Kyrasis6

Engine breaking is also a huge strain on that tiny bearing between the input and out put shafts. I can gaurantee that if you engine brake excessively you will tear this bearing up within 30,000 miles or so.

91verty

I dont mean to join the bandwagon of this thread but what WV says is absolutely true and concise. I am not going to go into teh details of why i would agree, but rather ask everyone here to use the common idea of physics oin this one. Downshifting is not ''horrible'' but you are not doing anything beneficial for your drivetrain either. Your car is decelerating and slowind down yet you are downshifting and forcing the motor to intake air. Thats just one of the many i sould come up with. but it is anones preference. But for the love of god, please do not even consider downshifting to be a good thing for a drivetrain on any vehicle for that matter.

Needa13b

You're right and wrong with that statement.
Yes the manual transmisison is lubricated by the countershaft gears throwing oil around, and the oil sticking to the gears and getting onto the other shaft and so forth.

I think that you are not completely understanding how the transmission engages. If you are in neutral, ALL of the gears are still spinning. It is only when you have your clutch pedal depressed and are not moving in gear that your gears would not be spinning.

Like in my car, I have a bad pilot bearing, so when I start my car, with the clutch pedal depressed, all I hear is smooth rotary power. I let my car warm up a little bit so I put transmission into neutral, and let the clutch pedal out, immediately I hear my pilot bearing moving, but I also know that ALL the gears in my transmission are spinning at this point.

I'm sure you can hear it too if you listen very closely.

Kyrasis6

Yea, all the gears spin all the time, it is the clutch hubs and synchronizers that lock the gear you want to the output shaft and allows it to transfer power.

JoshRX7

iTrader: (5)

WVRx7... I've downshifted/rev matched on every manual transmission equipped car I've ever owned. I understand it's not "necessary", however, at the age of some of these cars around here, the syncros and mesh gears don't quite work how they used to. I know this is the case with my car getting into 2nd gear... 5th scratches now too, but you just really have to let the RPMs fall to get it into gear without scratching. Also, I've found a driver who takes an "active" attitude toward shifting is more prepared to deal with EVERY traffic scenario. You're right 99% of the time, why would you NEED to do this? Is it necessary, no... I don't think anybody is arguing that anymore. Is it fun? Yes. Does it hurt the driveline? Opinions vary on here. Are you still using the brakes coming to a stop? Yes. Using the brakes slowing in traffic? No.

Where I ultimately think rev-matching in daily driving has its place is that other 1% where the normal line is drawn... getting that extra torque on the freeway to make that safe lane change, downshifting to get help with the engine with braking so when you do have to brake very quickly, you're not always relying on the brakes and your reaction time... when you have the engine helping you brake, you should already have a component of negative acceleration, which will help you stop faster.

It has its advantages... you weigh the risk and benefits. I'll keep doing it. : )

Sorry, wasn't trying to argue. Tried to stay objective.

Josh

Bluecoop91

iTrader: (14)

Those that bash engine braking don't know how to do it properly.

If you really are concerned about putting "unnecessary" stress on your engine and drivetrain I suggest you never drive the car so it can last "forever" LOL.

Cars are meant to be driven, and they are designed to be engine braked as well.

peachykeenwight

I'd like to extract some equations to better define why I, and the majority of manual transmission rotary drivers I know, downshift, and why I think some of you need to get over your super mechanical ego and stop making something so insignificant such a big deal.

Revmatching/Downshifting/Double Clutching = Save Gas
Revmatching/Downshifting/Double Clutching != Imminent Component Disaster
RX7 = Gas Hog
Gas = Money
Money = Scarce

Okay, super smart guys, do the math and stop being so ****.

Never once have I heard about a driveline being damaged because of downshifting, unless the driver is simply abusive about it. Plus, it's a lot more comfortable to ride in a manual car (especially a car with lots of power) if the driver knows how to utilize these techniques on the street. I keep my passengers in my mind.

My money, my comfort, my passenger's comfort, and my need for fun come before the minimal chance that something in my driveline is going to be damaged.

If you don't downshift because you either didn't learn that way or you think it's bad, that's fine. I'm not saying you're wrong; I just think it's annoying and uneconomical to be constantly falling to idle and pushing back up to cruising speed when you can stay at a more constant RPM with some simple, and BARELY dangerous, shifting techniques.

So stop spreading your "it kills your driveline" bullshit propaganda... chances are your influence on people who use these techniques is smaller than the danger downshifting poses to your car's integrity.

