Clutch went out, cannot get into gear.
11-05-11, 03:35 PM
#1
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Clutch went out, cannot get into gear.
So, I just got a ride home after this whole ordeal. I was driving around today and was taking off from a stoplight up to about 7000rpm and when I went to shift my clutch would not release and I had to actually pull it out of 1st and coast into a nearby parking lot, thank god for momentum.
Now when I go to take off it will not get into gear while the car is running. I can get it into gear with it off but when I go to start she bucks, even with the clutch down, and afterwards the pedal likes to stay down for a bit before coming back up. When this started before I tried moving again I got out and checked that the hydraulics were moving and that my pedal had not came unhooked from the rod, both were fine. I'm thinking either a throwout bearing or pressure plate issue, am I correct in guessing those right now without being able to take it apart? I'll hopefully learn more Tuesday if I can get it into my automotive class at my college and tear into it.
Now when I go to take off it will not get into gear while the car is running. I can get it into gear with it off but when I go to start she bucks, even with the clutch down, and afterwards the pedal likes to stay down for a bit before coming back up. When this started before I tried moving again I got out and checked that the hydraulics were moving and that my pedal had not came unhooked from the rod, both were fine. I'm thinking either a throwout bearing or pressure plate issue, am I correct in guessing those right now without being able to take it apart? I'll hopefully learn more Tuesday if I can get it into my automotive class at my college and tear into it.
11-05-11, 05:27 PM
#2
Clutch master cylinder is leaking internally, you should replace both anyway(slave and master). I got away with just replacing the master cylinder. You can get it to work if you pump the clutch. When sitting at a stop, leave it in neutral until you are ready to take off, pumping the clutch a few times until you are ready to shift...then shift and go.
I drove my car like that for a month untill I could fix it.
I drove my car like that for a month untill I could fix it.
11-05-11, 05:46 PM
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I agree with him. This happened to me as well. But as I was waiting i had to refill my master every couple hours bc it would just leak out with every push of the pedal. Just order from rock auto and see if that fixes it. If not, at least you have two less parts to worry about going wrong.
11-05-11, 06:15 PM
#5
If the hydraulics are good then it's one of these: Pilot Bearing, Throwout Bearing, or Pressure Plate.
I had something similar happen to me a week ago.. Wound up being the throwout bearing [and the pilot bearing seal bouncing around the pressure plate]
Get ready for lots of work in any case... And remember to take off the slave cyl. first thing ^_^'.. [If you separate the trans and engine a bit with the slave still on, it's a pain to remove it..]
I had something similar happen to me a week ago.. Wound up being the throwout bearing [and the pilot bearing seal bouncing around the pressure plate]
Get ready for lots of work in any case... And remember to take off the slave cyl. first thing ^_^'.. [If you separate the trans and engine a bit with the slave still on, it's a pain to remove it..]
11-05-11, 07:23 PM
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Well, the master and slave were replaced in '01 but that was also only less than 1000 miles ago. I don't think it would develop a leak internally just sitting, and wouldn't it be gradually noticeable in the ~600 or so miles that I have driving since I have owned the car and not just give in between taking off from a stop and attempting to shift to 2nd about 400 yards away?
Edit: Like I said, I can see the slave push on the fork part outside the trans so I really don't think it would be hydraulics.
Edit: Like I said, I can see the slave push on the fork part outside the trans so I really don't think it would be hydraulics.
11-05-11, 08:24 PM
#7
yes, because parts have an infinite shelf life...
in fact parts fail MORE regularly once put into service and then NOT used than if never installed.
look at the fluid, is it nonexistent or look like mud now that it's collected a ton of water from sitting?
does the pedal have a decent amount of free play before you feel it start to give resistance?
if you pump the pedal does it give you a more firm positive feel?
the slave will still travel some with air in the system, don't be fooled that it is still moving somewhat as that is a **** poor test. the fact that the pedal is sticking to the floor is a good indicator that there is a decent amount of air in the system OR the master cylinder is bypassing fluid internally.
if you feel like not answering those questions, feel free to yank out the transmission and figure out if the pilot bearing siezed up or not.
in fact parts fail MORE regularly once put into service and then NOT used than if never installed.
