Ryde _Or_Die

Its mainly the hotside from what I've been told. My hybird even has a machined turbine housing and a bigger tubien wheel and couldn't hold boost to redline. I did have the stock catback and not the best compression though. So now I'll see what it can do with a fresh build and a big streetport in the next couple weeks.

Gene

iTrader: (1)

First, read this:

http://www.turbocalculator.com/how-to-read.html

The key to interpreting a compressor map is to know how much air the engine needs. This is where my calculations break down, because I'm not sure if my air inhalation numbers are correct.

BDC

Calculate roughly 11lbs/min of airflow at 7000rpm per 100bhp in a 4-port 13BT.

I vote for the 60-1 with a P-Trim 0.81 A/R or 0.96 A/R turbine housing.

B

Barwick

Get the compressor map for it. It's going to look like the turbo is too big to you by the math, but everyone on here will tell you it's WAY TOO SMALL MAN!!! Whatever... size the turbo for what you want to do with it, if you want a road race car, but a big huge turbo on it, otherwise just size it up by the compressor map. Check out www.turbocalculator.com it helps with the math a bit, or just get a graphing program to see how many lbs/min (the way most compressor maps are listed) the engine flows, and look at what RPM/boost level it flows x amount (minimum boost) and what level it flows x amount (maximum boost)

Barwick

Ok, go to www.mathgv.com and download their graphing software, and put this function onto a graph (you'll have to size the axes properly so you can see the whole thing, 8000ish (with tick marks every 1000) on the X axis, and 70 (with tick marks every 5) on the Y axis.

(((14.7+10)*((160*x)/3456)*29)/(10.73*520))*.85
That's for 10 lbs on a 13bt @ 85% VE

Here's the breakdown:

(((14.7+B)*((160*x)/3456)*29)/(10.73*520))*.85

Where B is boost.
14.7 is one atmosphere (you're "always" (kinda) getting at least 14.7 lbs of pressure at sea level.

160 is the cubic inches of displacement for every two rotations of the e-shaft (the rotary acts like a two-stroke for purposes of determing displacement, for every two rotations it displaces 2.6L of air, whereas a 1.3L piston engine displaces 1.3L every two rotations (intake/compression, combustion/exhaust)

.85 is a guess at the volumetric efficiency.

All the other crap is a multiplier to get the right answer, I forget what it's there for... some of it is to convert into lbs/min instead of CFM.

igottafc

iTrader: (6)

for the guys running T04 setups, when do you usually see full boost? im thinking of upgrading my turbo but response is more important to me than power (quick spooling). Is the to4 more drag turbo than a tight circuit turbo?

eViLRotor

iTrader: (2)

The T04 can be used for both track and dragstrip. Depends on what size turbine housing you want to use. I'm sure a .84 would make a great track turbo...

...my friend got a .96 for the track. We will see how well he spools

Donn Hecht

What I believe he's asking guys is "Can he make 400 RWHP with a Turbo Upgrade using the stock turbo with a upgraded wheel" ? I remember I spoke to you MazdaRX7Racer4Life in regards to the turbo upgrade you were looking to do for your Turbo II. Im assuming you spoke to Charles or Mike at MIC Turbo in Hialeah ?
Well just to let you know I remember my conversation quite well with Charles in regards to the Turbo upgrade for the Turbo II, and from what he told me is that "YES" you can make 400 RWHP using the Turbo Upgrade that they offer for the Turbo II. They upgrade your stock turbo to a TO4E specs. But I remembered I asked "BDC", and other people that know Turbo maps, and that have general knowledge when it comes to Turbos, and BDC told me theres no way in hell that the Turbo Upgrade can give you 400 RWHP. "Its simply not enough air flow". You should get like 250 RWHP maybe a little bit more but not much. That would mean that the car has to be making around 400/440 FWHP to make 400 RWHP. Just to let you know I had a friend with a Turbo II running a Holley 650 Double Pumper Carb with a blow through box, running a 60-1 with a FMIC, and all the trimmings, and he made 370-375 RWHP @ 14 PSI to the wheels on the Dyno which results in high 11" second 1/4 miles at the track. Let me tell you that 370 RWHP on a street car is no joke ! We would line up Supercharged Stangs, Corvettes, Camaros, just about what ever, and smoke the **** out of them all with his Turbo II. You should have seen the look on there faces its "Priceless". Besides you dont really want to make more than 400RWHP on a Turbo II, due to reliability reasons, because then you start to break Axles, Trannys, Differentials, and in worse cases like my friend with his 370 RWHP monster you start breaking rear plates due to the severe twisting of the motor. I think if you want to get a little bit more power than stock turbo provides then the upgrade is ok, but if you want to make serious power than the go ala "60-1", but then again thats more money cause you need a 60-1 Turbo,E.Manifold,wastegate,downpipe,Bigger pump,F.Regulator,F.Rail, stainless steel fuel lines with AN Fittings, and this is just the begining of the money pit. Enjoy welcome to Mazda

BDoty311

My T04s 60-1 , .84 hotside, .70 coldside, is damn well spooled by 4k. Very responsive and minimal lag.

Gene

iTrader: (1)

Barwick, thanks for the formula. I plugged it into excel, and came up with results sort of similar, but not super close, to my results with the calculator at www.smokemup.com (you have to register, but it's very useful, and registration is free) This may be a result of the calculator having more input paramaters (temperature, intercooler efficiency and some others) or a bug in the math somewhere. Your forumla gave me this at 10PSI:

rpm lb/min
1000 5.051926927
2000 10.10385385
3000 15.15578078
4000 20.20770771
5000 25.25963463
6000 30.31156156
7000 35.36348849
8000 40.41541542
9000 45.46734234

Looking at a 60-1 compressor map:

http://www.turbocalculator.com/map-t...t%20T04%2060-1

It seems that the 60-1 is improperly sized... you don't hit the full efficiency island of the compressor until you're at redline. As I understand it, you're supposed to size things so that the max efficiency is right in the middle of your powerband, that way you spend as much time close to it as possible.

