Grunswald

Hi,

my best mate has killed his turbo on his 200sx and is planning to get a new gt25 and therefore would go close to 300hp.

I don't want to be left behind, but i don't want to aim too high.

The car is currently being rebuilt by carl hayward and i will be low on cash in the end.

So basically, when I get back y car i will have (powerwise):
s5 turbo 2 engine rebuild with 3mm apex
stainless steel exhaust 3" (no cat)
rtek 1.5
FD fuel pump
cleaned injectors
ligthened flywheel + counter weight
O2 wide band + gauge
turbo pressure, oil temp, oil pressure gauge
stainless steel charge pipe
ITG foam air filter (same shape as original)

i don't know what power i can expect for the moment, i'd like to say between 220 and 240hp, but i'm afraid to be too optimistic.

I don't want to port the engine at the moment.
Carl hayward talked to me about a plan for 500hp without porting that would be great but out of my budget for the moment.

i was thinking about =>750cc injectors, rtek 1.8 and FD intake manifold with fd throttle body.

although i already take next 0.9 bar on cold day. i don't know if the turbo would cope with those mods or if i should go for a turbo that can go at higher pressure ?

is there any gain to change the exhaust manifold (considering it would be to change for a cheap one) ?

K-Tune

iTrader: (26)

Stock turbo will limit you to ~270hp at the rear wheels.

Evil Aviator

I don't see any significant advantage to the FD intake manifold and FD throttle body. The FC parts are fine.

The S5 already has a pretty good exhaust manifold, so the main advantage of an aftermarket exhaust manifold is to mount a better turbo. If you are using the stock turbo then I don't see much point in this.

Higher pressure is probably your best bet. In America, the usual low-budget modification is to upgrade the stock turbo. This will have more lag and less efficiency than a properly-sized turbo, but it is a good way to make more power on a restricted budget. Below is a link showing a typical upgrade. You can probably get a similar service performed in France. The level of build will determine the appropriate fuel system upgrades.
http://gonzaloherrero.com/bnr/index....d=67&Itemid=89

misterstyx69

iTrader: (142)

Fd manifold basically just makes the engine bay look a little less compacted...more user friendly to get to stuff under it.
If you want to keep up with your buddy then you will have to open your wallet or eat Mac and cheese,as this quest for power comes with a price tag.
RTEK 2.1,BNR Stage 3/4..750/1200 injectors,Fuel pressure regulator,upgraded fuel pump,3 inch exhaust.Front mount intercooler..
should I go on?

Grunswald

ok the new intake was just something i was thinking of as carl hayward told me it's what he is doing for 500hp setup without porting.

Although as you said, i suppose it's useless without changing the turbo. without increasing the pressure i believe the intake is big enough...

I've checked those turbo hybrid, having more lag is not really my goal... I'm already "left behind" in the twistys uphill by the civics... i hope it's mainly because my engine was dead but still, i prefer a reactiv car to a powerful one...

Something that could be interesting is those new variable scroll turbos (not sure if that's the exact naming in english). One of my friend got one on his 200sx and it's amazing, it picks up at really low rev and keep going for a really long time... but those are expensive...

i'm not really good at calculations so with stock injectors (4x550cc) + fd fuel pump (don't know what is the L/h of it) do you have any idea on what kind of pressure i can hit without damaging the engine ? moreover that the rtek chip allow more overlapping of the injectors. From what i initially calculated, running at 0.7 bar was good (AFR is around 12/13 on full load at the moment). I was thinking if i use a digital boost controller set to 0.9 bar, if i understand correctly the principle of the controller, i should be able to reach the 0.9 bar faster and more consistently (not only during winter days).

Am i right or not ?

Grunswald

the idea is that, once i'm settled with the rebuild, that my second car is running correctly and that my bank account is in better shape, i'm thinking of bringing the car back in uk this time for an heavy preparation as you propose.

I was just looking at some cheap way to gain some hp. As my engine is almost stock, usually the first hp are the easiest to gain...

the boost pressure regulator seems to me like something i should go for to optimize the car... but i'm not sure

misterstyx69

iTrader: (142)

The thing to be aware of though is that if you modify say the exhaust and intake(like cone filter or whatever) the engine is going to act better.
BUT,that means that you are going to be still stuck on the stock ecu.

On the cheap side,My idea would be Rtek 1.8(720 or 750X4) and a 3 inch exhaust(downpipe at least),good intake.
The Rtek should take care of any boost creep.

I'm sure other guys will chime in on this.I just got fed up with stock stuff and went NUTS and bought an ECU,T4 turbo and so on.
...My Kraft dinner needs Ketchup..

wthdidusay82

iTrader: (15)

I got the rtek 1.7 but Ive yet to see what afr's I'm running under full boost , rtek is definitely a great ecu upgrade.

Molotovman

iTrader: (49)

A great ECU upgrade is a standalone........

The best thing to do is save up and buy all the right stuff. 300whp is a modest goal, your engine builder is right talking about 500whp if you're going to make a jump.

