Mazda Design breakthrough saves the rotary
03-02-12, 12:24 AM
#4
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That is SO cool! Maybe I'll do a write-up for the new engine swap. haha ;-)
“Moving forward, we plan to put greater emphasis on the rotary’s strong points – low vibration, compact size and high power output. And in this way, we can improve fuel economy.”
Nice ^
“Moving forward, we plan to put greater emphasis on the rotary’s strong points – low vibration, compact size and high power output. And in this way, we can improve fuel economy.”
Nice ^
03-02-12, 12:37 AM
#5
Nah, The articles I've seen on this topic indicate its a laser ignition source with fiber optic cables that lead to the combustion chambers. You'd likely leave the laser part alone (akin to ignition coils) and replace the optic cables (like sparkplugs and spark plug cables)
Assuming they can fix the optics problems, you'd probably double the lifetime of the cables, ie they would last twice as long as spark plugs
Assuming they can fix the optics problems, you'd probably double the lifetime of the cables, ie they would last twice as long as spark plugs
03-02-12, 08:11 AM
#7
Nah, The articles I've seen on this topic indicate its a laser ignition source with fiber optic cables that lead to the combustion chambers. You'd likely leave the laser part alone (akin to ignition coils) and replace the optic cables (like sparkplugs and spark plug cables)
Assuming they can fix the optics problems, you'd probably double the lifetime of the cables, ie they would last twice as long as spark plugs
Assuming they can fix the optics problems, you'd probably double the lifetime of the cables, ie they would last twice as long as spark plugs
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03-02-12, 09:51 AM
#10
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Sorry clokker, but I'm going to side with the engineer over you this time. But you are not wrong to speculate. After all, we have only had these problems to deal with since the rotary was first introduced.
My biggest concern for the new engine would be what they are going to do about the MOP... I personally am a believer of pre-mixing and I think the MOP was a bad idea since it injects the crankcase oil into the combustion chamber. I think if they could figure out a way that we could use a synthetic oil for the bearings and have a separate reserve for the injection oil then a MOP system could be retained in a positive new way. But then the issue then returns, who would buy the car knowing they have to fill two oils? I'm sure most of us would be perfectly fine with that, but rotary newcomers and the general public would be very turned off by this.
My biggest concern for the new engine would be what they are going to do about the MOP... I personally am a believer of pre-mixing and I think the MOP was a bad idea since it injects the crankcase oil into the combustion chamber. I think if they could figure out a way that we could use a synthetic oil for the bearings and have a separate reserve for the injection oil then a MOP system could be retained in a positive new way. But then the issue then returns, who would buy the car knowing they have to fill two oils? I'm sure most of us would be perfectly fine with that, but rotary newcomers and the general public would be very turned off by this.
03-02-12, 11:08 AM
#11
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My biggest concern for the new engine would be what they are going to do about the MOP... I personally am a believer of pre-mixing and I think the MOP was a bad idea since it injects the crankcase oil into the combustion chamber. I think if they could figure out a way that we could use a synthetic oil for the bearings and have a separate reserve for the injection oil then a MOP system could be retained in a positive new way. But then the issue then returns, who would buy the car knowing they have to fill two oils? I'm sure most of us would be perfectly fine with that, but rotary newcomers and the general public would be very turned off by this.
03-02-12, 11:28 AM
#12
that's old news. it was annouced months ago. I even have patents drawings of it somewhere in my comp.
and Mazda already said they will not restart Rotary project until they make enough money on their current SkyActiv platform, consider they lost 1.1 Billion last year.
things can change tho, right now Mazda's sales increased by a lot. their Mazda3 with SkyActiv-G is seeing record sales. and with their recently released CX-5 with Full SkyActiv installed, I expect they soon will have enough "funds" to restart the whole RE-work house.
and Mazda already said they will not restart Rotary project until they make enough money on their current SkyActiv platform, consider they lost 1.1 Billion last year.
things can change tho, right now Mazda's sales increased by a lot. their Mazda3 with SkyActiv-G is seeing record sales. and with their recently released CX-5 with Full SkyActiv installed, I expect they soon will have enough "funds" to restart the whole RE-work house.
03-02-12, 11:31 AM
#14
The same problems have plagued the rotary since its early development days, but they've suddenly just "figured everything out"? 
I hope the rotary continues, but I'll believe it when I see it. I think half of us were ready to put a deposit down on a 16x crate engine back in '07, but look how that turned out.
Also, the general public doesn't like to do anything extra for their cars, like fill up extra oil reservoirs, pay attention to warning lights, look before changing lanes, etc... And then everyone will complain about the lack of torque, which Hitomi states isn't an area they're working on, and then go buy a v6 camaro.
I hope the rotary continues, but I'll believe it when I see it. I think half of us were ready to put a deposit down on a 16x crate engine back in '07, but look how that turned out.Also, the general public doesn't like to do anything extra for their cars, like fill up extra oil reservoirs, pay attention to warning lights, look before changing lanes, etc... And then everyone will complain about the lack of torque, which Hitomi states isn't an area they're working on, and then go buy a v6 camaro.
