Cold then luke warm ac, then cold again
08-10-09, 12:07 PM
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Cold then luke warm ac, then cold again
Bought a r134 conversion kit; used about 2-3 cans of refrigerant. Pressure is good in the system.
Strangest thing is it'll be ice cold for a few minutes, then it'll be warmer for about 10 seconds, then cold again. It's so bizzare. Took the car on a 240 mile trip yesterday and it did it the whole way.
I suspect I have too much air vs "freon" in the system - would this be a result of that?
Thanks,
Shawn
Strangest thing is it'll be ice cold for a few minutes, then it'll be warmer for about 10 seconds, then cold again. It's so bizzare. Took the car on a 240 mile trip yesterday and it did it the whole way.
I suspect I have too much air vs "freon" in the system - would this be a result of that?
Thanks,
Shawn
08-10-09, 12:24 PM
#2
MECP Certified Installer
It is possible. Also keep in mind that under load, the ECU kicks the compressor off. So if you where in 5th gear and gave it some gas to crest a hill, then the ECU will shut the compressor off for a moment and it'll kick back on at light load. I think it kicks off at 30% throttle.
08-10-09, 12:35 PM
#3
Assuming you have the factory spec condenser-
There is a 'generally accepted' ratio of R134a to R12 when converting. That ratio is 80-90%. In the FC it will be closer to 80% and in a car with adequate condenser capacity it will be closer to 90%.
With a factory R12 charge of 29oz, that makes the range for the theoretical charge for R134a fall between 23.2oz and 26.1 oz. R134a comes in 12 oz cans, so if you added over the 2 can amount, you are very very likely overcharged.
There is no acceptable amount of air to have in your system. "Air" is considered non-condensable at the temps and pressures in your A/C system. Result of *any* amount of air (especially in a conversion to 134a) is that the problem of the inadequate condenser capacity in the FC is exacerbated.
Bottom line is that you are likely over-pressuring the high-side. and maybe overpressuring the low side cutoff as well. If your car was ever professionally converted, it may include a high pressure limit switch. This could account for the cold/warm temperature cycle. You may also be having problems with the air passing through the TXV and causing temp pressure variations that cause the valve to 'hunt'.
You should fix this or will never be cool and your compressor will eventually destroy itself.
Suggestion action:
Pull a vacuum to a full 29.9"+ level.
Hold it for 30 min to overnight.
Add 2 oz of ester oil.
Charge with 24 oz ONLY of Freeze12.
Problems completely solved.
Good Luck!
With a factory R12 charge of 29oz, that makes the range for the theoretical charge for R134a fall between 23.2oz and 26.1 oz. R134a comes in 12 oz cans, so if you added over the 2 can amount, you are very very likely overcharged.
There is no acceptable amount of air to have in your system. "Air" is considered non-condensable at the temps and pressures in your A/C system. Result of *any* amount of air (especially in a conversion to 134a) is that the problem of the inadequate condenser capacity in the FC is exacerbated.
Bottom line is that you are likely over-pressuring the high-side. and maybe overpressuring the low side cutoff as well. If your car was ever professionally converted, it may include a high pressure limit switch. This could account for the cold/warm temperature cycle. You may also be having problems with the air passing through the TXV and causing temp pressure variations that cause the valve to 'hunt'.
You should fix this or will never be cool and your compressor will eventually destroy itself.
Suggestion action:
Pull a vacuum to a full 29.9"+ level.
Hold it for 30 min to overnight.
Add 2 oz of ester oil.
Charge with 24 oz ONLY of Freeze12.
Problems completely solved.
Good Luck!
08-10-09, 12:41 PM
#4
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There is a 'generally accepted' ratio of R134a to R12 when converting. That ratio is 80-90%. In the FC it will be closer to 80% and in a car with adequate condenser capacity it will be closer to 90%.
With a factory R12 charge of 29oz, that makes the range for the theoretical charge for R134a fall between 23.2oz and 26.1 oz. R134a comes in 12 oz cans, so if you added over the 2 can amount, you are very very likely overcharged.
There is no acceptable amount of air to have in your system. "Air" is considered non-condensable at the temps and pressures in your A/C system. Result of *any* amount of air (especially in a conversion to 134a) is that the problem of the inadequate condenser capacity in the FC is exacerbated.
