How would you build the most reliable 13B
05-25-05, 12:13 AM
#1
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How would you build the most reliable 13B
This is just for fun, we're not concerned with costs whatsoever. I put that in bold becuase it seems like everytime I make one of these posts, you get the retard who read the last sentence and says
"thats not economically viable" bla bla bla
So, rules, there are always rules
1)Already existing materials that are available to the retail public. Heh.. no talking about how some new metal just was developed or new oil that has 0 resistance etc etc that you can use with this engine. It is not allowed. It has to be things that you can buy online or through mazda.
2)All stock components of the engine will be used, so in other words, all stock parts except those that can be improved, such as apex seals etc. This also isn't a 900hp engine we are trying to think up here either, this is any of the stock 13B's of the second gen series. You can interchange parts from any of the series, including the rx8's if it improves reliability. If the part improves reliability and horsepower, it will be allowed.
3)The power of the engine should not be increased substantially, nor should it be decreased to improve reliability. Remember, try and keep it as stock as possible except for #2
3)You don't have to plan it all out, just shout up ideas that hopefully no one has thought of already, any particular part, and a particular way you want to install it for increased reliability, just post it.
I think this could be fun, if you have any theorys on the life expectancy of the engine after we have a shitload of ideas, by all means post it.
I think this could be fun, so I hope we don't get into any arguments, but just remember that this is about reliability, and not performance.
"thats not economically viable" bla bla bla
So, rules, there are always rules
1)Already existing materials that are available to the retail public. Heh.. no talking about how some new metal just was developed or new oil that has 0 resistance etc etc that you can use with this engine. It is not allowed. It has to be things that you can buy online or through mazda.
2)All stock components of the engine will be used, so in other words, all stock parts except those that can be improved, such as apex seals etc. This also isn't a 900hp engine we are trying to think up here either, this is any of the stock 13B's of the second gen series. You can interchange parts from any of the series, including the rx8's if it improves reliability. If the part improves reliability and horsepower, it will be allowed.
3)The power of the engine should not be increased substantially, nor should it be decreased to improve reliability. Remember, try and keep it as stock as possible except for #2
3)You don't have to plan it all out, just shout up ideas that hopefully no one has thought of already, any particular part, and a particular way you want to install it for increased reliability, just post it.
I think this could be fun, if you have any theorys on the life expectancy of the engine after we have a shitload of ideas, by all means post it.
I think this could be fun, so I hope we don't get into any arguments, but just remember that this is about reliability, and not performance.
05-25-05, 12:38 AM
#2
all brand new mazda OEM S5 internals and externals including gaskets and apex seals, reinforce the coolant seal walls and build it with my own hands because i trust no one but myself.
i wouldn't do any modifications to the internals and the vehicle would have to be serviced regularly.
the only weakness in these engines is the weaker chrome on the S4 rotor housings and the thin casting on the coolant seal walls, in stock applications with upgrades to protect against these failures i'm sure you could easily get 200-300k out of an engine driven moderately with acceleration with mainly freeway miles.
i wouldn't do any modifications to the internals and the vehicle would have to be serviced regularly.
the only weakness in these engines is the weaker chrome on the S4 rotor housings and the thin casting on the coolant seal walls, in stock applications with upgrades to protect against these failures i'm sure you could easily get 200-300k out of an engine driven moderately with acceleration with mainly freeway miles.
05-25-05, 12:56 AM
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Go here:http://www.jhbperformance.com/
Use the "cermet a" rotor housings with the "cermet a" endplates, then get 3mm ceramic apex seals. Use all-new internals & polish rotors and all ports, convert the OMP to 2-cycle,... and have fun the rest of your life!(Make sure your grandkids are responsible drivers before you go tho...It could last that long if properly cared for).
Note: The car may not last that long, but the engine should, if not used for racing.
Wouldn't it be nice to be able to justify that amount of $$$?
Use the "cermet a" rotor housings with the "cermet a" endplates, then get 3mm ceramic apex seals. Use all-new internals & polish rotors and all ports, convert the OMP to 2-cycle,... and have fun the rest of your life!(Make sure your grandkids are responsible drivers before you go tho...It could last that long if properly cared for).
Note: The car may not last that long, but the engine should, if not used for racing.
Wouldn't it be nice to be able to justify that amount of $$$?
