NZConvertible

An aftermarket computer is not required. I'm in the process of installing a digital temp display to measure post-intercooler temps, and most boost guages are have a scale that allows 0.5psi chnages to be seen. With these two tools it would be easy to get reasonably accurate before-and-after results.

I'm installing the temp display specifically so I can see how good or bad the stock IC works, and how successful some planned mods are.

ERAUMAZDA

So generally you have no clue how good or bad the stock IC works....Kinda weakens your previous statements huh...


Just messin with yeah

NZConvertible

On the contrary, I have a good idea when it works and when it doesn't from earlier testing, plus the heat-soak issue is well-known by anyone with half a clue about FC Turbos.

But I like I said I'm planning some mods that will hopefully lower intake temps and reduce heat soak, so I need measurements. There's no point in trying stuff if you can't tell how much difference it makes.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Not that I have any hard scientific data, but I have mounted a stock TII intercooler in a front mount config. I placed it directly in front of the support bar that runs accross the radiator opening. Findings are as such:

-turbo outlet pipe, after hard runs up to 100+ MPH is too hot to touch. Intercooler outlet pipe is only slightly warmer then ambiant. Intercooler is pleasently warm

-at idle, heat soak is obvserved in the intercooler outlet pipe, which quickly disappears even after the car moves slowly along at 10MPH. Intercooler is cool, and exhibits no heat soak (cooling fan draws air through).

-sustained high boost/high speed runs show the same as the first test

Boost levels were between 9 and 11 PSI on the stock turbo. No detonation was observed.

ERAUMAZDA

Yo, I just noticed that you are running a microtech and upgrade fuel system... I SAID STOCK TURBO STOCK with combination with stock fuel injections. Yeah you are going to see power gains.

Once again fuel creates horsepower. I don't dislike the FMIC...just like previously stated you have to find a nice balance. You are better off upgrading your Exhaust and intake and fuel until you yield...Then when you reach your max limit upgrade your turbo and slap a FMIC. Its the better order for upgrades.

dr.jones63

Speaking of FMIC's I just bought a pipe bender tool from a "traveling tent tool sale" If it works Im really in. It has a manual 12 ton press with interchangable dies for .5" to 2.5" pipe. Now Im going to try to custom fit my own tubing. I think I'll do my TID while I'm at it. It only cost $80. I love made in China.

NZConvertible

Once again you're confirming how little you know about how engines and EFI work. Fuel does not create power. Increased airflow with the correct amount of fuel is what makes power. Having an upgraded ECU and fuel system has absolutely no bearing on whether a FMIC is required or what gains (or losses) it will give.
While upgrading the intake and exhaust are logical first steps that most of us follow, even a completely stock car would see gains from a correctly sized FMIC (most turbo cars already have them remember). And what's this max limit you talk about? That makes no sense.

I think you should let this thread go, because you're not adding anything useful.

ERAUMAZDA

NZ... WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

I have said countless of times in this thread...that with upgrades the increase airflow/density fuel has to be managed and upgraded.

previously said in the thread

Ex: Decrease Intake temps increase density. You have more compressed in the chamber. Duh. What about fuel. Air is just the support for combustion.

Ex:FMICs can be an advantage if drag can be compensated with PSI and fuel upgrades.

Ex:More fuel equals more heat...not air...air does not create heat...it only supports and transfer heat. Intercooler do not magically give you more fuel, filters don't magically give you more fuel, and Nawsssssss doesn't give you more fuel.

I never said an upgrade ECU/and or fuel upgrades are grounds for determining if a FMIC is requires. However, if you do get a proper sized FMIC and have a computer to tune it with and/or fuel upgrades.....you yield more power...seeing that you have a proper sized FMIC.

I NEVER SAID THAT A FMIC WILL NOT GIVE YIELD YOU MORE HORSEPOWER.

I am agreeing with most of you guys...however there are a lot of people I know what have bought a FMIC and now there car is in for a rebuild or they run rich.

Proper sizing is the key.



MY INITIAL POST SAID THIS:
When using the stock turbo the FMIC will hurt you. You will suffer from increase turbolag and you will see lower PSI figures. FMICs can be an advantage if drag can be compensated with PSI and fuel upgrades.


Hell the way you guys are making it......why don't N/A cars have intercoolers. You guys seem way to obessed with FM intercoolers. FMIC is the not the only means to getting horsepower.

Every one is saying "I don't see any lag".....cause you cranked up the boost and you added more fuel. You will not notice the lag...you compensated.


This is comment that is right on the head......dead. on. right.