Bottom line is that you are likely over-pressuring the high-side. and maybe overpressuring the low side cutoff as well. If your car was ever professionally converted, it may include a high pressure limit switch. This could account for the cold/warm temperature cycle. You may also be having problems with the air passing through the TXV and causing temp pressure variations that cause the valve to 'hunt'.
You should fix this or will never be cool and your compressor will eventually destroy itself.
Suggestion action:
Pull a vacuum to a full 29.9"+ level.
Hold it for 30 min to overnight.
Add 2 oz of ester oil.
Charge with 24 oz ONLY of Freeze12.
Problems completely solved.
Good Luck!
With a factory R12 charge of 29oz, that makes the range for the theoretical charge for R134a fall between 23.2oz and 26.1 oz. R134a comes in 12 oz cans, so if you added over the 2 can amount, you are very very likely overcharged.
There is no acceptable amount of air to have in your system. "Air" is considered non-condensable at the temps and pressures in your A/C system. Result of *any* amount of air (especially in a conversion to 134a) is that the problem of the inadequate condenser capacity in the FC is exacerbated.
Bottom line is that you are likely over-pressuring the high-side. and maybe overpressuring the low side cutoff as well. If your car was ever professionally converted, it may include a high pressure limit switch. This could account for the cold/warm temperature cycle. You may also be having problems with the air passing through the TXV and causing temp pressure variations that cause the valve to 'hunt'.
You should fix this or will never be cool and your compressor will eventually destroy itself.
Suggestion action:
Pull a vacuum to a full 29.9"+ level.
Hold it for 30 min to overnight.
Add 2 oz of ester oil.
Charge with 24 oz ONLY of Freeze12.
Problems completely solved.
Good Luck!
I have no idea what the first suggestion means, or where in the world to get Freeze12. I'm no AC guy! Can you explain it to me or send a link as if a child were going to do it? Thanks for you help I certainly don't want to destroy my compressor!
Shawn
08-10-09, 12:53 PM
#6
It is possible. Also keep in mind that under load, the ECU kicks the compressor off. So if you where in 5th gear and gave it some gas to crest a hill, then the ECU will shut the compressor off for a moment and it'll kick back on at light load. I think it kicks off at 30% throttle.
( translates into the upper 30% of the TPS range= possibly matching with JJwalker's number). At this level the ECU called for a 10 second cut-out. After 10 seconds, the clutch was re-energized, the TPS position was revisited and another cut-out could be called for. This makes the operation virtually unnoticeable in normal use.
One detail to add. If you are overcharged and have air, your compressor is working against maybe 100psi more pressue than it was designed to pump against. You will certainly notice the power drain-and this could be putting you into that 70% throttle (30% upper range) causing the cool to cycle.
134a in an FC sux for all different kinds of reasons ...
08-10-09, 12:57 PM
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I ordered the 2 cans of Freeze12 from the website.
So if someone could explain which vacuum to pull, and exactly what "Pull a vacuum to a full 29.9"+ level." means, and where exactly to put the ester oil, I'm sure I could figure this out.
I really don't want to spend any more money on this car if I can figure it out myself!
I'm searching all A/C threads as we speak.
Shawn
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08-10-09, 12:57 PM
#8
The problem with this course of action is that no shop wants to deal with 'alternatives'. They will always press you to charge with 134a, telling you that it will work fine, we do this all the time etc etc. When you have problems, ie it doesn't work fine, then you end up with a professionally done marginal system.
08-10-09, 01:03 PM
#9
Probably, but I'm a do-it-yourself kind of guy with this car.
I ordered the 2 cans of Freeze12 from the website.
So if someone could explain which vacuum to pull, and exactly what "Pull a vacuum to a full 29.9"+ level." means, and where exactly to put the ester oil, I'm sure I could figure this out.
I really don't want to spend any more money on this car if I can figure it out myself!
I'm searching all A/C threads as we speak.
Shawn
I ordered the 2 cans of Freeze12 from the website.
So if someone could explain which vacuum to pull, and exactly what "Pull a vacuum to a full 29.9"+ level." means, and where exactly to put the ester oil, I'm sure I could figure this out.
