Mazda Design breakthrough saves the rotary
03-02-12, 03:21 PM
#26
Its a promising system, just needs a few more bugs worked out, but rotaries have enough problems as is, I'd rather some piston engine take the heat and find all the solutions first
03-02-12, 03:27 PM
#27
Improvements are still constantly being made on piston engine design and chamber shapes after a century of constant development from lots of people. Why is it hard to believe that the only company that has been working on the rotary for 50 years hasn't found a design breakthrough now? The Renesis rotary is still fundamentally the same basic engine that went into the original Cosmo sport in the 60's. Sure it's bigger, has a few different materials, and fuel injection but the point is that the engine design hasn't fundamentally changed much. Mazda has apparently changed the shape of the engine a bit internally so that there is better sealing at low loads and rpm's which means better emissions and better mileage. Whether that chamber change is the 16X dimension or another one figured out since then is the real question.
03-02-12, 04:31 PM
#28
Why not? So are you telling me after hundreds if not thousands of years in medical development, we should be reaching the limit by now?
Better process, better material, new metallurgy, faster computers, etc etc can make something impossible even just couple years ago possible.
Better process, better material, new metallurgy, faster computers, etc etc can make something impossible even just couple years ago possible.
My beef is with the fact that the interview was (purposely?) vague and my takeaway was "we figured out something that makes everything better." But outside of Mazda's R&D department, it's all "stuff we heard." No offense J9FD3S.
To liken it to medicine: Say a drug company announced tomorrow that they now have a drug that cures all kinds of cancer, aids, diabetes, heart attacks, polio, crooked teeth, bad eyesight, and sandy vag syndrome. You can't have it yet and they won't tell you what it is. But it has something to do with medicine. Wouldn't you be a bit skeptical, especially if they announced a similar one 4 years ago and happens to be in financial troubles?
03-03-12, 08:04 AM
#35
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03-03-12, 08:07 AM
#37
I think the diehard hoper contingent focuses too much on the "supply" side and completely ignores the "demand".
It's all well and good for engineers to (potentially) resolve the rotary's issues and make it viable in the modern regulatory environment, but that's only the beginning.
Next, the support infrastructure- parts supply, dealer tech training, etc.- must be put in place.
Finally, you have to somehow convince the public to buy into your little experiment.
What car would this new rotary go into?
Mazda already has the Miata, so the cheap/cheerful sports car segment is covered and it would make no sense to compete against its own product.
A high end, halo sports car?
Is that market large enough to justify the expense?
Dream on.
How often have you had the opportunity to buy the engine from a wrecked Ferrari or Lotus?
High end cars get totalled daily but where is the supply of exotic parts at our end of the foodchain?
Even assuming magic happens and a new super rotary is available for tree fiddy (the upper limit for most FC owner purchases), imagine trying to integrate the complex engine management system (everything, up to and including the gauges, will be computer controlled) into the old chassis.
The emissions will be so tightly integrated with engine management that it will be impossible (and illegal in most places) to "desmog" the car...it wouldn't run.
That means an engine swap includes all the hardware that clutters the modern engine bay and makes the mechanic's life miserable.
All of which begs the question:
Assuming it is somehow possible to pull off such a swap, why the hell wouldn't you do it to a FD instead of a FC?
It's all well and good for engineers to (potentially) resolve the rotary's issues and make it viable in the modern regulatory environment, but that's only the beginning.
Next, the support infrastructure- parts supply, dealer tech training, etc.- must be put in place.
Finally, you have to somehow convince the public to buy into your little experiment.
What car would this new rotary go into?
Mazda already has the Miata, so the cheap/cheerful sports car segment is covered and it would make no sense to compete against its own product.
A high end, halo sports car?
Is that market large enough to justify the expense?
We may not buy them... But we'll buy them wrecked, to swap the engines into our FC's. ;-)
How often have you had the opportunity to buy the engine from a wrecked Ferrari or Lotus?
High end cars get totalled daily but where is the supply of exotic parts at our end of the foodchain?
Even assuming magic happens and a new super rotary is available for tree fiddy (the upper limit for most FC owner purchases), imagine trying to integrate the complex engine management system (everything, up to and including the gauges, will be computer controlled) into the old chassis.
The emissions will be so tightly integrated with engine management that it will be impossible (and illegal in most places) to "desmog" the car...it wouldn't run.
That means an engine swap includes all the hardware that clutters the modern engine bay and makes the mechanic's life miserable.