look at the fluid, is it nonexistent or look like mud now that it's collected a ton of water from sitting?
does the pedal have a decent amount of free play before you feel it start to give resistance?
if you pump the pedal does it give you a more firm positive feel?
the slave will still travel some with air in the system, don't be fooled that it is still moving somewhat as that is a **** poor test. the fact that the pedal is sticking to the floor is a good indicator that there is a decent amount of air in the system OR the master cylinder is bypassing fluid internally.
if you feel like not answering those questions, feel free to yank out the transmission and figure out if the pilot bearing siezed up or not.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-05-11 at 08:30 PM.
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11-05-11, 08:45 PM
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Okay, so if the master has an internal leak how is it that the slave still moves, wouldn't an internal leak just bleed off the pressure and not apply it to the slave and fork or even leak back into the car? At least that's what all my schooling has taught me, but my books have been wrong before. It even mentions rotarys, which I thought was interesting.
11-05-11, 09:45 PM
#9
If it shifts after pumping th clutch...it's probably the master. Mine didn't leak either, I never had to add fluid. But if I sat at a traffic light with my foot on the clutch the car would creep and when I took my foot off the clutch it would still be on the floor and the car would be moving and very hard to shift or the would not disengage otherwise.
Also seals, gaskets deteriorate without being used so don't count on that less than 600 miles stuff.
Plus I have actually had to do it on both of my cars, both right after I aquired them, both had been sitting for a time and both are very well maintained.
Also seals, gaskets deteriorate without being used so don't count on that less than 600 miles stuff.
Plus I have actually had to do it on both of my cars, both right after I aquired them, both had been sitting for a time and both are very well maintained.
11-05-11, 09:59 PM
#10
still haven't answered a single question. keep consulting your books.
as mentioned, if the pedal is sticking to the floor you obviously are lacking some hydraulic pressure considering the things you listed. usually it is intermittent bypassing in these masters, not an all out failure. if the master has no fluid in the reservoir it will pick up air and have a mushy pedal similar to this, but still move the slave arm, likely not enough to disengage the clutch fully though.
if it was me i would double check the fluid level and pump the **** out of the pedal to see if it corrects the issue to at least verify if it is hydraulic related. if the pedal feels the way it used to yet you aren't getting the clutch to let go then you probably have a seized pilot bearing and the transmission needs to come out.
as mentioned, if the pedal is sticking to the floor you obviously are lacking some hydraulic pressure considering the things you listed. usually it is intermittent bypassing in these masters, not an all out failure. if the master has no fluid in the reservoir it will pick up air and have a mushy pedal similar to this, but still move the slave arm, likely not enough to disengage the clutch fully though.
if it was me i would double check the fluid level and pump the **** out of the pedal to see if it corrects the issue to at least verify if it is hydraulic related. if the pedal feels the way it used to yet you aren't getting the clutch to let go then you probably have a seized pilot bearing and the transmission needs to come out.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-05-11 at 10:06 PM.
11-05-11, 10:12 PM
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Sorry I don't think I had the page refreshed when I posted so your questions weren't up.
There is fluid, it's an amber/golden brown color, up slightly above the max line. Pedal feel hasn't really changed much, but I guess it is slightly softer, but pumping does not change the feel at all. I did bleed the line when I was bringing the car back into service and am quite certain that there is very little air, if any, in the line. The pedal only stuck to the floor for a couple seconds when I tried cranking while I was in gear in an attempt to get the car moving again, but it did bring itself back up after a couple second.
How intermittent would the bypassing be? I tried a few times when it started, gave it about 15 minutes and tried again, then tried again about an hour and a half later.
There is fluid, it's an amber/golden brown color, up slightly above the max line. Pedal feel hasn't really changed much, but I guess it is slightly softer, but pumping does not change the feel at all. I did bleed the line when I was bringing the car back into service and am quite certain that there is very little air, if any, in the line. The pedal only stuck to the floor for a couple seconds when I tried cranking while I was in gear in an attempt to get the car moving again, but it did bring itself back up after a couple second.
How intermittent would the bypassing be? I tried a few times when it started, gave it about 15 minutes and tried again, then tried again about an hour and a half later.