I really don't want to spend any more money on this car if I can figure it out myself!
I'm searching all A/C threads as we speak.
Shawn
http://www.autoacforum.com/messagevi...&threadid=7931
Evacuate and Charging Procedure.
Attach a/c manifold gauges to the vehicle. Make sure you attach the correct hose to the proper service port. This is very important to prevent personal injury! Attach center (Yellow Hose) to a UL approved a/c vacuum pump. Open both of the dials on you’re a/c manifold gauge set. This will allow the system to be evacuated through both the low and hide side of the system. Turn your approved vacuum pump on starting the evacuation process. 30 minutes usually will be enough time. If vacuum pump has ballast read the owners manual concerning this option.
When system has achieved a state of 29.9 hg’s of vacuum close both dials on the a/c gauge set. You may loose up to 1 hg for every 1000 feet above sea level depending on the capacity and quality of pump. At this point wait 5 to 10 minutes letting the vacuum boil off any moisture trapped in the refrigerant oil. This is also a good time to watch and see if vacuum has returned to a zero state. If so you need to check for leaks in the system. Assuming the system is holding a vacuum after letting the moisture boil off repeat the evacuation procedure again. This process may need to be done a few times before all moisture has been removed and you see no degradation in vacuum after closing both dials for 5 to 10 minutes.
With both dials closed remove the center charging hose attached to the vacuum pump and connect it to either a can tap and refrigerant or 30lbs refrigerant cylinder. Open the valve on either the can tap or 30lbs cylinder allowing refrigerant into the charging hose. With refrigerant in the charging hose slowly crack this hose at the manifold gauge bleeding off any air that may have gotten trapped when moving from the vacuum pump to the refrigerant source. Only the slightest amount of refrigerant should be released in this process so be sure to tighten the charging line quickly!
Open only the low side dial on you’re a/c gauges allowing refrigerant to flow into the system. Again I stress the high side must be closed or you may cause personal injury to yourself or others! Start vehicle and turn on the a/c system with blower on the highest speed. In some cases if the compressor clutch has not engaged you may need to by pass the low pressure cut out/cycling switch. Refrigerant should be charged as a gas but in some cases it may be necessary to charge as a liquid. Be careful not to slug the compressor with liquid refrigerant! Charge system to OEM amounts and pressures if you are using the refrigerant the system was designed for. If vehicle is has been or is being converted start with about 60 percent of the original charging amount. After getting 60 percent of the original charge slowly add an ounce at a time until you reach the best possible vent temperature and pressure readings. If you do not know what your systems operating pressures are you can use the 2.2 x the ambient temperature as a guide. This should only be used as a guide as many systems will need more or less refrigerant to achieve proper cooling.
Having a weak fan clutch or an inoperative electric fan will cause system pressures to be incorrect. So make sure these components are working correctly before charging a system!
In lower ambient climates, doors and or windows of the vehicle maybe required to be open to achieve proper cooling when charging the a/c system.
Attach a/c manifold gauges to the vehicle. Make sure you attach the correct hose to the proper service port. This is very important to prevent personal injury! Attach center (Yellow Hose) to a UL approved a/c vacuum pump. Open both of the dials on you’re a/c manifold gauge set. This will allow the system to be evacuated through both the low and hide side of the system. Turn your approved vacuum pump on starting the evacuation process. 30 minutes usually will be enough time. If vacuum pump has ballast read the owners manual concerning this option.
When system has achieved a state of 29.9 hg’s of vacuum close both dials on the a/c gauge set. You may loose up to 1 hg for every 1000 feet above sea level depending on the capacity and quality of pump. At this point wait 5 to 10 minutes letting the vacuum boil off any moisture trapped in the refrigerant oil. This is also a good time to watch and see if vacuum has returned to a zero state. If so you need to check for leaks in the system. Assuming the system is holding a vacuum after letting the moisture boil off repeat the evacuation procedure again. This process may need to be done a few times before all moisture has been removed and you see no degradation in vacuum after closing both dials for 5 to 10 minutes.
