cis2711

Tried to search for this but seems that i am the only one with this problem.

I have an 87 RX7 that runs great but when the time comes to turn the car off the engine continues to run with the key off and out of the ignition..

I have already replace the ignition switch and tumblers/the entire steering column. Same problem. Also if I don't disconnect the battery the battery will drain. I assume bad grounds but will that cause the engine to keep running with the key off? Also with the key off the BAC hums-obviously it is recieving current when the key is off.

I just replaced, one at a time, the four relays that are in the bumper with relays from an identical 87 RX7 that doesn't have my cutting off problem. That didn't work. I also swapped out each coil pack and the car still wouldn't turn off.

If anyone has any idea what might be causing this, thanks in advanced for the advice.

- Cole

arghx

iTrader: (3)

is the main relay on constantly? it is on the driver's side fender wall by the clutch master cylinder etc. i forget which pins you'll have to check but the coil in the relay should be engaging and disengaging as you move the key into the ON position. there is some kind of main relay check in the FSM, I think it's in the fuel and emissions section

HAILERS

Go start the car. Idle it. Turn it off.

Engine still running? Pull the small plug off the alternator and see if the engine now dies or not. Write back.

I'm suggesting the alternators small plugs wires are backfeeding the ENGINE fuse and that means the turning of the key to OFF will do you no good.

OR try this. Get the engine running. Turn the key OFF. Engine still runs. Now go to the interior fuse box and remove the ENGINE fuse. Engine will die.

The way things work is like this. ......When you put the key to ON, power goes thru the ignition switch and feeds two rows of fuses in the interior fuse box. One row is called IG1 and that row of fuses has the ENGINE fuse. The other row of fuses is the IG2 and that row has nothing to do with the engine running.

The ENGINE fuse when energized by the key being put to ON, in turn pulls in the Main Relay and also feeds the fuel pump. Turn the key to OFF, and now you de-energize the ENGINE fuse and thereby the Main Relay and fuel pump also.....engine now dies.

If the car is miswired in someway such as a battery bus is backfeeding the row of fuses called IG1, then turning the key to ON or OFF has zip to do with makiing the engine die. Ain't gonna happen. The battery bus is the row of fuses on the top of the interior fuse box with fuses like ROOM fuse etc.

IF an alternators small plug is miswired, then the alternator can back feed the bus called IG1 and thereby the ENGINE fuse and the engine will not die turning the key off.

Other things miswired can cause this backfeeding. Just about any wire that is fed from the batt bus that is miswired into another wire that is on the IG1 bus, will cause this backfeeding problem.

One fella on this forum had a plug near the clutch pedal that was on the batt bus, connected to another (wrong) plug who's wires were on the IG1 bus. Had the same problem as your experiencing.

Another way to turn this car off other than pulling the ENGINE fuse, might be pulling the BTN fuse in the engine bay fuse box. IT feeds batt power to the interor fuse boxes Batt bus (basically the fuses on the top row in the interior fuse box. It's late. Bye.

HAILERS

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...running&page=3

Read the last page of the thread above. The POST #'s are to the right of each post people make. Like this is post #4. In the thread above, see post #63.

This fellow had just about the same problem as you. IT took til POST #63 to figure out where the wiring was crossed up. Anything before that was just working up to post #63. These things can take time and EFFORT. Two things I have very little of. Work....yuck!

I'm not saying HIS problem is exactly YOUR problem to the tee, but your problem is similar..........batt bus backfeeding IG1 for unkown reasons at this time. Lots of miswired items can cause this.

Have you done any rewiring or alternator rework about the same time this problem arose?????

HAILERS

Here's where you might get a clue. Start the engine then turn the key to OFF and pull the key out. Engine still runs, right? So now kill the engine by putting the car in gear and with foot on the brake, stall the engine out.

Do the warning lights come on the warning cluster? Do your wipers work with the key off and remvoed? Do your turn signals work after doing the above?

Or if you kill it like that, do the wipers NOT work and there are NO warning lights?

Go48

iTrader: (7)

Has it done this since you've had this car? Is it a turbo?

cis2711

The car is an original N/A 87.

The main fuse is getting voltage at all times.

The 15A engine fuse under the dash is getting voltage at all times.

With the car running, turn key off and take key out car keeps running. Unplugged the two wire connector on backside of alt. and engine continued to run.

Unbolted positive wire on alt. and took off and the engine continued to run.

I then went into the car and at the fuse box under the dash removed the 15A engine fuse and engine died.


