Exessive26

I have a lot of drifting experence with both cars and the
FC is very prone to "snap over steer" were as the 240 is slightly more predicable with it's over steer.

ForsakenRX7

And that trick is....?

khemfusion

I'd just be content with knowing that in a real race you'd blow away the Two-Fourty and Eight-Six

InitialD FC

iTrader: (1)

Ok... here is my input on FC's and other drift cars...

My FC is built for drift only. I run JIC FLT-A2s, ST sway bars, toe eliminators, 10 pt cage, and has a ATS Deftforce diff. (in regards to drift susp mods)

It oversteers now more than ever, it rotates on a dime, the front end stays planted no matter how hard i cut in, even when i am slamming the brakes for a feint. As soon as the car is out, it is relatively very easy to control, and comes out of the drifts very nicely with a lil bit of power. But what you have to watch out for is our lack of steering angle, the car will not rotate as far as 240's, people dont realize that drifting a FC well is like drifting a 240 perfect, because 240s just drift themselves. FC's have more grip and you must go faster to perform a nice drift without catching traction in the middle of it.

As soon as i get back from Cali ( i was in the D1 driver search ), i will be developing a steering rack that provides more angle. I have gone too far with this car to just give up and buy a 240.

Here is what i realized when comparing FC's to 240s for drift...

FC comes with 5 lug and 4 piston brakes, 240s need 300zx susp.
FC comes turbo and can make 250hp for under $1k, 240's need SR for that.
FC come with a LSD, and a clutch type in S4, 240s can only buy vlsd's for 300.
FC's come with better seats, 240s feel like your going to fly out.
FC's have a firmer stock susp.

I know a few of these mods are generally swapped out, but im talking from a get your *** drifting perspective.

ForsakenRX7

In terms of drifting...what is the better differential (I know this is a lil off topic but since we're talking about drifting.)?

InitialD FC

iTrader: (1)

if you are talking in regards to clutch vs. torsen, clutch all the way, it locks up quicker and harder than torsen, torsen takes a second to respond, then locks up the other tire...

if you are talking in regards to companies, i run the ATS differential because they offer the Deftforce line, a drift specific diff which is a 16 disc 2 way clutch style differential, the regular ATS has 12 disc which is plenty for most people and isnt so noisy for daily driving. the deftforce sounds like someone hitting your car with a sledgehammer when you are in parking lots. the clamping pressure is that insane.

kaaz diff's are also nice, but are similar to all the other clutch style differentials, not a drift specific differential.

Silvia_S13

from owning a 240 i can tell you that coilovers are definetly not necessary to drift, and they shouldnt be necessary to drift. kybs and a nice set of springs are definetly not bad, they will work fine. basically youll just want harder springs in the back, which the HE has. you wont have that super cool JDM coilover setup, but youll save some big time cash. i think the reason the FC may be harder to swing around intially is because of the better LSD. most 240s dont even have one, and if they do its a viscous lsd.

theres also the tension rods thing, which has already been explained well.

also stock, 240s have small wheels which are easier to break loose, FCs i believe have wider wheels.

240s are longer i think, they sure look longer anyways, which is easier to keep broken loose after the initial breaking of the tires

the different powerband of the rotary could be a factor as well, it takes more torque than the rotary can put out at lower rpms i believe. every drift video i have shows the RX-7s, both FC and FD, doing a major feint before every big drift to help them get that back end around.

another thing is dont underestimate the importance of nice tires up front. rear tires are dependent on your wallet and hp range, but the stickier up front you can get, the easier it will be to whip the car around and hopefully reduce understeer

im almost off work so i might have forgotten a few points, but hopefully this will give some insight from a S13 guy

yeoldepirate

Common man, don't give up now! You've ridden in my car, and I know it's not that bad! Just gotta replace that clutch, and the toe bushings! We gotta stick it out! Get some stiffer springs in the rear, I know it'll help, and your lack of low-end kinda hurts too. Once I get my new clutch and make it back out to tracks for DS, I'll let you try my car!

slidingsky

I may end up getting the 240, but I still with keep my 7s.
Just finished my FMIC so I will have the car out soon.
Sorry I cant give out the exact idea, but the new steering rack is on the right track. Maybe a GM aftermarket one will fit close.

slidingsky

OH and about the torsen sliding. I got the torsen for $300. Im building a drift and a street car. So the torsen will end up back in the street car, but anything is better than the viscous for drift, except an open. I do want a 2way clutch, but the stock is usless.
Oh an intersting thing is Haruguchi slides a 1 way. The torsen will respond like a 1 way. It is a great stock lsd to slide on. Just as long as you arent cranking tons of torque. People can think about how the torsen will respond theoretically, but untill you get in a car with a torsen you can only guess. Its great for all around and street driving.

protlewski

well i don't own a 7 and im gearing up to buy a S13 and swap a RB20DET into it. The car itself is $750 and it needs body work but im gonna put a kit on it anyways and the engine has like 190K miles on it so **** why not?

Infini IV

Haraguchi's underpinnings/suspension and steering work is not even a stock FC .... The whole geometry is different.