With both dials closed remove the center charging hose attached to the vacuum pump and connect it to either a can tap and refrigerant or 30lbs refrigerant cylinder. Open the valve on either the can tap or 30lbs cylinder allowing refrigerant into the charging hose. With refrigerant in the charging hose slowly crack this hose at the manifold gauge bleeding off any air that may have gotten trapped when moving from the vacuum pump to the refrigerant source. Only the slightest amount of refrigerant should be released in this process so be sure to tighten the charging line quickly!
Open only the low side dial on you’re a/c gauges allowing refrigerant to flow into the system. Again I stress the high side must be closed or you may cause personal injury to yourself or others! Start vehicle and turn on the a/c system with blower on the highest speed. In some cases if the compressor clutch has not engaged you may need to by pass the low pressure cut out/cycling switch. Refrigerant should be charged as a gas but in some cases it may be necessary to charge as a liquid. Be careful not to slug the compressor with liquid refrigerant! Charge system to OEM amounts and pressures if you are using the refrigerant the system was designed for. If vehicle is has been or is being converted start with about 60 percent of the original charging amount. After getting 60 percent of the original charge slowly add an ounce at a time until you reach the best possible vent temperature and pressure readings. If you do not know what your systems operating pressures are you can use the 2.2 x the ambient temperature as a guide. This should only be used as a guide as many systems will need more or less refrigerant to achieve proper cooling.
Having a weak fan clutch or an inoperative electric fan will cause system pressures to be incorrect. So make sure these components are working correctly before charging a system!
In lower ambient climates, doors and or windows of the vehicle maybe required to be open to achieve proper cooling when charging the a/c system.
08-10-09, 01:07 PM
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Buy an oil charge can from the freeze12 people.
http://www.autoacforum.com/messagevi...&threadid=7931
http://www.autoacforum.com/messagevi...&threadid=7931
Evacuate and Charging Procedure.
Attach a/c manifold gauges to the vehicle. Make sure you attach the correct hose to the proper service port. This is very important to prevent personal injury! Attach center (Yellow Hose) to a UL approved a/c vacuum pump. Open both of the dials on you’re a/c manifold gauge set. This will allow the system to be evacuated through both the low and hide side of the system. Turn your approved vacuum pump on starting the evacuation process. 30 minutes usually will be enough time. If vacuum pump has ballast read the owners manual concerning this option.
When system has achieved a state of 29.9 hg’s of vacuum close both dials on the a/c gauge set. You may loose up to 1 hg for every 1000 feet above sea level depending on the capacity and quality of pump. At this point wait 5 to 10 minutes letting the vacuum boil off any moisture trapped in the refrigerant oil. This is also a good time to watch and see if vacuum has returned to a zero state. If so you need to check for leaks in the system. Assuming the system is holding a vacuum after letting the moisture boil off repeat the evacuation procedure again. This process may need to be done a few times before all moisture has been removed and you see no degradation in vacuum after closing both dials for 5 to 10 minutes.
With both dials closed remove the center charging hose attached to the vacuum pump and connect it to either a can tap and refrigerant or 30lbs refrigerant cylinder. Open the valve on either the can tap or 30lbs cylinder allowing refrigerant into the charging hose. With refrigerant in the charging hose slowly crack this hose at the manifold gauge bleeding off any air that may have gotten trapped when moving from the vacuum pump to the refrigerant source. Only the slightest amount of refrigerant should be released in this process so be sure to tighten the charging line quickly!
Open only the low side dial on you’re a/c gauges allowing refrigerant to flow into the system. Again I stress the high side must be closed or you may cause personal injury to yourself or others! Start vehicle and turn on the a/c system with blower on the highest speed. In some cases if the compressor clutch has not engaged you may need to by pass the low pressure cut out/cycling switch. Refrigerant should be charged as a gas but in some cases it may be necessary to charge as a liquid. Be careful not to slug the compressor with liquid refrigerant! Charge system to OEM amounts and pressures if you are using the refrigerant the system was designed for. If vehicle is has been or is being converted start with about 60 percent of the original charging amount. After getting 60 percent of the original charge slowly add an ounce at a time until you reach the best possible vent temperature and pressure readings. If you do not know what your systems operating pressures are you can use the 2.2 x the ambient temperature as a guide. This should only be used as a guide as many systems will need more or less refrigerant to achieve proper cooling.
Having a weak fan clutch or an inoperative electric fan will cause system pressures to be incorrect. So make sure these components are working correctly before charging a system!