Now- if I have the car running with keys off or on run position and I stall the engine then the door and e-brake warning lights are on. after stalling it only with the keys in the run position will the wipers work. They will not work if the key is off.

If I have the connector on the back of the alt. loose and I'm pushing it in and pulling it out to make a break the connection there is a relay that I can HEAR click but not SEE that I think is located in the dash(I can hear it click through the firewall).

If I connect and dissconnect the battery I can hear that big metal relay(i assume it is a relay) click loudly. I'm talking about the metal covered relay that is located by the clutch master cylinder.

On a side note I noticed that my friend's RX7 has a plastic relay bolted right next to the metal relay I just described on my car, but I don't have this relay.

One last question, where is the MAIN relay located? I think that may be the one clicking that I can't see but I can hear from the dash when I'm unplugging and plugging the connector on the back of the alt.



I'm going to takes some photos today if I can to show you guys some connectors that aren't plugged in as well as something one of the previous owner did near the fuse box. He has three wires spliced into some wires there yet they aren't plugged into anything. It is obvious they were intended to provide switched 12V to gauges or aaccessories. The clutch switch has also been bypass and the wires are twisted together so the car can start without depressing the clutch... I hate when people mess with factory wiring.

g14novak

iTrader: (1)

Do you have a E-fan? Whats it wired through?

cis2711

No electric fan.

HAILERS:

I haven't done any alt. work on the car nor any re-wiring. I took out a nasty set of foglights one of the previous owners had installed and they did very SHOTTY work of it. I have to get some photos on here tonight to show you this wire I found that my friend who works with rx7's pointed out which wasn't from the factory.

Thank you HAILERS for your help so far. I read some of that post about the other guy and it seems as though that is exactly what is going on here. I will take my time and find out where this backfeeding is sourced. I just put the turboed Escort back on the road =) so I can have the rx7 parked while I fix it.

HAILERS

Another thing..........go to the ignition switch plugs which are approx a foot fwd of the switch itself. One plug has two wires. One BLACK fed by the MAIN FUSE the other black/white and IT feeds the IG1 row of fuses but only if the key is ON. No other time.


So, pull that plug apart and see if the ENGINE fuse still gets power in the interior fuse box. Should not. If it does, that is cofirmation that the ENGINE fuse is being backfed by something on the Batt bus.

If it does have power with the black/white and black wire disconneted from the switch, then try this other tack: Pull each of the fuses on the BATT bus in the interior one at a time and see if the problem goes south. Or barring that, pull the BTN fuse in the engine bay fuse box that feeds the interior fuse box's batt bus.

That's a clue, what you wrote about the wipers. Wipers are on the IG2 row of fuses. It seems your igniiton key is doing what it should with that row of fuses i.e. key to OFF kills power to that row of fuses. So your ignition switch seems to work right to some extent.

So look at those couple of lights that stay on that your mentioned above. Then first pull the BTN fuse in the engine bay and see what happens.

Sounds like a fun car to play with. At least to me.

There's lots of ways to work this and I named a few above. Not in any set order, just several ways that come to mind.

HAILERS

I've another thought. PUll the BW/B plug apart at the igniton switch. IF that kills the car.....suspect the switch itself. Shoulda said that first I suppose.

FYI: the Main Fuse should have power 24/7 days a week. Normal. Also note that the BLACK wire in the ignition switch plugs, gets fed from the Main Fuse in the engine bay.

So that's the way things work. Black wire feeds IG1 and IG2 and ACC busses in the engine bay when the key it turned to the right positon. The BATT buss in the interior fuse box gets fed not from the switch, but from the BTN fuse in the engine bay fuse box. Done for now.

HAILERS

When pulling the small plug off the alternator, and you hear clicking, that is the ALTERNATOR relay inside the CPU. Normal thing to hear. Supposed to pull in when the alt is not putting out and key is to ON. Fed by the METER fuse I believe, which is on the interior batt bus.

The big metal relay that is usually somewhat gold in color, is the MAIN RELAY which gets pulled in when you put the key to ON (normally that's the case). It's the ENGINE fuse that powers it up. IT always has a gnd on it 24/7, so it only takes the engine fuse getting power from the key for the main relay to pull in.