03-02-12, 11:33 AM
#15
Sorry clokker, but I'm going to side with the engineer over you this time. But you are not wrong to speculate. After all, we have only had these problems to deal with since the rotary was first introduced.
My biggest concern for the new engine would be what they are going to do about the MOP... I personally am a believer of pre-mixing and I think the MOP was a bad idea since it injects the crankcase oil into the combustion chamber. I think if they could figure out a way that we could use a synthetic oil for the bearings and have a separate reserve for the injection oil then a MOP system could be retained in a positive new way. But then the issue then returns, who would buy the car knowing they have to fill two oils? I'm sure most of us would be perfectly fine with that, but rotary newcomers and the general public would be very turned off by this.
My biggest concern for the new engine would be what they are going to do about the MOP... I personally am a believer of pre-mixing and I think the MOP was a bad idea since it injects the crankcase oil into the combustion chamber. I think if they could figure out a way that we could use a synthetic oil for the bearings and have a separate reserve for the injection oil then a MOP system could be retained in a positive new way. But then the issue then returns, who would buy the car knowing they have to fill two oils? I'm sure most of us would be perfectly fine with that, but rotary newcomers and the general public would be very turned off by this.
You can get carbon all over the place even if you use Mineral oil.
Not to mention most carbon u see actually came from the gasoline, not from the sump.
03-02-12, 12:02 PM
#16
The MOP/OMP was invented because the general public doesn't even check their oil regularly, thus Mazda figured they wouldn't bother with two oil reservoirs or even two types of oil. I think its here to stay in its current form
Mazda is hurting because of two factors. First, the Yen in strong, so its not in their best interests to export things from Japan to other parts of the world. Unfortunately Mazda doesn't really sell well in Japan, but they do sell well in the US and ok in other markets.
Mazda is betting on Skyactiv to do two things. First, improve sales in Japan, and second, get other companies interested in leasing the technology which would be pure profit for Mazda.
Mazda is hurting because of two factors. First, the Yen in strong, so its not in their best interests to export things from Japan to other parts of the world. Unfortunately Mazda doesn't really sell well in Japan, but they do sell well in the US and ok in other markets.
Mazda is betting on Skyactiv to do two things. First, improve sales in Japan, and second, get other companies interested in leasing the technology which would be pure profit for Mazda.
03-02-12, 12:03 PM
#17
A comment about the OMP system - new diesels require a liquid that is injected into the exhaust to reduce emissions. how hard is it to do that with oil? I realize its a critical function instead of exhaust additive...but it's not like it isnt something others are doing.
"Mercedes adblue - The AdBlue system houses the DOC and particulate filter in a single housing. In addition to the NAC catalyst, ammonia is supplied by injecting a fluid called AdBlue into the exhaust upstream of the SCR catalyst. The addition of AdBlue fluid enables the SCR catalyst to reduce NOx emissions to a level even lower than the NAC-SCR system. AdBlue is carried in an on-board tank which can be replenished when the car is serviced; a gallon of AdBlue fluid lasts approximately 2,400 miles."
design a 2 cycle container that is large enough to go 3-5k miles before fill up with LOTS of hard driving since that uses more oil then light loads.
I think with the reference to not focusing on low end torque, they are going to have electric assist. electrics always have max torque.
"Mercedes adblue - The AdBlue system houses the DOC and particulate filter in a single housing. In addition to the NAC catalyst, ammonia is supplied by injecting a fluid called AdBlue into the exhaust upstream of the SCR catalyst. The addition of AdBlue fluid enables the SCR catalyst to reduce NOx emissions to a level even lower than the NAC-SCR system. AdBlue is carried in an on-board tank which can be replenished when the car is serviced; a gallon of AdBlue fluid lasts approximately 2,400 miles."
design a 2 cycle container that is large enough to go 3-5k miles before fill up with LOTS of hard driving since that uses more oil then light loads.
I think with the reference to not focusing on low end torque, they are going to have electric assist. electrics always have max torque.
03-02-12, 12:19 PM
#18
Also, the general public doesn't like to do anything extra for their cars, like fill up extra oil reservoirs, pay attention to warning lights, look before changing lanes, etc... And then everyone will complain about the lack of torque, which Hitomi states isn't an area they're working on, and then go buy a v6 camaro.
03-02-12, 12:25 PM
#19
With new diesels its totally different, the bluetec, adblue or whatever systems HAVE to be refilled regularly. I believe its the Ford DPF system that will not run after the urea/horse **** has been depleted and the vehicle has ran without it for a set amount of time, mileage or key cycles. If that was integrated to the rotary engine with the seperate mop system people would be forced to maintain it. And oil isnt expensive like Bluetec fluid is..and its only horse **** in a bottle.
03-02-12, 12:50 PM
#20
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A comment about the OMP system - new diesels require a liquid that is injected into the exhaust to reduce emissions. how hard is it to do that with oil? I realize its a critical function instead of exhaust additive...but it's not like it isnt something others are doing.