All of which begs the question:
Assuming it is somehow possible to pull off such a swap, why the hell wouldn't you do it to a FD instead of a FC?
03-03-12, 08:15 AM
#38
I think the diehard hoper contingent focuses too much on the "supply" side and completely ignores the "demand".
It's all well and good for engineers to (potentially) resolve the rotary's issues and make it viable in the modern regulatory environment, but that's only the beginning.
Next, the support infrastructure- parts supply, dealer tech training, etc.- must be put in place.
Finally, you have to somehow convince the public to buy into your little experiment.
What car would this new rotary go into?
Mazda already has the Miata, so the cheap/cheerful sports car segment is covered and it would make no sense to compete against its own product.
A high end, halo sports car?
Is that market large enough to justify the expense?
It's all well and good for engineers to (potentially) resolve the rotary's issues and make it viable in the modern regulatory environment, but that's only the beginning.
Next, the support infrastructure- parts supply, dealer tech training, etc.- must be put in place.
Finally, you have to somehow convince the public to buy into your little experiment.
What car would this new rotary go into?
Mazda already has the Miata, so the cheap/cheerful sports car segment is covered and it would make no sense to compete against its own product.
A high end, halo sports car?
Is that market large enough to justify the expense?
I don't expect a new rotary car, but you never know... If anyone can pull off a car "nobody wants", it's Mazda.
03-03-12, 09:05 AM
#39
The original RX-7 was simply moving into the niche created by the 240/260/280Z- and mimicked Nissan exactly as the 7 bloated into the 2nd gen.
The 3rd gen was a spectacular car that only managed to sell in the hundreds, hardly a spectacular sales success.
The RX-8 was so weird it hardly even counts.
The Miata reclaimed the market segment abandoned by the British.
Mazda bet that the death of the cheap convertible sports car was because of crap offerings, not a basic lack of desire. The Miata was all things that a MGB or a Fiat was- small, cheap and topless- and added "reliable", an element previously missing.
Couple the basic goodness of the product with a couple decades of easily available credit and you have the success of the Miata.
In other words, Mazda didn't create either the demand or the environment that made the (limited) success of the rotary possible, they provided a desirable product at a time when the demographic could could indulge itself.
Now let's look at how things stand today.
Clearly, there is a fairly large demand for high end supercars, everyone has 'em.
Ignore makers like McLaren and Ferrari, companies who only build exotics and look at "full service" manufacturers.
Companies can justify suspension/chassis/material exotica because it legitimately can trickle down to regular production units...all the cool bits on a Lexus LFA will morph and be diluted to appear on a Camry later on.
When it came to the engine however, did Toyota decide to use something that could never reasonably be expected to expand through the line...like a turbine, say?
Um, no.
Way too bloody expensive for even Toyotas deep pockets but you imagine that plucky Mazda can pull a Rudy here?
Imagine that the upper management suite gets an especially good delivery of weed and decides that yes, building an expensive sports car with an engine that their dealer network despises and the customer is afraid of (rightly so) is a brilliant idea.
Now imagine that the money to finance this chimera actually exists (hint: it doesn't!) and the dream made real sits on the showroom floor (of at least one dealer per metropolitan area, if you're lucky).
In today's recession, how many units are you moving a month?
03-03-12, 11:15 AM
#41
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Even assuming magic happens and a new super rotary is available for tree fiddy (the upper limit for most FC owner purchases), imagine trying to integrate the complex engine management system (everything, up to and including the gauges, will be computer controlled) into the old chassis.
The emissions will be so tightly integrated with engine management that it will be impossible (and illegal in most places) to "desmog" the car...it wouldn't run.
That means an engine swap includes all the hardware that clutters the modern engine bay and makes the mechanic's life miserable.
All of which begs the question:
Assuming it is somehow possible to pull off such a swap, why the hell wouldn't you do it to a FD instead of a FC?
The emissions will be so tightly integrated with engine management that it will be impossible (and illegal in most places) to "desmog" the car...it wouldn't run.
That means an engine swap includes all the hardware that clutters the modern engine bay and makes the mechanic's life miserable.
All of which begs the question:
Assuming it is somehow possible to pull off such a swap, why the hell wouldn't you do it to a FD instead of a FC?