You guys fail to understand that.

Just look at this post:
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=217506

His EGT went up....because now the turbo has to work harder.

To get better reponse....a FMIC is not the only means. I swear you guys think that it gods gift to cars. I am not saying we shouldn't bow down to the great ole FMIC...however you guys make it seems like you made human scarifices for it. Carlos in the NHRA is doing 9's in his all motor FB..no turbo and no intercooler.

You guys don't understand the lost horsepower/lag is being masked with boost. However, now since the air is cooler I you go ahead and add more fuel.

No matter how you look at it you will lose PSI with a FMIC....you compensate that lag with boost and fuel. The stock Turbo, ECU, and TMIC or FMIC can only do so much untill you have to upgrade that turbo and injetion system.

NZ was saying
Wastegate
Driveline
and proper tuning was not relative to this thread.

ERAUMAZDA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FMICs can be an advantage if drag can be compensated with PSI and fuel upgrades. The reduction of induction tempatures and power of an upgrade turbo will provide safer boost levels. There are things you have to take in consideration. Rotation mass of the driveline (flywheel), the effectiveness of the turbine, and proper tuning. All these can increase the speed of the turbine and pump in more atmospheric air into the inlet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NZ

Compensate for drag? If you have to add boost to compensate for a FMIC, you've stuffed up. And FMIC's don't alter mixtures. The rest of what you said really didn't make much sense or have much relevance...




A lightflywheel will spool your turbo faster.
An effective turbo will provide you better response and power.
And yes power tuning will give you overall better performance.

It is all relavent.
Peope jump to spend 1000 dollars on a FMIC and so afraid to spend 600 on an exhaust or headers.

People fail to see that upgrade ingition well provide a smoother ride and better reponse.

Upgrade clutch will provide more HP at the wheels.

FMIC are nice and all, why do things backwards. Upgrade from *** forward.

btw:My post were more focused on Rxse7en..which I actually seen his setup in person.

I am not saying that you guys don't upgrade your clutch and or exhaust and fuel. However, it seems like everyone is like "Hey, I am going to get a FMIC and overlook the rest of the car.


BTW NZ: Yes I do how water/alcohol injection. I installed them on aircrafts. ADI doesn't alter the mixture of the F/A ratio because the water particles are in a fine mist and the water droplets do not displace the o2 in the air.

I install and now way more advance turbo systems than the ordinary car tuner.

Over and over again you keep saying "my lack of knowledge in EFI You have no idea what I do or know. It is very hard to explain a concept with text..well for me I guess

I install and tune turbos on aircrafts which have more moving devices than a wastegate and a BOV.

I have to deal with Density controllers which utilize upper deck pressures and differential pressure controllers. I have also deal with Variable vane type turbochargers and turbochargers for cabin pressure. I am a lab tech and work on reverse flow turbines which is pretty much a larger turbocharge with compressor blades connected to the turbos center shaft.

Your 747 and airbuses have turbochargers......I deal with all these things and lack of knowledge in things like this is the difference between life or death. On a car....turbocharging is suppose to be fun...not a battle between TMIC and FMIC. I just feel that you don't need a FMIC to gain anything with basic mods on an FC....with progress upgrade...a FMIC is worth the invest ment. I don't think 6 to 9 PSI is a reason for me to dump a 1000 into a FMIC.....I don't have the money for that.

Go to Puerto rico and tell me what they think about FMIC...most don't even use them. LOL. That is what I like about Puerto Ricans...they know how to get lots of horsepower without spend big buxs.

BlackFC

You will not loose boost going to a FMIC, you are dead wrong on this point, period. If you used crushbent or flex piping and a piece of **** starion core sure you may loose boost, but with good mandrel bent piping and a proper core it just wont happen.

Daniel

ERAUMAZDA

ERAUMAZDA

OMG.....If you take a gauge and tap the inlet side of a FMIC and tap the outlet side. YOU WILL HAVE A DIFFERENTIAL PSI!!!!!!!!!!!!

it will be as low as 1psi to 2 psi up to 3 or 4 psi.

What law of pyshics do you run by.... there will be a differential pressure.

This goes for oil filter...hydraulics, fuel filters, and ETC.
This is the whole reason why airplanes fly.