05-25-05, 01:09 AM
#5
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leave it stock except for premixing, and religiously follow the maintenance shedule.
redline it in 3rd at least once every 100 miles, and do the water trick with a gallon of distilled before every oil change.
thats it.
i realy think maintanance is more important than hard-parts.
im sure others will agree.
redline it in 3rd at least once every 100 miles, and do the water trick with a gallon of distilled before every oil change.
thats it.
i realy think maintanance is more important than hard-parts.
im sure others will agree.
05-25-05, 01:15 AM
#6
FD or S5 rotor housings, in all honesty it wouldn't be built for power anyways so FD rotor housings would probably decrease the longevity of the engine.
i thought about the ceramic housings but i still haven't seen them prove the test of time, when i see a pair of housings outlast a 200k mile factory built motor is when i will believe they are better.
thanks for reminding me about the premix, i would definitely convert it to a premix setup, might even get 400k out of a freeway driven engine.
polishing is overrated, the only place where it has it's uses is in the intake ports, even then it has been a mixed debate for many many many years over whether smooth or rough ports produce the best amount of power, in all honesty though if you have good atomization of the fuel from the injectors then glass smooth ports would be best, the spray bars just under the injectors and the injectors themselves do a good enough jobs in these motors that polished ports are the best way to go. polishing the rotors and exhaust ports is a waste of time, carbon will build up on them within seconds of startup, it simply makes cleaning the parts much easier during the next rebuild.
i thought about the ceramic housings but i still haven't seen them prove the test of time, when i see a pair of housings outlast a 200k mile factory built motor is when i will believe they are better.
thanks for reminding me about the premix, i would definitely convert it to a premix setup, might even get 400k out of a freeway driven engine.
polishing is overrated, the only place where it has it's uses is in the intake ports, even then it has been a mixed debate for many many many years over whether smooth or rough ports produce the best amount of power, in all honesty though if you have good atomization of the fuel from the injectors then glass smooth ports would be best, the spray bars just under the injectors and the injectors themselves do a good enough jobs in these motors that polished ports are the best way to go. polishing the rotors and exhaust ports is a waste of time, carbon will build up on them within seconds of startup, it simply makes cleaning the parts much easier during the next rebuild.
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05-25-05, 04:48 AM
#11
Just because it makes more power dosen't mean it is naturally less reliable. There's a 350 builder in AZ that make motors 350HP and up that last over 200k. There was an article in a Hot Rod mag. Then they went into how he does it. Close tolerances, quality components, pays attention to cooling and oil flow, everything is in perfect balance. All of those things would still apply to our motor build up.
If built properly with enough attention to details, you could build a motor that makes more power than stock, and be much more reliable.
So I would use all new parts. S5 housings and rotors, mazdaspeed race bearings for improved oil flow, convert the OMP for 2-cycle. I haven't decided on apex seals. those new bad *** O rings from atkins or wherever. Blue printed and balanced. new themo pellet and spring. mild street port and mild port on intake. port the coolant passages. fix any weak point that mazda comprized in the interest of money.
maybe for more power and more control I would use an aftermarket ECU.
If you take care of this motor and you don't do anything stupid, this motor would most likely out live a brand new stock mazda built motor. but it would cost much more too.
If built properly with enough attention to details, you could build a motor that makes more power than stock, and be much more reliable.
So I would use all new parts. S5 housings and rotors, mazdaspeed race bearings for improved oil flow, convert the OMP for 2-cycle. I haven't decided on apex seals. those new bad *** O rings from atkins or wherever. Blue printed and balanced. new themo pellet and spring. mild street port and mild port on intake. port the coolant passages. fix any weak point that mazda comprized in the interest of money.
maybe for more power and more control I would use an aftermarket ECU.
If you take care of this motor and you don't do anything stupid, this motor would most likely out live a brand new stock mazda built motor. but it would cost much more too.
Last edited by tweaked; 05-25-05 at 04:59 AM.
05-25-05, 07:45 AM
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I've heared that full time water injection works to keep the carbon down. Maybe that and polished rotors would keep it from forming in dangerous amounts?
Would the water injection be against the rules?