"Mercedes adblue - The AdBlue system houses the DOC and particulate filter in a single housing. In addition to the NAC catalyst, ammonia is supplied by injecting a fluid called AdBlue into the exhaust upstream of the SCR catalyst. The addition of AdBlue fluid enables the SCR catalyst to reduce NOx emissions to a level even lower than the NAC-SCR system. AdBlue is carried in an on-board tank which can be replenished when the car is serviced; a gallon of AdBlue fluid lasts approximately 2,400 miles."
design a 2 cycle container that is large enough to go 3-5k miles before fill up with LOTS of hard driving since that uses more oil then light loads.
I think with the reference to not focusing on low end torque, they are going to have electric assist. electrics always have max torque.
"Mercedes adblue - The AdBlue system houses the DOC and particulate filter in a single housing. In addition to the NAC catalyst, ammonia is supplied by injecting a fluid called AdBlue into the exhaust upstream of the SCR catalyst. The addition of AdBlue fluid enables the SCR catalyst to reduce NOx emissions to a level even lower than the NAC-SCR system. AdBlue is carried in an on-board tank which can be replenished when the car is serviced; a gallon of AdBlue fluid lasts approximately 2,400 miles."
design a 2 cycle container that is large enough to go 3-5k miles before fill up with LOTS of hard driving since that uses more oil then light loads.
I think with the reference to not focusing on low end torque, they are going to have electric assist. electrics always have max torque.
03-02-12, 01:15 PM
#21
I'm not saying there is no progress to be made, I'm just questioning the timing. After 50+ years of rotary development, I find it hard to believe a single breakthrough cures all the issues that make the rotary non-viable as mainstream product. I really want a car equipped with lasers, though. In the end, the engine is either going to be produced or it's not. Just have to wait and see.
03-02-12, 01:28 PM
#22
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I'm not saying there is no progress to be made, I'm just questioning the timing. After 50+ years of rotary development, I find it hard to believe a single breakthrough cures all the issues that make the rotary non-viable as mainstream product. I really want a car equipped with lasers, though. In the end, the engine is either going to be produced or it's not. Just have to wait and see.
But I digress.Any R&D can be a long drawn out process. An idea comes up, and sometimes gets you to where you want to go, but most times doesn't. But over time, if a solution is out there R&D persistance will find it. I pray every day that that truth will also find a cure for cancer.
03-02-12, 01:39 PM
#23
I'm not saying there is no progress to be made, I'm just questioning the timing. After 50+ years of rotary development, I find it hard to believe a single breakthrough cures all the issues that make the rotary non-viable as mainstream product. I really want a car equipped with lasers, though. In the end, the engine is either going to be produced or it's not. Just have to wait and see.
03-02-12, 01:59 PM
#24
I'm not saying there is no progress to be made, I'm just questioning the timing. After 50+ years of rotary development, I find it hard to believe a single breakthrough cures all the issues that make the rotary non-viable as mainstream product. I really want a car equipped with lasers, though. In the end, the engine is either going to be produced or it's not. Just have to wait and see.
Better process, better material, new metallurgy, faster computers, etc etc can make something impossible even just couple years ago possible.
03-02-12, 03:01 PM
#25
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i heard the rumors about the new rotary a couple of months ago, and it sounds really good! 300-350hp, and they do have a car for it.
the metering pump will stay, people have enough trouble with keeping engine oil in their cars, adding another mystery container is just a non starter, and the 04-08 Rx8 notwithstanding the MOP system actually does work.
the break through is not one big thing, its a combination of smaller things. chamber sealing is one of the big ones, its a HUGE factor in low rpm power, fuel economy, AND emissions. also the new engine is probably going to have a direct injection system, which works on piston engines, so it should work on a rotary also. thirdly the ignition. i've heard that its 3 plug, like the 787, and the 3rd plug doesn't do much for power, but it does clean up the emissions.
they have also changed the geometry, and i'm not sure what effects that will have, but i think you can assume that they were looking for better mileage, lower emissions, and probably instead of the 8500rpm power peak of the Rx8, the new engine will be a little lower.
the metering pump will stay, people have enough trouble with keeping engine oil in their cars, adding another mystery container is just a non starter, and the 04-08 Rx8 notwithstanding the MOP system actually does work.
the break through is not one big thing, its a combination of smaller things. chamber sealing is one of the big ones, its a HUGE factor in low rpm power, fuel economy, AND emissions. also the new engine is probably going to have a direct injection system, which works on piston engines, so it should work on a rotary also. thirdly the ignition. i've heard that its 3 plug, like the 787, and the 3rd plug doesn't do much for power, but it does clean up the emissions.
they have also changed the geometry, and i'm not sure what effects that will have, but i think you can assume that they were looking for better mileage, lower emissions, and probably instead of the 8500rpm power peak of the Rx8, the new engine will be a little lower.