03-03-12, 12:34 PM
#43
Was there a break through that produced more torque, increased fuel efficiency, and made the rotary engine more robust? These engines look good in theory but come up short in the real world. No one wants to reinvent the wheel. The piston engine will always be superior. Mazda will never make another turbo rotary sports car.
03-03-12, 12:50 PM
#44
Objection!! All of your other logic is sound, but the customer is NOT right to be afraid of the rotary.
Amen! I love my FCs, and fully admit that I have unusual taste. [My dream car is a Black on Black cloth interior S5 Turbo... Which aside from technically being an A-package and having leather, is sitting in my garage waiting for me to finish 
]
Never say never...
Originally Posted by dwb87
Mainly because I'd much rather have an FC than an FD. That may just be me, though... since everyone else here drives an FC because they can't afford an FD? I don't know. I cannot speak for everyone else.
]
Originally Posted by PvillKnight7
The piston engine will always be superior. Mazda will never make another turbo rotary sports car.
03-03-12, 01:36 PM
#45
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after the people who remember the FD die, it'll be possible... but until then turbo rotary will not happen. especially in the US market. we complain too much. there is a long history of that too, this is why we got the GSL-SE as a non turbo 6 port, and Japan got the 12A turbo.
03-03-12, 09:04 PM
#47
I guess most of us here have been staying in the cheap car section for wayyyy too long.
Recession? Bad economy? Sure it is, no doubt about that. But there are people out there who has deep pocket and willing to spend their hard earn cash on the next cool and good looking halo car.
Fd failed because their brand wasnt up to porsches level with a porsche like price. If you are a buyer, would you get a porsche or mazda? Even if i tell u mazda performs better?
Nowdays things a abit different. Mazda shouldnt have any problem selling a 40k sports car IF it is as good as the fd minus the heat related issue.
Mazda plz dont make the next rotary a hybrid, the new nsx is cool but i think its a failed, to me it sound lik ehonda cant keep up with ots compeitiors and gotta rely on hybrid to reach their performance and emission goal
Recession? Bad economy? Sure it is, no doubt about that. But there are people out there who has deep pocket and willing to spend their hard earn cash on the next cool and good looking halo car.
Fd failed because their brand wasnt up to porsches level with a porsche like price. If you are a buyer, would you get a porsche or mazda? Even if i tell u mazda performs better?
Nowdays things a abit different. Mazda shouldnt have any problem selling a 40k sports car IF it is as good as the fd minus the heat related issue.
Mazda plz dont make the next rotary a hybrid, the new nsx is cool but i think its a failed, to me it sound lik ehonda cant keep up with ots compeitiors and gotta rely on hybrid to reach their performance and emission goal
03-03-12, 09:46 PM
#48
Right you are, no problem whatsoever selling the halo rotary sportscar for $40k.
Building such a car is the problem...it can't be done, Mazda would lose money on every unit at even twice that price.
Setting aside the inherent niche market stigma attached to the rotary, ask this:
What does the rotary bring to the platform that a piston engine can't?
Building such a car is the problem...it can't be done, Mazda would lose money on every unit at even twice that price.
Setting aside the inherent niche market stigma attached to the rotary, ask this:
What does the rotary bring to the platform that a piston engine can't?
03-03-12, 11:02 PM
#49
Right you are, no problem whatsoever selling the halo rotary sportscar for $40k.
Building such a car is the problem...it can't be done, Mazda would lose money on every unit at even twice that price.
Setting aside the inherent niche market stigma attached to the rotary, ask this:
What does the rotary bring to the platform that a piston engine can't?
Building such a car is the problem...it can't be done, Mazda would lose money on every unit at even twice that price.
Setting aside the inherent niche market stigma attached to the rotary, ask this:
What does the rotary bring to the platform that a piston engine can't?
remember when Rx-8 first came out u barely be able to find a car with lower CoG than Rx-8, largly due to Rotary Engine's compact size and weird shape.
Smooth like a V8 ? (this is well known fact)
It's actually lighter (assume they use all alumium this next engine) ?
no one ever expect rotary (or ANY halo car) to make money. it's just there to show the world "what we can do" ? A car company can spend millions in advertizement easily. that's why they rather spend some of those money to make a HALO car. so people will remember their brand when they see the car.
Supra = think of Toyota
GT-R = think of Nissan
R8 = Audi
etc etc.
just ask Nissan is their Gt-R making any money. answer is no. Ask the same question to Audi (VW) for their R8, they will tell u the same thing (or Toyota for their LFA, etc etc)
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