**********On a side note I noticed that my friend's RX7 has a plastic relay bolted right next to the metal relay I just described on my car, but I don't have this relay.**********8

That's probably the THEFT relay called the Starter Cut Relay in the FSM. It is usually relaxed and when so, lets power go to the starter solenoid from the igniton switch when key is to START. The only time it pulls in is when the THEFT UNIT detects a theft, then the relay pulls in and opens the circuit to the starter solenoid so the car won't start. Has two BG wires, one B/W wire and one LG/Y wire.

cis2711

HAILERS: I'm going home now to perform these tests. Are you in EST zone or CST zone for TX? I'll get back to you by tonight with results.

HAILERS

Central.

Series four cars with no THEFT don't get the starter cut relay. The get a large BLUE jumper connector and it's located beneath the TRAIL COIL ASSY. IF the starter works, no problem there then.

IF you had all the plugs off the ignition switch, and had a meter on ohms, then if you...........let me start again. I don't know the color of the wires the BW and B wires in the igniton switch plug mate with. Those two colors are on the part of the plug on the Front harness side of the plug, not the colrs of the wires in the igniton switch pigtail. BUT if you put the meters leads on the two wires in the half of the plug on the pigtail side, then the meter should show OPEN if the key is to OFF and should read continuity if the key is put to ON. IF it shows continuity with the switch in ON and OFF, then the ignition switch is hung up in the ON postion at least for the BW wire that feeds IG1, but evidently not hung up for the wire that feeds IG2 since you say the wipers will not work in OFF. Probably shouldn't have added that remark. Too much info in a helter skelter fashion.

cis2711

The ROOM 7.5A fuse is the culprit.


When removed the car turns off with the key! Yay.

Now how do I go about finding why this is the cause?

Just to clarify what has been fixed by removing the ROOM 7.5A fuse entirely.

This is with key not in iginition and battery hooked up:
With the ROOM fuse in place the main relay was always pulled and the warning lights for door and e brake were on. The fuel, voltage, temp., and oil pressure gauges would get voltage without the key in the ignition. If the shifter was in reverse the reverse lights would come on. The dome light would not light up bor would the hatch courtesy light. The engine would not stop running once the key was turned off either.

Now with the ROOM fuse removed the car will turn off when I turn the key to off position. The main relay relaxes. The gauges get no power when the key and car are off. The reverse lights will not come on when the shifter is in reverse with the car off. The warning lights for the door and the e brake stay off until the key is in and on the run or on position like they're supposed to. BUT my dome light and hatch light still never come on and the bulbs are GOOD I have tested them on 12V already. What else does the room fuse supply power to?

cis2711

Oh BTW nothing out of the ordinary happened when removing and replacing the METER fuse or other fuses in line with the ROOM and METER fuses it was only the ROOM fuse that was casuing the problem.

HAILERS

ROOM FUSE feeds pin 3J on the ECU small plug. Not likely that being the problem. But you could disconnect the small plug of the ECU and see if when the room fuse is installed, wheter or not the problem went south.

It also feeds the clock. Disconnect the Warning Light assy and see if that fixes the problem. Not toooo likely.

Here's a likely target. It feeds the ignition key reminder switch. I THINK that is a connector on the steering column near the ignition switch. I THINK it has a long cable on it and the connector has four wires. One is red, one black, one blue and one blue/red. EDIT: You know something, I"m really not that sure exactly where that plug is. Near the steering column but that's as close as I can get without going out and looking at my car.

It also feeds two wires to the THEFT CONTROL UNIT ...which you don't have. But the elect plug probably exists on your car near the glove box. It could be someone has tied a unkown device to the power wire there. See page 50-94 of the online wiring diagrams for that.

Also feeds the L/R wire on the radio. A prime suspect there. Unplug the plug on the radio that has the L/R wire and see what happens.

It also feeds the following; one wire goes into the CPU to feed some seatbelt warning unit........one goes to the ignition key cylinder light......one goes to the door lock cylinder lights........one goes to the interior and spot lights above your head.......two go to courtesy lights whatever those are.........one goes to the cargo room light......Page 50-74 of the online wiring diagrams for series four show those. Those wires would be Blue/Red in color.

I say RADIO. Could be a number of things. But in my mind, it has to be a elect plug that has a ROOM fuse wire in it, connected to another plug that has a wire in it that goes back to the IG1 row of fuses. Seems that way to me.

cis2711

This car seems to have had an aftermarket head unit as a radio. It is missing now and the hackjob on that radio is still left. Maybe that mess is a cause. I will have to go look. Let me go take some photos real quick.

