A/C Charging with Easy Cheap Safe Alternative Refrigerant
09-01-14, 10:19 PM
#276
i randomly came across this thread.
i used air duster (diflouroethane R152A) to charge my custom AC system in my FD. it's been working perfectly for about 2 months now.
in 90*F weather the air vent temp is around 50*F, and cruising at 40mph+ the vent temp gets down to slightly under 40*F.
this is also with my R12 type expansion valve. if you can get a R134A type expansion valve (i'm not sure how easy this is to do with an FC) it will function even better, as the R152A is much more similar to R134A than R12.
i used air duster (diflouroethane R152A) to charge my custom AC system in my FD. it's been working perfectly for about 2 months now.
in 90*F weather the air vent temp is around 50*F, and cruising at 40mph+ the vent temp gets down to slightly under 40*F.
this is also with my R12 type expansion valve. if you can get a R134A type expansion valve (i'm not sure how easy this is to do with an FC) it will function even better, as the R152A is much more similar to R134A than R12.
11-18-14, 11:59 AM
#277
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Subscribed! Thank you jackhild59 for the detailed how-to. I've never attempted ac work before, but this thread has given me the knowledge to try and fix the ac system in my sons RX7. I purchased the adapter, manifold set and side tap on Ebay and my total investment so far is under $47. Still need to purchase a new drier/receiver and ester oil.
11-19-14, 11:38 PM
#282
Introducing the inventor and promoter of Es-12 and all other propane Fuel based 'refrigerants', Dr. Ian MacLaine Cross. The Man who literally wrote the book, did the research and gave birth to the industry.
http://www.ufua.asn.au/nz_death_and_...aine_cross.pdf
7 April 2005
Car explosion leads to prosecution against leading
hydrocarbon promoter
The academic whose research work has been pivotal in the push for the use of
hydrocarbon (flammable) refrigerants in vehicle air conditioning systems in Australia, Dr
Ian MacLaine Cross, has been convicted in the Chief Industrial Magistrate’s Court in
Sydney as a result of a hydrocarbon demonstration that went wrong, injuring MacLaine
Cross and several other observers from the hydrocarbon industry.
Workcover NSW had prosecuted Ian MacLaine Cross, of the University of New South
Wales, on two breaches of the Dangerous Goods Act.
MacLaine Cross was charged that on 12 July 2001, in a University of New South Wales
carpark at Kensington, he negligently and carelessly used a hydrocarbon gas, in such a
manner and circumstance as to cause or to be likely to cause injury to himself.
On the second count, MacLaine Cross was charged with failing to take reasonable care
for the health and safety of persons who were affected by his acts and omissions of work,
in particular John Reynolds, Paul McGregor and Michael Belsted, who were all injured in
the explosion which resulted from MacLaine Cross’ demonstration.
MacLaine Cross pleaded guilty to both charges. On the first, Chief Magistrate Miller
convicted MacLaine Cross and imposed a penalty whereby he entered into a bond to be
of good behaviour for twelve months.
On the second charge, Chief Magistrate Miller exercised his discretion and did not record
a conviction, on the defendant entering into a bond to be of good behaviour for twelve
months.
He also allowed costs totalling $5,720 against the defendant.
The court was told that, in his role as senior lecturer at the University School of
Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering, MacLaine Cross conducted an experiment
involving the ignition, within a closed motor vehicle, of a hydrocarbon gas which was a
mixture of propane, isobutane and air. The experiment was requested by Dr Michael
Belsted, the managing director of a company described as Minus-Forty Pty Limited and
was also part of the defendant’s academic research activities with the University.
Workcover told the court that there were approximately 14 people associated with the
relevant private sector industry who attended the demonstration as observers, at the
invitation of the defendant and included among them were the injured persons.While he was in the drivers seat of his own vehicle, with all doors and windows shut,
MacLaine Cross discharged into the air two aerosol containers containing approximately
343 grams of the gas. The gas is an asphyxiant in a highly flammable gaseous substance
and is classified as dangerous under the Dangerous goods Act.
MacLaine Cross then lit a match that ignited the gas and caused a burst of flame. The
tops of the four passenger doors were bent outwards, part of the interior lining of the roof
and doors were melted or softened and the passenger side front window fractured into
hundreds of thousands of shards.
Maclaine Cross suffered first degree burns to his face and ears and second degree burns
to the back of his hands. Belsted suffered first degree burns to his face, McGregor first
degree burns to his face, cuts from the shards of glass and a graze to the cornea of one
eye and Reynolds suffered first degree burns to his face and neck.