What cryogenic processing of the rotors and stationary gears?http://www.rotorsportsracing.com/per...gine_parts.htm
As far as cemet coatings go...I think they have been proven. Why else would Mazda use them in their 787B racecar? In the other roary forum I read how this one racing guy is able to take his set of ceramic seals and reuse them in his rebuilds. He had used them in three engines so far, with no sign of wear on them. I've spoken with Marc at JHB several times. The ceramics have been proven in SAE engine testing. They ran a cermet coated engine the equivalent of 300,000 mi, then took it apart and found hardly any wear. Not to mention the real world engine testing, of which I will soon be part of.
(No way can I afford cermet A rotor housings or apex seals though.) I just found this while surfing the web:http://www.selectmaz.com.au/apex_seals.htm
Someon else is convinced about them as well...I could find more people, but I'm short on time.
Ceramics look like the future for every engine not just rotaries. If cars start burning a Hydrogen/Oxygen mixture, the cylinders will need a rust proof coating (ceramics would work for that as well) and stainless steel vavles and exhaust sys. I even think some prodution diesels are allready being internally coated.
The ceramics are proven to expand and contract much less due to temperature, as well as repel heat. That's why the heat sheilding tiles and many other parts on the space shutle are of some kind of ceramic.
My point is...theses performance ceramic coatings are not something new. Someone figured out how to put them into automotive engines awhile ago. Why shouldn't the rotary benefit from them as well? What other material on earth is as hard and can can protect it's self and the metal its coating by self-lubricating when exposed to high friction and/or temperatures?
Here are some links about it some more:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/51120/
http://www.enduracoatings.com/prod400_a.cfm
http://www.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/...i.ceramic.html
When I first heard about the ceramics, I was sceptical too. How many of us have had or seen a coffy mug or a ceramic flower pot just break from just a slight ding?
Clearly they'er not the same.
I hope I don't start anything negative here. Just wanted to help
Would the water injection be against the rules?
What cryogenic processing of the rotors and stationary gears?http://www.rotorsportsracing.com/per...gine_parts.htm
As far as cemet coatings go...I think they have been proven. Why else would Mazda use them in their 787B racecar? In the other roary forum I read how this one racing guy is able to take his set of ceramic seals and reuse them in his rebuilds. He had used them in three engines so far, with no sign of wear on them. I've spoken with Marc at JHB several times. The ceramics have been proven in SAE engine testing. They ran a cermet coated engine the equivalent of 300,000 mi, then took it apart and found hardly any wear. Not to mention the real world engine testing, of which I will soon be part of.
(No way can I afford cermet A rotor housings or apex seals though.) I just found this while surfing the web:http://www.selectmaz.com.au/apex_seals.htm Someon else is convinced about them as well...I could find more people, but I'm short on time.
Ceramics look like the future for every engine not just rotaries. If cars start burning a Hydrogen/Oxygen mixture, the cylinders will need a rust proof coating (ceramics would work for that as well) and stainless steel vavles and exhaust sys. I even think some prodution diesels are allready being internally coated.
The ceramics are proven to expand and contract much less due to temperature, as well as repel heat. That's why the heat sheilding tiles and many other parts on the space shutle are of some kind of ceramic.
My point is...theses performance ceramic coatings are not something new. Someone figured out how to put them into automotive engines awhile ago. Why shouldn't the rotary benefit from them as well? What other material on earth is as hard and can can protect it's self and the metal its coating by self-lubricating when exposed to high friction and/or temperatures?
Here are some links about it some more:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/51120/
http://www.enduracoatings.com/prod400_a.cfm
http://www.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/...i.ceramic.html
When I first heard about the ceramics, I was sceptical too. How many of us have had or seen a coffy mug or a ceramic flower pot just break from just a slight ding?
Clearly they'er not the same.
I hope I don't start anything negative here. Just wanted to help
05-25-05, 09:43 AM
#13
I'd keep it NA, premix in the gas, and change the oil every 2k miles.
I'd drive it gently until it was warmed up, and then make sure to beat on it quite regularly to keep everything moving freely.
I'd perform regular maintenance on it, and try to replace things *before* they fail.
:-) I have 13k miles on this engine, and hope for quite a few more.
-=Russ=-
I'd drive it gently until it was warmed up, and then make sure to beat on it quite regularly to keep everything moving freely.
I'd perform regular maintenance on it, and try to replace things *before* they fail.
:-) I have 13k miles on this engine, and hope for quite a few more.