11-05-11, 11:30 PM
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Thanks Karack for confirming my suspicions. I won't be able to fully find out until Tuesday at the earliest. Good thing our school only charges for parts because I have a feeling this may be a lot of labor.
11-06-11, 10:49 AM
#14
I had a similar problem, in my case it was the pilot bearing that destroyed itself and locked the transmission input shaft to the eccentric shaft, so that even if you disengaged the clutch, the whole mechanism was still locked together. If your pedal is not coming up, or coming up very slowly, then I'd lean towards a hydraulic problem or a problem with the clutch fork pivot thats effectively causing the same thing, and just not moving the clutch enough.
If this is the case, you can check the overall hydraulic system by having a friend push & hold down the clutch while the engine is not running, with you under the hood to see if the slave cylinder pushes the clutch fork and then slowly returns to its starting position while your friend still has the clutch pushed. If this happens, you just got lucky, and probably just need to replace the clutch master & slave (do them both & flush the line between, just to make sure any debris is cleared out).
If the slave pushes the fork & stays there as long as the clutch is pushed, then it looks like you're dropping the transmission to inspect the fork, its pivot etc. Replace the pilot bearing at the same time, and you may want to do the transmission input shaft seal & the clutch itself, if you don't know how much life it has left.
If this is the case, you can check the overall hydraulic system by having a friend push & hold down the clutch while the engine is not running, with you under the hood to see if the slave cylinder pushes the clutch fork and then slowly returns to its starting position while your friend still has the clutch pushed. If this happens, you just got lucky, and probably just need to replace the clutch master & slave (do them both & flush the line between, just to make sure any debris is cleared out).
If the slave pushes the fork & stays there as long as the clutch is pushed, then it looks like you're dropping the transmission to inspect the fork, its pivot etc. Replace the pilot bearing at the same time, and you may want to do the transmission input shaft seal & the clutch itself, if you don't know how much life it has left.
11-16-11, 08:49 AM
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Well, I'm here to admit that none of my educated guesses where right. I missed the most basic of things that it could have been.
Drum roll please?
My disc shattered haha, I feel so stupid for not thinking of that. Off to buy a new kit.
On a better note, hydraulics, fork, pilot, and throwout are fine. Even tho I know pilot and throwout come in most new kits.
On a worse note, does anybody know what the big electrical plug-type thing screwed into the upper drivers side of the tail of the trans is? Two of the wires were just twisted together and electrical taped over into the wires running up to the engine bay.
Drum roll please?
My disc shattered haha, I feel so stupid for not thinking of that. Off to buy a new kit.
On a better note, hydraulics, fork, pilot, and throwout are fine. Even tho I know pilot and throwout come in most new kits.
On a worse note, does anybody know what the big electrical plug-type thing screwed into the upper drivers side of the tail of the trans is? Two of the wires were just twisted together and electrical taped over into the wires running up to the engine bay.
11-16-11, 08:56 AM
#16
Well, I'm here to admit that none of my educated guesses where right. I missed the most basic of things that it could have been.
Drum roll please?
My disc shattered haha, I feel so stupid for not thinking of that. Off to buy a new kit.
On a better note, hydraulics, fork, pilot, and throwout are fine. Even tho I know pilot and throwout come in most new kits.
On a worse note, does anybody know what the big electrical plug-type thing screwed into the upper drivers side of the tail of the trans is? Two of the wires were just twisted together and electrical taped over into the wires running up to the engine bay.
Drum roll please?
My disc shattered haha, I feel so stupid for not thinking of that. Off to buy a new kit.
On a better note, hydraulics, fork, pilot, and throwout are fine. Even tho I know pilot and throwout come in most new kits.
On a worse note, does anybody know what the big electrical plug-type thing screwed into the upper drivers side of the tail of the trans is? Two of the wires were just twisted together and electrical taped over into the wires running up to the engine bay.
11-16-11, 10:02 AM
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I do plan on crimping and soldering a couple pairs of male and female insulated spade connectors onto the wires. I'm going to dive into the FSM and try to figure out exactly which wires they are. Would polarity matter on them?
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