Another observer, Dieter Helf suffered a cut forehead and hand.
The court was told that Dr Michael Belsted, representing a company of professional
refrigeration and air conditioning engineers, was preparing a presentation on refrigerants
for his client’s Chinese manufacturers and Greenpeace International. His clients were
seeking information on a concentration of hydrocarbon refrigerant in the passenger cabin
of a motor vehicle, which, if ignited, would cause no significant bodily injury or property
damage.
Since 1994, MacLaine Cross has specialised in the area of the safe use of hydrocarbon
refrigerants in cars.
He had conducted two similar experiments prior to 2001 and neither resulted in any
personal injury or property damage.
The court was told that since the experiment in 2001, MacLaine Cross had not conducted
any similar experiments and did not intend to do so in the future. He was planning to
retire from the university and workforce in February 2005.
In his written judgement, Chief Industrial Magistrate G Miller said “There is the need for
a general deterrence and to meet the community’s concern at workplace incidents. This,
in many respects, was described as probably a stupid incident when looking at the
particular circumstances and hindsight, no doubt the defendant thought otherwise prior to
the incident.
FOOTNOTE
The use of hydrocarbon refrigerant in vehicle air conditioning systems which are
designed for the only OEM approved refrigerant R134a, is banned in several Australian
states. Queensland had issued a Safety Alert on the use of hydrocarbons in this manner
and sought a recall of vehicles which had been charged with hydrocarbon refrigerant.
http://www.ufua.asn.au/nz_death_and_...aine_cross.pdf
7 April 2005
Car explosion leads to prosecution against leading
hydrocarbon promoter
The academic whose research work has been pivotal in the push for the use of
hydrocarbon (flammable) refrigerants in vehicle air conditioning systems in Australia, Dr
Ian MacLaine Cross, has been convicted in the Chief Industrial Magistrate’s Court in
Sydney as a result of a hydrocarbon demonstration that went wrong, injuring MacLaine
Cross and several other observers from the hydrocarbon industry.
Workcover NSW had prosecuted Ian MacLaine Cross, of the University of New South
Wales, on two breaches of the Dangerous Goods Act.
MacLaine Cross was charged that on 12 July 2001, in a University of New South Wales
carpark at Kensington, he negligently and carelessly used a hydrocarbon gas, in such a
manner and circumstance as to cause or to be likely to cause injury to himself.
On the second count, MacLaine Cross was charged with failing to take reasonable care
for the health and safety of persons who were affected by his acts and omissions of work,
in particular John Reynolds, Paul McGregor and Michael Belsted, who were all injured in
the explosion which resulted from MacLaine Cross’ demonstration.
MacLaine Cross pleaded guilty to both charges. On the first, Chief Magistrate Miller
convicted MacLaine Cross and imposed a penalty whereby he entered into a bond to be
of good behaviour for twelve months.
On the second charge, Chief Magistrate Miller exercised his discretion and did not record
a conviction, on the defendant entering into a bond to be of good behaviour for twelve
months.
He also allowed costs totalling $5,720 against the defendant.
The court was told that, in his role as senior lecturer at the University School of
Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering, MacLaine Cross conducted an experiment
involving the ignition, within a closed motor vehicle, of a hydrocarbon gas which was a
mixture of propane, isobutane and air. The experiment was requested by Dr Michael
Belsted, the managing director of a company described as Minus-Forty Pty Limited and
was also part of the defendant’s academic research activities with the University.
Workcover told the court that there were approximately 14 people associated with the
relevant private sector industry who attended the demonstration as observers, at the
invitation of the defendant and included among them were the injured persons.While he was in the drivers seat of his own vehicle, with all doors and windows shut,
MacLaine Cross discharged into the air two aerosol containers containing approximately
343 grams of the gas. The gas is an asphyxiant in a highly flammable gaseous substance
and is classified as dangerous under the Dangerous goods Act.
MacLaine Cross then lit a match that ignited the gas and caused a burst of flame. The
tops of the four passenger doors were bent outwards, part of the interior lining of the roof
and doors were melted or softened and the passenger side front window fractured into
hundreds of thousands of shards.
Maclaine Cross suffered first degree burns to his face and ears and second degree burns
to the back of his hands. Belsted suffered first degree burns to his face, McGregor first
degree burns to his face, cuts from the shards of glass and a graze to the cornea of one
eye and Reynolds suffered first degree burns to his face and neck.
Another observer, Dieter Helf suffered a cut forehead and hand.