If 500 is your goal now, don't waste time and money with an RTek, BNR Turbo, or anything to support 300whp.

Have the engine rebuilt for 500whp, save and then buy a standalone, larger IC kit, and put together a fuel system that will support the power.

Things you can buy now are gauges you will need, FPR, and a fuel pump to support your goal.

wthdidusay82

iTrader: (15)

Not everyone has $1000 bucks for a standalone , I stand on what I said that its a great ecu upgrade for cars not running insane HP/boost.

For $150 dollars its well worth the money, even if just to use until you can afford a standalone.

Grunswald

i already have a 3" exhaust (down pipe included) and a flat foam filter, normally less restrictive than the stock paper or k&n filter. I'm not willing to go for the cone filter directly in the engine bay due to the heat of the bay possibly affecting the filter performance.

and i have an rtek chip, but only the 1.5 as i'm still using stock injectors. so far, even under full boost i don't go over 14. Actually, when i'm really hard on the throttle i'm around 12-12.5, a bit rich but i would be more scared if it was the other way round.

usually under full boost i'm at 0.7 bar. but on cold day and really long and hard acceleration i can reach 0.9 bar. but most of the time i only reach 0.4. Usually it's on 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear, it's really hard to reach 0.7bar. That might be because i had poor compression in the engine. But i also think if i had a boost controller i could set it to 0.7 bar to be able to reach it faster and on all 5 gears. also i could gradually push to 0.9 bar and check if my afr remains consistent. If i still have no issue at 0.9 bar, I suppose it means that for the moment i don't have to upgrade my fuel system. From what i understand the grand maximum that can deliver the stock turbo is 1 bar. I think if i push it to 0.9 bar, i keep a safety limit and I should be ok.

What do you think ? my idea makes sense or is it just stupidity ?

wthdidusay82

iTrader: (15)

stock Turbo is inefficient after 12 psi and even the stock inter cooler is inefficient even before that, it will cause you to run high intake air temps which causes detonation, doesn't matter if you have enough fuel.

Getting an alcohol injection kit will reduce chances of.detonation , it lowers intake air temps, increases octane rating, and makes engine run cleaner, it also gives you a little more hp , I'd look into getting one.

I have one , I just have to install it , ill be using it as a fail safe and not.running anymore boost than I would without it...that way if.anything did go wrong with its function it won't cause a blown engine.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

unless you got lucky and have a thick cast S5 JDM engine it won't support 500whp with just the 3mm seals.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i show the stock fuel system to be able to handle approximately 250hp, and at the boost you are running its probably maxed out.

actually 12.5 is not rich at all. in fact a stock car would probably be richer

nepopolus

you can get a megasquirt for a lot less then 1000$ and it is a amazing standalone than can easily handle a rotary. If you are going for 500whp I would not trust a chipped ecu anywhere near those power levels.

Molotovman

iTrader: (49)

Here's an idea. Stop giving bad advice and thread crapping the classifieds because you're a cheap ***.

Grunswald

hold on please.

Just to clarify, i'm not searching to reach 500hp. 500hp would be my goal maybe in two years and the plan is to give the car to carl hayward, say "hi i want 500 hp" and then pick the car one month later.

At the moment i doesn't interess me as :
- I don't have the money
- Before having that kind of power, i want to stiffen the chassis and get bigger brakes for example.

My target would be 300hp at the moment or at least optimize the car without getting in too much effort.

so i'll try to analyze everything in order :

stock turbo and temp : 12PSI = 0.82 bars, if i get that for all gear ratio i'll be happy, boost controller can help or not ? the stock TMIC may not be enough, i don't really understand, sometimes it's said to cope for up to 350hp, sometimes that it's already maxxed out with the stock conf...

euro s5 FC are based on the jdm later model normally (at least mine is)

my fuel system is not completely stock, i got a fd fuel pump and the rtek map optimize the fuel delivery. Till i run under 14 afr when i'm in full load, i suppose i'm not lean, and therefore i'm ok. that's not how it is supposed to be ?

finally for the megasquirt (not really relevant as i'm not targetting 500hp at the moment), i planned to get one on my mx5 before i had the fc, but for the price of a new megasquirt, i can have a second hand apexi power fc which even if it may do the same as the MS would comfort me better (all the tuner around my place know there way around power fc, lots of great build made with those, etc...)

RXSpeed16

iTrader: (41)

Hitting an AFR of 14 under boost is very dangerous territory. It is a clear indication you're maxing out the fuel system at .7 bar.

As for upping the boost, others have experimented and found the general guidelines for injector sizing, pump sizing, intercooler upgrades, etc....At that point, you are trading safety margin for the extra performance. You just have to decide if the risk is worth it.