If you use the same numbers on a T04E 50 trim,

http://www.turbocalculator.com/map-t...4E%2050%20Trim

Your powerband should start at 3000 and go all the way to redline, with max efficiency between 4000 and 6000.

Barwick

Sorry, the one I had was a T04E 60 Trim, map as shown here:

http://www.turbocalculator.com/compr...ps/t04e-60.jpg

Gene

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, the 60 trim would work well too. It's mainly the 60-1 that seems wrong to me... but I know people who have used them successfully. They don't get full boost till 4000 RPM though.

sunshineacid

book markin this one...

RETed

This is going to turn out to be a Turbo 101 dissertation...

For simplicity, I'll just describe what I look for in a turbo.

For equivalency sake, the 13B can push enough airflow to mimic a 2.5 to 3.0 liter 6-cylinder.  This equates turbo sizing to what a Toyota Supra turbo 7MGTE or 2JZGTE (or 1JZGTE for those who know what this is), and turbo sizing is comparable.

The dynamics of the 13B is pretty hard to give a short discussion on why it equates to a 3.0 liter 6-cylinder, but in our experience, it just does. You just have to trust me on that...

If you run that numbers now, the 60-1 should pop up as adequately matched for the engine.

Remember compressor size dictates potential max power.
Turbine design (i.e. A/R) dictates power band.

Please don't equate compressor size into power band.


-Ted

Gene

iTrader: (1)

Hmm yeah using your numbers the 60-1 looks more reasonable. Even with those numbers you still never get to max efficiency until you get near redline though, I thought you wanted the max efficiency point near the center of the powerband.

What turbo would you recommend to get about 320-330 RWHP and good response?

import_rican

great thread!!!! Keep the info coming!!!

RETed

Any time of porting will increase efficiency, and most big turbo 13B's are ported, and this bumps up efficiency a bit.  It's very hard to graph the engine running "through" the compressor efficiency map, and most times you look for the peak power point - i.e. at redline.  If you know where this point is, you can kind of guess where the turbo will run through on the graph.

If this point is close to the left by the surge line, this might not be a good turbo size for you.  If it's way out on the right, again, the size might not be good.  If the point is kitty-corner from the bottom left corner, this is a good place to be.

Keep in mind that as a rule-of-thumb, any compressor efficiency over 70% is considered adequate for most turbo experts.  Look at the efficiency plateaus printed on the compressor map - there is NO standard for this, and many have differing efficiency plateaus.  If your point is on a 70%+ efficiency plateau, it's still good.


You're not asking for much.
A Garrett T04B V-trim will give you best response with enough airflow for your needs.
If you want a little headroom for possibly more power in the near future, the Garrett T04B H-trim will fit the bill.
The next turbo "up" will be the 60-1, T04E "60", and the TS04.
You can also check out the Garrett T04E "57" the T04B V-trim or H-trim are not easily available.


-Ted

Gene

iTrader: (1)

Exactly. I'm looking to build a pretty reliable and fun to drive setup for doing track events, not a all-out drag monster. My engine does have a mild street port...

Thanks for the advice.

MazdaRx7Racer4Life

Since you seem to be the one recommending, what d you recommend for a 375-400rwhp on a large streetport with the basic bolt on mods. Forget the fuel and intercooler support, what do I need on turbo basis?

RETed

Cheap would be Garrett T04B H-trim, 60-1, or T04E "60".
You can go with a TS04, if you want to shoot for higher boost.
The T04B H-trim might not hit 400, but it should get close.
The 60-1 and T04E "60" has been proven to hit 400 on pump gas slightly under 20psi.
The TS04 is not as efficient at lower boost as the others, but it does handle more boost more efficiently.

If you got bucks, a Garrett GT3540 is a super nice unit.  I'm tuning one now, and it makes strong power down low.
This is about the "best" turbo for power across the RPM range.
The ball bearing center makes for ultra-quick spool, and the latest wheel designs make it the best.

Alternate turbos are the Mitsubishi TD06 or A'PEXi IHI RX-6.  These turbos are not usually cheap.
Both turbos are available in kit form, but they are not cheap.
The IHI RX-6 is ball-bearing center also.


-Ted

NOS FC3S

iTrader: (1)

I put down over 300 with nothing but Nitrous.

N/A all the way baby :d

RETed

loser


-Ted

Infini IV

Using pump gas, I'd still choose the 60-1 over the T04E 60 as it looks like the T04E would require slightly higher boost to achieve 400rwhp.

Ryde _Or_Die

Any thoughts on this turbo?

http://store.yahoo.com/cheapturbo/t4b.html

I was looking at his one as well. I'm greedy and want the best of every world. Fast spool, boost till redline, 425-450+RWHP, etc.

http://store.yahoo.com/cheapturbo/garrettto4r.html

Maxthe7man

I was at those numbers at 14 psi on a stock port motor with a t04e "60"...I also ran a very large turbine a/r, most people are worried over spool and what not, I ran the 1.15 a/r p-trim, which with more elaborate motor porting eventually spooled faster than stock...The t04e is a very good street turbo, when coupled with a good intercooler, I know I was starting to stretch the turbo into its limits as I went with larger and larger ports, with a partial bridge it was still very strong, but the charge temps started to climb as the compressor got pushed off the map with larger amounts of flow...
If I wasn't so power hungry , I would stay with a large sp, and a t04e, divided manifold, at least a 1.0 divided manifold preferably the 1.15. , the car was pretty much untouchable on the street..Max