The court was told that Dr Michael Belsted, representing a company of professional
refrigeration and air conditioning engineers, was preparing a presentation on refrigerants
for his client’s Chinese manufacturers and Greenpeace International. His clients were
seeking information on a concentration of hydrocarbon refrigerant in the passenger cabin
of a motor vehicle, which, if ignited, would cause no significant bodily injury or property
damage.
Since 1994, MacLaine Cross has specialised in the area of the safe use of hydrocarbon
refrigerants in cars.
He had conducted two similar experiments prior to 2001 and neither resulted in any
personal injury or property damage.
The court was told that since the experiment in 2001, MacLaine Cross had not conducted
any similar experiments and did not intend to do so in the future. He was planning to
retire from the university and workforce in February 2005.
In his written judgement, Chief Industrial Magistrate G Miller said “There is the need for
a general deterrence and to meet the community’s concern at workplace incidents. This,
in many respects, was described as probably a stupid incident when looking at the
particular circumstances and hindsight, no doubt the defendant thought otherwise prior to
the incident.
FOOTNOTE
The use of hydrocarbon refrigerant in vehicle air conditioning systems which are
designed for the only OEM approved refrigerant R134a, is banned in several Australian
states. Queensland had issued a Safety Alert on the use of hydrocarbons in this manner
and sought a recall of vehicles which had been charged with hydrocarbon refrigerant.
11-22-14, 12:52 AM
#283
Also, why would you bother when you can buy R-152a everywhere, so cheaply? And it's actually a recognized refrigerant.
I've used ES12a. It worked fine, but it's more expensive, you have to have a license to buy it, and then there's the whole flammability thing (which I think is a bit overstated in a vehicle filled with 10-20 gallons of gasoline, several quarts of oil, etc., Maclaine Cross' stupid experiment notwithstanding. Still worth noting, though).
I've used ES12a. It worked fine, but it's more expensive, you have to have a license to buy it, and then there's the whole flammability thing (which I think is a bit overstated in a vehicle filled with 10-20 gallons of gasoline, several quarts of oil, etc., Maclaine Cross' stupid experiment notwithstanding. Still worth noting, though).
03-18-15, 10:53 PM
#285
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The time has come. I have an 89 convertible I bought used (obviously) and I haven't a clue what type of refrigerant is in it now, it cools to a half-fan-speed center vent temp of 55F when moving, and creeps to low 60's at extended idle. The fittings are converted to a R134a style fitting.
Assuming it is R134a, and the dryer (which looks recent) has been replaced, would the current oils in the system be compatible with R152a (I believe I read this as a yes?)
Would there be any way of telling what type of oils are currently in the system and what type of refrigerant it is charged with?
I am going to pressure test tomorrow, and possibly evacuate and vacuum, I have access to all of the fancy machinery and my own personal A/C person at my job.
I am just absolutely lost at this lol.
Assuming it is R134a, and the dryer (which looks recent) has been replaced, would the current oils in the system be compatible with R152a (I believe I read this as a yes?)
Would there be any way of telling what type of oils are currently in the system and what type of refrigerant it is charged with?
I am going to pressure test tomorrow, and possibly evacuate and vacuum, I have access to all of the fancy machinery and my own personal A/C person at my job.
I am just absolutely lost at this lol.
03-21-15, 08:39 PM
#286
The time has come. I have an 89 convertible I bought used (obviously) and I haven't a clue what type of refrigerant is in it now, it cools to a half-fan-speed center vent temp of 55F when moving, and creeps to low 60's at extended idle. The fittings are converted to a R134a style fitting.
Assuming it is R134a, and the dryer (which looks recent) has been replaced, would the current oils in the system be compatible with R152a (I believe I read this as a yes?)
Would there be any way of telling what type of oils are currently in the system and what type of refrigerant it is charged with?
I am going to pressure test tomorrow, and possibly evacuate and vacuum, I have access to all of the fancy machinery and my own personal A/C person at my job.
I am just absolutely lost at this lol.
Assuming it is R134a, and the dryer (which looks recent) has been replaced, would the current oils in the system be compatible with R152a (I believe I read this as a yes?)
Would there be any way of telling what type of oils are currently in the system and what type of refrigerant it is charged with?
I am going to pressure test tomorrow, and possibly evacuate and vacuum, I have access to all of the fancy machinery and my own personal A/C person at my job.
I am just absolutely lost at this lol.
There is no way to know regarding the oil, unless you change it yourself.
NO PAG ever should go in a system that formerly had R12 and Mineral oil.
Ester oil is fine for 134a and for 152. More oil than necessary is harmful to performance, but maybe better than no oil. Add a couple of ounces of ester to be sure.