-=Russ=-
05-25-05, 09:51 AM
#14
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I think that ceramics/cermet could someday be great for the reliability and performance of the rotary engine. But it seems like it needs more R&D.
I have heard accounts from people (so this is second hand information...take it for what its worth) of some of the companies that do cermet coatings to rotor housings not coating the housings to exact tolerances. This could cause clearance problems and hurt the reliability and performance of the engine. I would love to spring for the cermet coated housings on my next rebuild, but I don't want to be a guinea pig...especially at those prices. BUT I do hope it will be a huge benefit in the future, once the "bugs" are worked out in its application to the rotary engine.
And to stay on topic, all I would do for a reliable engine is build an S5 with all new housings, irons, rotors, etc. with stock Mazda seals, remove the OMP, emissions, etc. and run a standalone. Regular maintenance would be another huge factor in reliability. And, of course, no turbo.
I have heard accounts from people (so this is second hand information...take it for what its worth) of some of the companies that do cermet coatings to rotor housings not coating the housings to exact tolerances. This could cause clearance problems and hurt the reliability and performance of the engine. I would love to spring for the cermet coated housings on my next rebuild, but I don't want to be a guinea pig...especially at those prices. BUT I do hope it will be a huge benefit in the future, once the "bugs" are worked out in its application to the rotary engine.
And to stay on topic, all I would do for a reliable engine is build an S5 with all new housings, irons, rotors, etc. with stock Mazda seals, remove the OMP, emissions, etc. and run a standalone. Regular maintenance would be another huge factor in reliability. And, of course, no turbo.
05-25-05, 09:55 AM
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I read the article about the ceramic apex seals. If they really do last that long under boosted situations like those described they'd be well worth it.
However for a reliable engine. s5 n/a, all emmisions removed, + regular maintence.
However for a reliable engine. s5 n/a, all emmisions removed, + regular maintence.
05-25-05, 11:25 AM
#17
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Now by "reliable" you mean she'll never break down on you on those long road trips, right?
That's been the story of my car's life, because of my long drives to work everyday (don't want to get stuck in the middle of a national forest at 1:30 in the morning, lol).
FWIW, here is the maintenance schedule I use on mine...
Replace coolant...(every) 30K
Replace thermostat...60K
Replace rad/housing caps...90K
Replace all hoses...120K
Replace water pump...120K
Replace main battery...2 yrs
Replace alternator...150K
Replace starter...225K
Replace spark plugs...15K
Replace plug wires...60K
Check all ECU inputs...Once a year
Replace fuel filter...30K
Clean/inspect pump filter...90K
Clean air filters (cone)...15K
Replace fuel pump...150K
Check tranny and diff fluids...15K
Replace tranny and diff fluids...60K
Rebuild clutch master & slaves...25K
Replace brake fluid...2 yrs
Lube front wheel bearings...30K
Replace front wheel bearings...90K
That's all directly off of a chart I use so I don't miss anything...Items like starters, alternators, fuel pump, and water pump are changed before they go bad- I use a best guess for life limit based on things I've read on the forum, past experience on my cars, etc...
That's been the story of my car's life, because of my long drives to work everyday (don't want to get stuck in the middle of a national forest at 1:30 in the morning, lol).
FWIW, here is the maintenance schedule I use on mine...
Replace coolant...(every) 30K
Replace thermostat...60K
Replace rad/housing caps...90K
Replace all hoses...120K
Replace water pump...120K
Replace main battery...2 yrs
Replace alternator...150K
Replace starter...225K
Replace spark plugs...15K
Replace plug wires...60K
Check all ECU inputs...Once a year
Replace fuel filter...30K
Clean/inspect pump filter...90K
Clean air filters (cone)...15K
Replace fuel pump...150K
Check tranny and diff fluids...15K
Replace tranny and diff fluids...60K
Rebuild clutch master & slaves...25K
Replace brake fluid...2 yrs
Lube front wheel bearings...30K
Replace front wheel bearings...90K
That's all directly off of a chart I use so I don't miss anything...Items like starters, alternators, fuel pump, and water pump are changed before they go bad- I use a best guess for life limit based on things I've read on the forum, past experience on my cars, etc...
05-25-05, 02:48 PM
#19
Could you link or attach that chart? I could easily make one (and that's a nice complete list), but... no need to reinvent the wheel.