HAILERS

Look for a Blue/Red wire at the radio, conneted to another wire. Seperate them if its easy to do.

cis2711

Pics to come soon I am taking them now. I am finding out a lot about this car I don't like. I mean there is ZERO rust on the car under the carpet but so far the radio mess was worse than I thought and the warning light assy wasn't a culprit. I found a cut off speaker wire behind the seats under the carpet. I am going to take out the seats and investigate.

HAILERS

I'm convinced you have the very same problem the fellow in the other thread had.

Remember how I mentioned the room fuse wire color is blue/red???? Meant to if I didn't. Well if you look at that other thread and post #62 and on, one of the plugs he mentioned had a Blue/Red wire in it (L/R) and was connected to the wrong *other* plug. That caused the backfeeding problem.

The picture in his thread does not Point to the plugs, he just describes which plugs he's talking about in his picture. I'll try to give you a better description later.

You might go to your clutch switch and see if there's a plug on it. If so, what are the wire colors on that plug? Not the interlock switch at the very top of the pedal, but the lower switch.

And go to the ignition switch. There should be a two wire harness going to the light bulb that lights up the ignition switch at night. I THINK it's a very long two wire harness with a plug on the other end. See if it's connected to anything....or not there at all.

cis2711

These are the three wires that a previous owner spliced in using those cheap 3M quick splices. I removed them and no change in backfeeding.







What is this connector to? It is located on the driver side under the steering column:




Here is a shot of the shotty job someone did to bypass the clutch switch:


This connector isn't plugged into anything...what does it go to?:




Here are the five plugs that are associated with the ignition switch. If unplugged one at a time they don't have any effect on relaxing the main relay so the ignition switch is not a player:



This white and red wire had tape on it so I removed it:



This is what I found. I taped back over it nicely and I don't think that it is causing any problems:




Look what I found behind the driver's seat..it isn't plugged into anything nor is it wired into anything instead it has been cut. I removed two tweeter speakers from both rear shock towers that had little wires going towards the front of the car behind the interior panels but I couldn't find where they were getting power..:




SHOTTY radio wiring from prev. owner:



These appear to be factory connectors:


HAILERS is this the wire you were talking about when you were tlaking about the radio?:

cis2711

This is dumb. I despise shotty wiring.:




The middle of these three connectors goes to the light that helps you locate where to put in your key at night. The right holds a blub and the left of the three I don't know where it goes:




This connector was behind the glove box in front of the blower motor:







This connector looks like it goes to the passenger side speaker in the dash:




I put that ROOM fuse back in with the key out of the ignition and let the main relay pull in. When I unplugged the warning light assembly the main relay did not relax. I also removed the outer face of the gauge cluster that holds the blinker box and headlight switches and hazard switch and unplugged each one at a time and the main relay did not relax.

cis2711

Okay I just went out there are dissconnected a two plugs and the relay relaxed...

It was exactly the same problem the other guy had. The two plugs together was the cause of the backfeeding.

one connector had Blu/Red Grn/Wht and the other had Ylw Blk/Ylw

Now where does each of these plug into?


Does Ylw & Blk/Ylw connector plug into the connector that has solid blk and solid orange wires?

Is the connector with grn/wht and blu/red supposed to power the little bulb that illuminates the key on the ignition?


I still don't have the dome light, key light, or hatch light come on when I open either of the doors or the hatch. The two map lights come on and off when depressed but the dome light won't come on at all ever and all those bulbs are good. Thanks for the help so far at least now my engine will cut off on command and my battery won't drain overnight.

HAILERS

The two wire plug with the B/Y and Y wires goes to the brake pedal switch on cars that HAVE cruise control. IF your car has no cruise control, tie it back to the harness with string and don't use it at all.

Cars with cruise control have a switch on the brake pedal that takes two electrical connectors. Cars without cruise control have a switch on the brake pedal with just one electrical connector.

On the cars with one plug, that plug is dedicated to the brake lights.

Cars with cruise control have one plug for brake lights and one plug dedicated to sending a signal to the Cruise Control unit to tell it that your stopping the car and to turn off the cruise feature.

The Mazdatrix jpg I attach isn't of much use other than to let you know there are two switches made for the brake pedal. One with two electrical jacks and one with just one electrical jack.

88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888 888888888888888888888

The ignition switch cylinder light gets the plug with G/W and L/R. IF memory serves there is a light bulb holder that goes into the key cylinder, and on this bulb holder are those two wires. Plus the wires are a foot or so long with an electrical plug on the other end. That plug on that long two wire harness plugs into the plug with L/R and G/W. I hope that makes sense. It's a little muddled. I think I'll have to actually go out and look at my car(s) later today and see for sure.