RELIABLE but not quick or cheap:
-obtain s5 t2 motor, rebuild it, install it as a conversion with or without drivetrain.
-obtain s5 t2 motor, rebuild it, install it as a conversion with or without drivetrain.
Debt sucks but I have no choice. My car = a job. No car = no job.
One more thing: hypntyz7 : on your website you mentioned that an 89-91 'vert NA ECU will run a TII engine... is this really true (ie. did you mean to say that or was it an oversight) and doesn't the ECU do some sort of wastegate controlling that will need to be setup too or is that triggered somehow by the same math that would have done the 6-PI system on the NA? I'm confused about how that would hook up, and I would suspect that the harness plugs would be seriously different. Please clarify this for me as it could make a big difference in my options - the ECU/harness being a significant and expensive part of the entire package and all.
11-26-03, 01:33 AM
#5
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
One more thing: hypntyz7 : on your website you mentioned that an 89-91 'vert NA ECU will run a TII engine... is this really true (ie. did you mean to say that or was it an oversight)
Guys like reted and the like have actually probably done some testing, and can give you a 100% yes or no, but at this point, this is just the word as it has been told to me for years now. It makes sense, seeing as how all jspec verts were turbo, and the vert is the only one with the odd ecu in the US, so they just decided not to fool with making a seperate one for us, and gave us the turbo ecu.
and doesn't the ECU do some sort of wastegate controlling that will need to be setup too or is that triggered somehow by the same math that would have done the 6-PI system on the NA?
and I would suspect that the harness plugs would be seriously different.
11-26-03, 11:01 PM
#7
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
One more time, for those just getting involved, the whole writeup is at www.rotaryresurrection.com/t2conversion.htm
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11-26-03, 11:58 PM
#8
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
You know the smart way would just to find a Jspec, send the 13BT block off to Kevin (hypntyz7) have him rebuild it at his bargin rates, then install it.
Reliability and power.
Reliability and power.
11-27-03, 12:27 AM
#9
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Originally posted by Icemark
You know the smart way would just to find a Jspec, send the 13BT block off to Kevin (hypntyz7) have him rebuild it at his bargin rates, then install it.
Reliability and power.
You know the smart way would just to find a Jspec, send the 13BT block off to Kevin (hypntyz7) have him rebuild it at his bargin rates, then install it.
Reliability and power.
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