RETed

Boy, it gets real weird when people start talking out their asses...

I got some decent seat time this past drift session down here in Hawaii.&nbsp If you don't know it, I'm helping slidingsky with his car.&nbsp I got to see first hand how the FC compares to an S13 (hatch, stock KA) when trying to drift.&nbsp First of all, slidingsky's FC was kinda messed up - he was trying all 450# springs for some odd reason.&nbsp With a stiffly sprung car, the suspension reacts a lot faster, which didn't help.&nbsp I was more worried the E11 was going to blow up his engine, but we managed to get some good seat time trying to figure what was wrong - slidingsky was driving all wrong.
After getting a better at the throttle control, the sliding was getting a lot more consistent.&nbsp Next time, we'll tune the Koni race shocks and maybe mess with the tire pressures.&nbsp The other guy with the S13 is one of the top drifters in Hawaii (well, I consider him to be).&nbsp He runs clean lines, but with the stock KA, he doesn't have too much power on top - all the SR20 swap car look a lot more spectacular because of the power.&nbsp He insisted I take a ride with him, so I eventually gave in.&nbsp Due to the lack of power, he handbrakes the car DEEP into the turn.&nbsp This points to two things - 1) lack of power, and 2) the rears get a lot of grip.&nbsp The "double wishbone" suspension out back is probably why the car has such nice grip in the rear.&nbsp The FC tends to snap around real quick, but this can be tamed somewhat with the DTSS eliminators and some suspension tuning.&nbsp The Silvia guys get it easy having such a slow rotation of the car.&nbsp The extreme castor trail up front also helps attain such crazy slip angles in the chassis.&nbsp We're working on some tricks to get the FC to get close to what the stock S13's have in terms of steering angle though.&nbsp I think the next time slidingsky posts on his drift experiences on the track, we'll have a lot more tuning done on the suspension to get the car a lot more predictable...



-Ted

JagdStealth

Ted,

Are you simply helping him out or do you run some sort of shop that specializes in matters like this?

I'm working on setting my FC up for drifting and would like to chat about various things if possible!

RETed

Right now it's just individual technical assistance...

We're trying to get some kind of reasonable drift set-up for the FC to combat all the hachi's and 240's out there.&nbsp I'm well connected with K2RD and Battle Version, so we're trying to develop parts for the FC that should be able to make the car drift a lot easier.

I'm still rather new to the whole drift set-up thing, so I'm learning myself.&nbsp I'm applying my regular race (i.e. grip driving) knowledge to adjust for drift set-ups for now.


-Ted

n4ji

iTrader: (1)

Would the fact that a 240 has an open differential and an FC has a LSD make any difference? my brother and I were coming home tonight (95 240sx se) and we were having some good ol' open diff-fun!

RETed

Well, the particular S13 I was in had a VLSD in it...
Open diffs are scary.


-Ted

n4ji

iTrader: (1)

Open diffs are fun... especially in the rain.

mazdized

Ted this is the Doctor. I don't want to discredit you but I have to say what I personally exprienced with this whole thing. I am the guy who ran Iketan and RSR and D1 with the black NA fc and yellow turbo FC. ( those were not my cars, I would not let my car get that ugly) At Drift day 6 I had the pleasure of driving Henry's s13 from Motor sport Dynamics with a stock SR20 with exhaust, intercooler, adn Tein coil over struts. Also I brought my 146 rear wheel HP S5 with silver KYB and 350 ib. front springs and 275 rears. First of all I have tried various spring rates on the yellow car all the way up to 650 front and 550 rear, well nothing seems to work. It just has a very little amount of angle I can work with and it either is coming around or straightening back out, so I always have to calcaulate just right or else I would have a difficult time keep the drift going. There is almost no point where it will hold the slide. The last 1/2 to1/4 of counter just does not seem to do anything versus a Corolla will get tight on the wheel and evetually catch it. Well I personally have concluded that A FC NEEDS THE DTSS to drift right FOR ME. Both the black NA and yellow turbo has eliminating bushings in and all the events I went to with them were frustrating and inconsistant. Before I came to the conclusion that owner of these cars Paul had to argue with me that it is that spring rate, sway bar, tires etc. etc. Well I drove his 20b FC around the block which should be a handful but it was not, it acted like a stock fc with a bid more under steer and lazyness that is is. I thought my S5 will do nothing at all at D6 but the first run it kick more *** than both the black car and yellow car put together. It easily swings around at off throttle and light braking, ( which a stock FC should, and I could hold it at much more consistant and higher angle. The last bit of counter is not as responsive as a Corolla is but it actuallu did some correcting. I have to say FOR ME drifting FCs with the eliminating bushings is like being blind folded and I wish I knew this before those competitions. Now the S13. S13-14 is just a better drift car pound per pound. It has more angle, less grip so less snappy, and for some reason the stock SR20 will keep the tires spinning almost better than a FC would in the rain. The yellow car dynoed 240 at the wheels and I know a stock SR20 with exhaust and intercooler is not near that may be 210-220 at the wheels? ( correct me if I am wrong.) but it just spins the rear tires on demand. I think S13-14 has more lock than FC and I think the fundamental lay up is just better than FC when it comes to drifting. On grip I think a S13 would kinda suck *** compare to a FC. The only thing I have to complaint about the S13 is the light steering wheel which contribute to lack of feed back on my hands, but may be that can be fixed with more caster and other tunning. Once againg this is my personal opinion and experience but I really felt like the blind fold was taken off of me when I got into the S13. Every turn was on the apex and on the money and that was the first time that car was out and the first time I drifted a S13.