Edit: A boost controller can raise boost to whatever you want. However, the turbo is not designed to flow that much air efficiently.
The only way the TMIC can handle 350hp is with alcohol/water injection. With the stock turbo, it's usually limited to 12 psi.
RTek 1.x's do not modify the fuel maps. They only account for larger injectors, depending on the version. They only pull a little timing above 8psi.
Tuning rotaries is very different from normally aspirated piston engines. 12.5's and under is a very general target for the boost you are running.

nepopolus

I really doubt that the stock top mount can actually hurt the car to the point of massive negative outcomes, even if you do up the boost. I would keep it for as long as the stock turbocharger remains on the car. Sure they are not the best option in terms of cooling but I do not see a point in upgrading your intercooler at all on any stock turbocharged car.

keeping the boost at a constant 12 psi will not happen on a stock turbocharger, they will creep despite wastegate porting on the high rpms.

what is your afr under full load? rich is always better then lean. The only thing being a little rich will do is possibly hinder max performance and burn a bit more gas.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

why would you need to spend money on a big brake kit before the power? unless the car is tracked, i can understand.

it bothers me that people seem to think that the factory 4 pot brakes are not up to standard, they do perfectly fine for most driving conditions. i have a customer with 500whp on a street driven FC which is heavier than it was when it rolled off the delivery truck, and he has never complained about inferior braking even when he does aggressive canyon runs with cliffs on either side, riding the liter biker's asses.

Grunswald

my afr is usually around 11.5 at the moment when i hit the pedal then goes back to 12.5 and stay around that till i lift my foot...

When i was talking about 14 it's just to say that i was thinking about raising gradually the boost (while staying in the possibility of the stock turbo) and that as long as the afr is not really lean under load i would be good. So let's say as long as i remain around 12.5 under full load, i'm fine.

for the big brakes, i thought it would be necessary to cope with huge performance. Again, i'm the only one near my area with a fc, all the rest drive civic or 200sx, people with 200sx seems to use cayenne brake disc or jaguar disc etc here... I actually never had any issue with my brake (poterfield s4r pad + braided line), just had a bit of fading after a 2 hours hard drive on road i didn't know and i was always on the brake...

all in all, i still don't really know what i should do... maybe it's better for me to stay with the power i have at the moment and go directly for the big numbers once i'm ready...

wthdidusay82

iTrader: (15)

Fyi, all my information comes from research and informative conversations with people like the owner of bdc motor sports.

Also I'm not.cheap , I'm honest and I treat people as I would like to be treated.

nepopolus

It depends what you want it for, all power will do is make things break faster after a point. You could always mod other things on the car to build it up to the point where it would be able to take a 500hp engine easily, Suspension, Chassis(bracing and aero), Drivetrain will all need to be accounted for if you want it to be able to utilize the power on a track.

I would do the basic mods and ecu chip to get the most out of the stock turbocharger while still retaining most of the factory reliability. While doing so watch the classifieds for good deals on parts you will need on the horsepower build.

Evil Aviator

I haven't looked recently, but none of the first batch of VATN turbos were a good match for a 13B application.

500hp will have a lot of lag. Boost increases at the square of turbine RPM, so the turbo is going to need to take some time to spool up enough to make that kind of hp out of a little 13B engine. An efficient, fast-spooling turbo like the Garrett GT-R or GTX-R turbos will help reduce this lag. Cheaper turbos will increase the lag. If you haven't figured it out yet, the biggest factor in a car's performance is your wallet.

The stock brakes are fine. Don't waste money replacing them unless you are building a GT track car. It sounds like your pads are fine too. Just make sure you are using a good street performance brake fluid like ATE Super Blue / Typ 200. The 200SX in stock form is a crappy family car, so it is no wonder that it requires a lot of performance modifications if the owner tries to convert it to a sports car.

Intercooler requirements vary with many factors, such as temperature, humidity, altitude, fuel octane, turbo efficiency, boost level, and tuning. For example, you could read on the internet that the stock intercooler is good for 500hp, the fine print being that the engine was bridge ported and running low boost, professionally tuned at high altitude in a humid area (the "500hp" being dyno corrected of course), and running on 116 motor octane race fuel with methanol injection. This is why you should not use the internet for tuning advice, such as debating AFR readings from a cheapie AFR meter under uncontrolled conditions.

It is always best to use an EMS that has local support. However, note that the RX-7 PFC only fits the FD RX-7, and therefore will not work in your car without modifying the harness or using a harness adapter. See this link:
APEXi Power FC Adapter Kit (89-91 RX-7)

If you don't want to upgrade the stock turbo to a hybrid right now, then I think you are better off just waiting and going for the big numbers all at once.

Grunswald

Hum...

Ok i think i will just stay with the basic mods, among those basic mods, do you see something i could do ?

i think that my chassis is correct at the moment as I don't have any weird movement or body roll. for the chassis, i have:
-front and rear upper strut bar
-full PU suspension silent bloc
-mazdaspeed diff silent bloc
-rear camber adjusting rod
-BC racing coilovers with front upper pillow ball plate
-brakepad potterfield s4r
-braided brake line
-brake fluid motul RBF 600 (not 100%sure, but it should be)
-wider rims than stock (7" front 8" rear)

that should be all. I thought about getting bigger anti roll bar, but i don't feel any roll at the moment even with the coilover set to very soft...