Another thing that rotary engines (especially NAs) have going for them: It's very rare to blow both rotors at once. You can totally fry a rotor, and you still have half the engine running to get you home. Apparently with just one destroyed apex seal (so 4/6 chambers firing), you can still hit 100 in a NA.
-=Russ=-
Another thing that rotary engines (especially NAs) have going for them: It's very rare to blow both rotors at once. You can totally fry a rotor, and you still have half the engine running to get you home. Apparently with just one destroyed apex seal (so 4/6 chambers firing), you can still hit 100 in a NA.
-=Russ=-
05-25-05, 03:36 PM
#20
Lives on the Forum
Originally Posted by PureSephiroth
what's the highest mileage rotary you've owned wayne?
My first gen met an early death thanks to a couple of trees...
05-25-05, 03:42 PM
#21
Lives on the Forum
Originally Posted by Syonyk
Could you link or attach that chart? I could easily make one (and that's a nice complete list), but... no need to reinvent the wheel.
Another thing that rotary engines (especially NAs) have going for them: It's very rare to blow both rotors at once. You can totally fry a rotor, and you still have half the engine running to get you home. Apparently with just one destroyed apex seal (so 4/6 chambers firing), you can still hit 100 in a NA.
-=Russ=-
Another thing that rotary engines (especially NAs) have going for them: It's very rare to blow both rotors at once. You can totally fry a rotor, and you still have half the engine running to get you home. Apparently with just one destroyed apex seal (so 4/6 chambers firing), you can still hit 100 in a NA.
-=Russ=-
I have driven this car for almost 6 years now, and put about 120K on her since I bought it. Not once has she broken down on me in those 6 years (there's been a couple of times I've had to turn around and go back home, like the oil cooler line busting, but she always got me back home). I'm **** about maintaining the car and replacing things before they have a chance to break...
05-25-05, 04:00 PM
#23
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as far as the fd housings over fc housings, i think the fc rotor housing would be MUCH better for longevity, they have oil injectors on them and i think that helps tremendously, and if you really want to get into that, the renesis housings have two oil injectors per rotor housing, so i think those would be even better.
Hell i bet having a complete renesis engine would be the best setup for reliability out there. Although at sevenstock i talked to a guy that worked for a company in canada iirc that put a ceramic coating on the rotor housings and made ceramic apex seals. He told me they had test engines torn down after 200k miles that showed little to no wear at all, if thats true, i would think ceramic would be the way to go, but thats all second hand so who knows?
Hell i bet having a complete renesis engine would be the best setup for reliability out there. Although at sevenstock i talked to a guy that worked for a company in canada iirc that put a ceramic coating on the rotor housings and made ceramic apex seals. He told me they had test engines torn down after 200k miles that showed little to no wear at all, if thats true, i would think ceramic would be the way to go, but thats all second hand so who knows?
05-25-05, 04:13 PM
#24
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Yea a renesis engine would probably be the most reliable.
Maybe we should talk about putting together the most cost effective reliable engine? Not the cheapest way, but the most cost effective, thats worth it. Meh, interesting ideas non the least, thx guys this is good reading material!
Maybe we should talk about putting together the most cost effective reliable engine? Not the cheapest way, but the most cost effective, thats worth it. Meh, interesting ideas non the least, thx guys this is good reading material!
05-25-05, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Trueblue707
Go here:http://www.jhbperformance.com/
Use the "cermet a" rotor housings with the "cermet a" endplates, then get 3mm ceramic apex seals. Use all-new internals & polish rotors and all ports, convert the OMP to 2-cycle,... and have fun the rest of your life!(Make sure your grandkids are responsible drivers before you go tho...It could last that long if properly cared for).
Note: The car may not last that long, but the engine should, if not used for racing.
Wouldn't it be nice to be able to justify that amount of $$$?
Use the "cermet a" rotor housings with the "cermet a" endplates, then get 3mm ceramic apex seals. Use all-new internals & polish rotors and all ports, convert the OMP to 2-cycle,... and have fun the rest of your life!(Make sure your grandkids are responsible drivers before you go tho...It could last that long if properly cared for).
Note: The car may not last that long, but the engine should, if not used for racing.
Wouldn't it be nice to be able to justify that amount of $$$?
I have a cermet motor from mark!!!! **** is amazing ppl should look into it.