mazdized

P.S. SR20's torque and throttle response help a lot too. Oh I still love FCs and infact I think with more torque and power my S5 would be right there with the S13 I drove, but like I said S13-14 just have that little edge over FC especially when only a limited amount of mods are done.

mazdized

Hummm what coil over DOES NOT do the above?

mazdized

Supplement: My S5 has open diff. and stock front strut mount. The key is to have control over you line and apex just like anyother form of racing. Sure most people like to see phat smoke and mad angle sidewayness but what shows that you are in control is how you adjust your car to achieve the proper line and apex. FDs don't get great angles but that does not mean you can not do the right line. Most people out ther in my opinion have no ideal what a good drift is except for how much smoke and how side ways. Ofsourse there are other trix to add the flavor in drifting to make it more free style. Don't get me wrong having good angle does not hurt but I mean don't you think the Japanese guys know FDs can not get as sideways as a S13-14-15? or may be what matters is the line, apex, consistancy, smoothness, and control. I give the guy who drove the 350z at D1 driver search all my respect. I forgot his name but he said he is from Sweden. The guy is like almost 60 years old and showed up in a bone stock rental 350Z and kicked ***! His line was so consistant run after run and you can measure his angle by which barrier he was by every run and I swear they were like with in 5-10 degrees. His breaking at the second turn was like clock work he locks the right front tire and a puff of smoke comes out at the exact cone every time! Did people go wow amd ahh when he finished a run? not really, was he the most side ways? no. But drift king sure put him in to top 8.

mazdized

For Ted: In case you have not noticed I have been the K2RD FC drift testing bitch, hehehe wish you are still around so I can see you eat a piece of steak that looks like it can be used as a deadly weapon.

Infini IV

I recognized him as one of the best that day as well. His driving was almost as exact as Orido's

RETed

hahaha, Ho Master responds!

I have to pick up all of this stuff as a beginner myself.&nbsp We'll see how the suspension set-up affects the drift performance.&nbsp The FC turbo guy is basically a beginner at all of this stuff, so trying to get good technical feedback from him was hard in the beginning.&nbsp Case in point, the first two laps I went out with him, he kept spinning out all of the place - I had no idea what he was doing wrong.&nbsp I thought it was a suspension problem, as the car was consistently spinning at almost every corner.&nbsp I had to stop looking at the road and watch his feet for an entire lap before I figured out he was over throtting the car.&nbsp The guy is mostly an NA FC driver, so I should've seen that he was trying to drive the FC turbo like an NA - pumping throttle in the turn.&nbsp See recent post on this - but very bad on an FC turbo putting out and estimated 200-220hp to the wheels. Once I told him he needed to control the throttle input very carefully, his drifting got a lot more consistent.&nbsp The car runs Koni reds, so we'll get to mess with the shocks a lot in the next event (next month).&nbsp Oh, I'm not saying adjusting the shocks is the end-all to the FC "problems" with holding a drift line - it's just something we get to adjust instead of pounding the car in frustration.

As for the DTSS thing, you might be onto something.&nbsp I was thinking the same thing at one point, cause the design of the DTSS is exactly what you want to happen during a drift - initial oversteer on drift with controlling toe-in afterwards...

I think it just comes down to the control and skill of the driver.&nbsp Certain drivers want the car to respond one way and others another.&nbsp It's very hard to mess with steering geometry on the FC, but we do have a number of mods that might be able to squeeze out some better steering versus the stock set-up.&nbsp We won't be able to tell until we try it.&nbsp It's not really my idea, and I don't personally think it'll affect the FC that much, but we got nothing to lose at this point.&nbsp It's hard to keep up with those modded SR20's!

With my limited seat time in the KA S13, it felt like the rear had too much stick.&nbsp The driver was holding the e-brake to almost when the car was hitting the apex of the turn; I know trying to do this in an FC would just reward you with a spin!&nbsp It shocked the hell out of me that you could hold the e-brake so long in these cars!

Power and torque does help!&nbsp We had the KA S13 driver jump into the FC turbo just to see how power affects the chassis.&nbsp I was bugging the guy to do this the whole day, cause I know his problem is not technique - it was lack of power.&nbsp Power can get you out of a lot of mistakes sometimes.&nbsp The guy was drooling for power after the test driver - he hated the "snapiness" of the FC chassis though.

As for JagdStealth, you serious about setting up that muscle car for drifting???&nbsp I know people who are trying to do the same thing...



-Ted