In lower ambient climates, doors and or windows of the vehicle maybe required to be open to achieve proper cooling when charging the a/c system.
Attach a/c manifold gauges to the vehicle. Make sure you attach the correct hose to the proper service port. This is very important to prevent personal injury! Attach center (Yellow Hose) to a UL approved a/c vacuum pump. Open both of the dials on you’re a/c manifold gauge set. This will allow the system to be evacuated through both the low and hide side of the system. Turn your approved vacuum pump on starting the evacuation process. 30 minutes usually will be enough time. If vacuum pump has ballast read the owners manual concerning this option.
When system has achieved a state of 29.9 hg’s of vacuum close both dials on the a/c gauge set. You may loose up to 1 hg for every 1000 feet above sea level depending on the capacity and quality of pump. At this point wait 5 to 10 minutes letting the vacuum boil off any moisture trapped in the refrigerant oil. This is also a good time to watch and see if vacuum has returned to a zero state. If so you need to check for leaks in the system. Assuming the system is holding a vacuum after letting the moisture boil off repeat the evacuation procedure again. This process may need to be done a few times before all moisture has been removed and you see no degradation in vacuum after closing both dials for 5 to 10 minutes.
With both dials closed remove the center charging hose attached to the vacuum pump and connect it to either a can tap and refrigerant or 30lbs refrigerant cylinder. Open the valve on either the can tap or 30lbs cylinder allowing refrigerant into the charging hose. With refrigerant in the charging hose slowly crack this hose at the manifold gauge bleeding off any air that may have gotten trapped when moving from the vacuum pump to the refrigerant source. Only the slightest amount of refrigerant should be released in this process so be sure to tighten the charging line quickly!
Open only the low side dial on you’re a/c gauges allowing refrigerant to flow into the system. Again I stress the high side must be closed or you may cause personal injury to yourself or others! Start vehicle and turn on the a/c system with blower on the highest speed. In some cases if the compressor clutch has not engaged you may need to by pass the low pressure cut out/cycling switch. Refrigerant should be charged as a gas but in some cases it may be necessary to charge as a liquid. Be careful not to slug the compressor with liquid refrigerant! Charge system to OEM amounts and pressures if you are using the refrigerant the system was designed for. If vehicle is has been or is being converted start with about 60 percent of the original charging amount. After getting 60 percent of the original charge slowly add an ounce at a time until you reach the best possible vent temperature and pressure readings. If you do not know what your systems operating pressures are you can use the 2.2 x the ambient temperature as a guide. This should only be used as a guide as many systems will need more or less refrigerant to achieve proper cooling.
Having a weak fan clutch or an inoperative electric fan will cause system pressures to be incorrect. So make sure these components are working correctly before charging a system!
In lower ambient climates, doors and or windows of the vehicle maybe required to be open to achieve proper cooling when charging the a/c system.
I may need to take this somewhere it sounds like. Sigh.
08-10-09, 01:17 PM
#11
I have rented many different specialty tools over the years from those guys. Oriellies does basically the same thing.
Or you can buy this pump (just like I use) from harbor freight-http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98076
It's cheap enough to keep, but if you want you can buy it, use it, then Ebay it and get most of your money back.
08-10-09, 01:54 PM
#12
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Rent it! Autozone 'rents' tools like this for free. You leave a rental deposit in the amount of the full price of the vacuum pump. When you return the pump inside 30 days, you get a full refund of the deposit. You can 'rent' a gauge set at the same time.
I have rented many different specialty tools over the years from those guys. Oriellies does basically the same thing.
Or you can buy this pump (just like I use) from harbor freight-http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98076
It's cheap enough to keep, but if you want you can buy it, use it, then Ebay it and get most of your money back.
I have rented many different specialty tools over the years from those guys. Oriellies does basically the same thing.
Or you can buy this pump (just like I use) from harbor freight-http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98076
It's cheap enough to keep, but if you want you can buy it, use it, then Ebay it and get most of your money back.
Well jackhild59, thanks for the advice. I found a local A/C shop and we're going to follow your exact suggestions - should be $60 for the evac/recharge since I'm supplying the freeze12. There may also be an "EPA" fee depending on what he's getting out of my system. I basically called him and read your suggestion back to him, including the 2 oz of oil.