No offense.

Syonyk

I'd be interested to see stats on accidents vs driving techniques. I know there's no easy way to get these, but I would suspect you'd see some interesting trends.

There is no question that it takes significantly more awareness of the road, the car, and other cars to be able to smoothly drive a stickshift while rev matching, engine braking, etc, than to drive an automatic. This should, theoretically, result in a noticeably lower accident rate for people with stickshifts who drive them well.

-=Russ=-

fcdrifter13

The accident rate of course is higher since the auto came out. Now we got people driving eating, talking on the damn phone and putting on makeup because they have nothing to do with that left hand. But also it has to do with the origin of the driver. In germany I believe that the requirements to drive a car are higher and the penalties for speeding and reckless driving are far more harsh. Speed on the limited section of the Autobahn and it a big no no.

GregW

Awww, dont feel bad. Your absolutely right, no doubt about it.

The fact is nobody gives a ****.

I am personally a neutral-coast-n-shift to first as I stop guy.

But fur some raeson when someone tels me how to do **** "proprely", especially somethnig so trivial I wanna bitch slap thier prim and proper ***.

And for our next discussion. "Wiping" "Front to back or back to front". "The Proper Way, by WVrx7"

adrock3217

Scenario:

In 5th, on a highway. Going 70, speed limit is 65.

Now the speed limit drops to 55. You want to go down to 60, before a cop finds you excessively speeding.

Are you going to hit the brakes, and make the people behind you hit their brakes, thinking something is wrong, and possibly causing an accident..

Or let off the gas, completely closing the throttle plates..and "engine brake"?

Not a LOT of engine braking, but engine braking nonetheless. I sure do it everytime I'm on Rt 70.

Edit: Say you are someone who tailgates.

In the car, if someone slams on their brakes in front of you, slamming the brakes alone will NOT stop the car fast enough to prevent a rear-end. Downshifting(engine braking) AND braking MUST be used in this situation. It is the only way to slow the car enough to prevent an accident.

These are REAL-WORLD incidents, that happen every single day. They are more then 1% of you're driving, as I'm sure you spend more then 1% of you're driving on the highway.

Syonyk

*blinks* No, you're wrong. The total traction available to slow the car is only dependent on the tires. If your brakes don't have enough power to lock all 4 tires on dry pavement, either you have some insane tires (at which point stopping faster than a random car on cheap tires isn't an issue), or you need to fix your brakes. If you need to use engine braking to achieve maximum deceleration, you've got a problem somewhere.

Also, in this particular case, the time needed to downshift would be better spent dancing on the brake pedal.

And, finally, you shouldn't be following close enough that it's a big issue.

-=Russ=-

Black91n/a

I agree that downshifting to slow/stop the car isn't necessary other than a few scenarios like when going down hills to arrest the acceleration but all the doomsday predictions are complete bullshit. Show me some PROOF, or at least some good evidence that this will destroy the engine or transmission. Guess what, you can't. The stress on the input shaft and the bearings and what not will be LESS than when you accelerate at WOT. How fast does the car accelerate in 1st vs how fast it'll slow by engine breaking gives you an idea of the relative stresses involved, and the deceleration stress is far less. No production car would ever be made that wasn't designed to allow people do engine break, that's because people will do it anyways and if the engine or transmission can't handle it then it's a crappy product, will get a bad reputation really fast and no one will buy one. You'll wear your driveline components and engine far faster by doing full throttle acceleration and hard/fast upshifts. Powershifts will kill the tranny faster than anything.

I also saw someone post about not being able to get into 1st below 10mph because of a "lockout". That's not true. There is no "lockout on any gear except maybe reverse. I've engaged first at about 50km/h (1st goes to 60) with no ill effects, the problem he's having is that he's not rev matching. Double clutching is unessesary with modern transmissions unless the syncros are shot.

So far I've seen nothing but peoples oppinions that this is bad, I want to start seeing more than just what you think, back it up with evidence and then maybe you can shut everyone up for good, untill then I'll still drive however I damn well feel like.

Whizbang

so none of you drive in snow do you? i downshift w/ rev matching so i can stop in snow. because brakes make the car slide and letting the engine slow the car down doesnt.

dirtdox

This has all been very amusing!

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

We're done here.

Too much misinformation to even bother with. Thread closed.

Downshifting = normal part of driving. Even (gasp!) automatic transmissions do it.