03-22-15, 09:12 AM
#291
MECP Certified Installer
Good question. I don't have gauges so I don't know but I pressed the valve near the drier assembly and it definitely has pressure. I have since removed the belt to the AC compressor, but before I did that, the compressor would run and wouldn't cycle like it had too much/too little pressure.
05-05-15, 01:42 PM
#292
So let me get this straight...
WHEN IN DOUBT:
-Pull A/C compressor, dump oil and fill with 3oz of ester oil (or same amount that comes out)
-Pull drier, replace with new unit, fill with 3 oz of oil
-replace orings at compressor and drier, dont touch others if they havent been opened.
-vacuum, purge lineset, fill with 16-20 oz of diflouroethane
sound about right?
WHEN IN DOUBT:
-Pull A/C compressor, dump oil and fill with 3oz of ester oil (or same amount that comes out)
-Pull drier, replace with new unit, fill with 3 oz of oil
-replace orings at compressor and drier, dont touch others if they havent been opened.
-vacuum, purge lineset, fill with 16-20 oz of diflouroethane
sound about right?
05-06-15, 09:08 PM
#293
So let me get this straight...
WHEN IN DOUBT:
-Pull A/C compressor, dump oil and fill with 3oz of ester oil (or same amount that comes out)
-Pull drier, replace with new unit, fill with 3 oz of oil
-replace o rings at compressor and drier, don't touch others if they haven't been opened.
-vacuum, purge line-set, fill with 16-20 oz of diflouroethane
sound about right?
WHEN IN DOUBT:
-Pull A/C compressor, dump oil and fill with 3oz of ester oil (or same amount that comes out)
-Pull drier, replace with new unit, fill with 3 oz of oil
-replace o rings at compressor and drier, don't touch others if they haven't been opened.
-vacuum, purge line-set, fill with 16-20 oz of diflouroethane
sound about right?
*Somebody's* been paying attention.
05-12-15, 08:37 PM
#294
So I just got my FD a few weeks ago. 100% stock. AC is the only thing not working.
Going to check if there is any pressure this weekend, but before then wanted to see what might be my options to getting it going again.
Anyone in north east Ohio convert to r152a yet? Willing to meet up and help? AC is not my favorite thing to work on.
Going to check if there is any pressure this weekend, but before then wanted to see what might be my options to getting it going again.
Anyone in north east Ohio convert to r152a yet? Willing to meet up and help? AC is not my favorite thing to work on.
07-17-15, 11:55 AM
#295
A/C Charging with Easy Cheap Safe Alternative Refrigerant
Gonna add another bump, i just did this with my 07 mercury grand marquis, according to the math i needed 17 point something of 152a, so i grabbed 2 8 oz cans from work ($2 and change a can) and rented the gauge set and pump from autozone ($300)
Granted it worked before ok with the 134a, but with just the 2 cans of 152a (mind you i'm a couple oz. under) HOLY ***** that blows ICE cold air. The compresser used to turn on and off at idle, now its running almost constant, and it works SO much better. I salute the OP who was a genous (yes, spelt wrong on purpose) who did the research on this
Granted it worked before ok with the 134a, but with just the 2 cans of 152a (mind you i'm a couple oz. under) HOLY ***** that blows ICE cold air. The compresser used to turn on and off at idle, now its running almost constant, and it works SO much better. I salute the OP who was a genous (yes, spelt wrong on purpose) who did the research on this
07-17-15, 07:48 PM
#296
Gonna add another bump, i just did this with my 07 mercury grand marquis, according to the math i needed 17 point something of 152a, so i grabbed 2 8 oz cans from work ($2 and change a can) and rented the gauge set and pump from autozone ($300)
Granted it worked before ok with the 134a, but with just the 2 cans of 152a (mind you i'm a couple oz. under) HOLY ***** that blows ICE cold air. The compresser used to turn on and off at idle, now its running almost constant, and it works SO much better. I salute the OP who was a genous (yes, spelt wrong on purpose) who did the research on this
Granted it worked before ok with the 134a, but with just the 2 cans of 152a (mind you i'm a couple oz. under) HOLY ***** that blows ICE cold air. The compresser used to turn on and off at idle, now its running almost constant, and it works SO much better. I salute the OP who was a genous (yes, spelt wrong on purpose) who did the research on this
07-17-15, 09:15 PM
#297
its tempting to charge people like $50 a pop and claim colder air, but than if for some reason they randomly get a leak they will come back to me and I don't like working on a/c systems other than recharging, so glad my ghetto cruiser held vacuum