Shawn
Thanks again very much!
Shawn
08-10-09, 02:00 PM
#13
Well jackhild59, thanks for the advice. I found a local A/C shop and we're going to follow your exact suggestions - should be $60 for the evac/recharge since I'm supplying the freeze12. There may also be an "EPA" fee depending on what he's getting out of my system. I basically called him and read your suggestion back to him, including the 2 oz of oil.
Shawn
Thanks again very much!
Shawn
Shawn
Thanks again very much!
Shawn
Good Luck, let us know how it works out.
08-17-09, 09:05 AM
#14
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Excellent. and BTW, that EPA fee is a real overhead. If different refrigerants are mixed in your system he cannot recycle them , he can only recover and store the mixed refrigerant 'crap'. . Eventually when his 'crap' container is full he has to pay money to have the contents destroyed.
Good Luck, let us know how it works out.
Good Luck, let us know how it works out.
08-17-09, 08:15 PM
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Welp, had the full evac today and the recharge with Freeze12. I would say it's just a tad colder than R134a if at all. Seems to cool better in stop 'n' go traffic. At least I don't have to worry about the extra strain on my compressor as much.
Side note - the car idles much smoother now with the A/C on, plus the very intermittent "warming" of the A/C system is gone.
Still, the R134 system(s) in our newer cars is noticeably WAY colder than the Mazda. Could be the cold leather seats, who knows....
Side note - the car idles much smoother now with the A/C on, plus the very intermittent "warming" of the A/C system is gone.
Still, the R134 system(s) in our newer cars is noticeably WAY colder than the Mazda. Could be the cold leather seats, who knows....
08-18-09, 02:30 PM
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don't know IF or how much truth there is to this notion, but...
i have been told that IF turning on the ac and/or applying the brakes affects the idle much, that THAT is a early sign of lower compression.
is this true?
how much idle variation with ac or brakes is normal?
this is an increased vacuum load right?
henry
i have been told that IF turning on the ac and/or applying the brakes affects the idle much, that THAT is a early sign of lower compression.
is this true?
how much idle variation with ac or brakes is normal?
this is an increased vacuum load right?
henry
08-18-09, 03:03 PM
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don't know IF or how much truth there is to this notion, but...
i have been told that IF turning on the ac and/or applying the brakes affects the idle much, that THAT is a early sign of lower compression.
is this true?
how much idle variation with ac or brakes is normal?
this is an increased vacuum load right?
henry
i have been told that IF turning on the ac and/or applying the brakes affects the idle much, that THAT is a early sign of lower compression.
is this true?
how much idle variation with ac or brakes is normal?
this is an increased vacuum load right?
henry
08-27-09, 10:09 PM
#18
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Update on the A/C. All went as planned. I bought a little vent thermometer to compare the temperatures between the LS430 and the Rx-7.
In 92 degree weather, the A/C temperature from the vent on the LS430 is dead pegged at 40 degrees. The RX-7 I haven't tested yet during a hot day, but no way does that car feel as cold in the cabin as the LS. I'm thinking it's due to a number of variables; the LS has tinted windows and a much better "sealed" cabin (that car is dead quiet on the road). Anyone else have any ideas?
Tonight, now that the temp has dropped and the sun has gone down, the RX-7's A/C temp at the vents is dead on 40 degrees too.
I'm sure the RX runs a tad hotter than the V8, and when the engine is being pushed when it's hot with the AC on, it just doesn't get as cold.
But all is well, and thumbs-up to Freeze 12!
In 92 degree weather, the A/C temperature from the vent on the LS430 is dead pegged at 40 degrees. The RX-7 I haven't tested yet during a hot day, but no way does that car feel as cold in the cabin as the LS. I'm thinking it's due to a number of variables; the LS has tinted windows and a much better "sealed" cabin (that car is dead quiet on the road). Anyone else have any ideas?
Tonight, now that the temp has dropped and the sun has gone down, the RX-7's A/C temp at the vents is dead on 40 degrees too.
I'm sure the RX runs a tad hotter than the V8, and when the engine is being pushed when it's hot with the AC on, it just doesn't get as cold.
But all is well, and thumbs-up to Freeze 12!
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