Geez

NZConvertible

This has been explained already. In case you missed it, the ECU monitors air temperature in the manifold, and thus is able to compensate for changes in air density accordingly. The higher airflow will also be measured by the airflow meter.
The simple fact is many people have installed a FMIC without making any physical alterations to boost control or fuel systems and the car has gone better as a result. Why can't you accept this?
See, this is what I mean about you not understanding engines. Adding fuel (i.e. richer mixture) reduces heat, because the fuel evaporates in the chamber (absorbing energy) but isn't burnt (no oxygen left). Lean mixtures run much hotter, incresing the likelyhood of detonation. This is the very reason why you need richer mixtures if you increase boost, and why stock ECU's always run very rich full-load mixtures. The extra fuel lowers the air temps that would otherwise cause detonation. Adding a better intercooler might increase boost, but the lower air temps mean richer mixtures are most likely not required. And I've already explained about filters, etc.
And yet when people posted experiences contrary to this, you conveniently ignored them. Are they liers or just stupid?
And yet nearly every manufacturer uses them. Your explanation?
This again? Who said they cranked up the boost? No-one I remember. Many people who install correctly sized intercoolers see more boost as a result of improved intercooling, but that's due to more efficient combustion. Instead of compensating for losses, the extra boost is a result of the change. Same with fuelling. Unless the engine is already highly modified, the ECU will easily compensate for increased airflows with more fuel to maintain mixtures.
See above...
Once again you fail to make any allowance in your theory for the size and construction of the intercooler and piping. A less restrictive core and correctly sized pipes could easily have the same or less pressure drop than the standard intercooler. So again, see above...
A lighter flywheel will make the engine rev up faster. An engine revving faster will obviously bring the turbo up faster.
There are many people out there with effective upgraded intercoolers that cost a lot less than that. If you think bucket loads of money is the only way to upgrade your car, then you're very much mistaken.
Who said they didn't? What has that got to do with intercoolers? Stay on topic.
That's a really silly thing to say. Unless the clutch is slipping it will have absolutely no effect on power at the wheels. How could it?
Who here has said that? I can't remember anyone on this board ever saying "I want a FMIC for my stcok FC". But you're still ignoring that fact that there are significant gains to be seen from eliminating the significant heat-soak problem caused by the stock intercooler's location. Like I've said, it works okay at high speed, but poorly at low speed. A FMIC does not have this problem, no matter what size it is.
So you inject water into the airstream, but this doesn't take the place of air? Wow, you've just broken some fairly fundamental laws of physics! A certain mass of water takes up the same volume whether it's in one blob or millions of droplets. This should not need to be explained to someone who installs water injection for a living.
So the concept of more effective intercooling should be second nature to you. Yet it doesn't seem to be...
You're right, I know nothing about you. I gauge what you know by what you write, nothing else. That's all I'm responding to.
Would that be the cars running methanol?
Of course you will, you'll see exactly that with the stock intercooler too.
That depends entirely on the intercooler you use (I'm getting sick of pointing out that simple idea). If you install in intercooler that's less restrictive than the stock one, you'll measure a smaller pressure drop than before. An improvement! Yes, it can be done!
BTW, I calculate pressure drops in pipe and duct systems as part of my job, so I know a little about this.

Bearing in mind all the reasons you've stated for not installing a FMIC, I'll ask again, please explain to me and everyone else why nearly all factory turbocharged cars come standard with intercoolers mounted at the front.

wai

after I installed the FMIC , I notice there is pressure drop . BUT the power and throttle response is better.
( i am using the old style Greddy FMIC with stock turbo,
and running 8 psi)

BlackFC

Well no ****, I was talking in reference to the situation we are arguing about, the stock TMIC vs. a Proper FMIC. Obvisouly no intercooler at all would be the best thing, but without running alcohol or very low boost thats just not possible.

You can take it out of context however so you look right, I really don't mind.

SureShot

So - I've got nothing better to do tonight but read through this pissing contest??

BlackFC

The best part is, half of the argument has no practical expierience to backup his oral diarreha. I am done with this, I will be fast and he can be right, doesn't really matter all that much to me what anyone on this forum thinks anyway.

Daniel

ERAUMAZDA

Once again.....assumptions.

I hope you are not related to me, seeing we both have the same last name

Ready Corky Bells book on Turbo's and FMIC. I will gladly photocopy the page for viewing pleasure.

NZConvertible

Please do.

boosted1205

iTrader: (9)

Thanks Jason, I needed a laugh after a long day

BlackFC

I read it about 5 years ago.

Daniel

93autoFdTO4z

On my Fd I hav a 5" Apexi intercooler .
Mazda FTW !

dwb87

iTrader: (22)

^ So......... You felt the need to resurrect a nine year old thread in the second generation section.


Sir, you take the cake.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

WOO HOO!!!!

barkz

iTrader: (1)

youre a ******* moron

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)