Break in on rebuild..and zero compression
09-23-14, 09:13 AM
#1
Break in on rebuild..and zero compression
Funny thing happened along the way to breaking in my rebuilt engine.....lost my front rotor.
Here is the original thread trying to figure out why my engine all the sudden started idling horribly
I don't know how it could have detonated. I was following proper break in driving. When the engine went to crap I was driving 30-35mph and maybe at 3500 rpms. The compression test showed no movement of the dial on any face. It was so dead that I thought maybe it wasn't screwed into the plug hole correctly.
I'm hoping that it's stuck seals and some seafoam will magically fix it all, but not very optimistic.
The reason I'm hopeful about stuck seals is that the engine has been running rich and part of the reason I hadn't driven it much in the year or year and half since I finished the rebuild was I was trying to get track down electrical problems and rich idle. When I pulled the front leading plug for compression test it was cover in wet with fuel and grit. When I saw the wet plug I was hoping I had found my front leading coil wasn't igniting or was firing weak. I'm hoping that a year and a half of barely driving it coupled with a bad coil has caused stuck seals. The same gunk that was on my plug is also on the seals and springs.
I know it's a long shot, but maybe if I pray to the rotary gods it will be true. The optimist in me rationalizes that stuck seals makes more sense than a detonation that took out all three apex seals. The realist in me is kinda thinking that I'm done with rotaries. I don't know that I have it in me to do a third rebuild.
Here is the original thread trying to figure out why my engine all the sudden started idling horribly
I don't know how it could have detonated. I was following proper break in driving. When the engine went to crap I was driving 30-35mph and maybe at 3500 rpms. The compression test showed no movement of the dial on any face. It was so dead that I thought maybe it wasn't screwed into the plug hole correctly.
I'm hoping that it's stuck seals and some seafoam will magically fix it all, but not very optimistic.
The reason I'm hopeful about stuck seals is that the engine has been running rich and part of the reason I hadn't driven it much in the year or year and half since I finished the rebuild was I was trying to get track down electrical problems and rich idle. When I pulled the front leading plug for compression test it was cover in wet with fuel and grit. When I saw the wet plug I was hoping I had found my front leading coil wasn't igniting or was firing weak. I'm hoping that a year and a half of barely driving it coupled with a bad coil has caused stuck seals. The same gunk that was on my plug is also on the seals and springs.
I know it's a long shot, but maybe if I pray to the rotary gods it will be true. The optimist in me rationalizes that stuck seals makes more sense than a detonation that took out all three apex seals. The realist in me is kinda thinking that I'm done with rotaries. I don't know that I have it in me to do a third rebuild.
09-23-14, 05:10 PM
#2
Red Pill Dealer
iTrader: (10)
Was the engine ported?
09-23-14, 08:23 PM
#4
No porting, the build is in the signature
I used FC3Spro.com break in procedure which has small amounts of boost after the first 1k miles. I had no boost before 1k and very little boost if ever after 1k miles. I drove the engine with a very light foot. It normally saw nothing close to the max of 5 psi boost FC3SPro.com recommended.
The engine would sit for weeks at a time not being started, which is what has me hopefully it's combination of weak firing coil and stuck seals....but I know that's a long shot.
I used FC3Spro.com break in procedure which has small amounts of boost after the first 1k miles. I had no boost before 1k and very little boost if ever after 1k miles. I drove the engine with a very light foot. It normally saw nothing close to the max of 5 psi boost FC3SPro.com recommended.
The engine would sit for weeks at a time not being started, which is what has me hopefully it's combination of weak firing coil and stuck seals....but I know that's a long shot.
09-23-14, 08:54 PM
#6
talking head
suspect you need a relax and then some motivation to dive in an pull off the front plate for a looksee
thinks however you may be looking at something like a front stat fail
and now the front rotor is not following its orbit correctly
if it is . a few bearings and an rx8 crank and it will be OK
.. not quite the same disaster as a trashed rotor and housing , just more labor and a longer learning curve
thinks however you may be looking at something like a front stat fail
and now the front rotor is not following its orbit correctly
if it is . a few bearings and an rx8 crank and it will be OK
.. not quite the same disaster as a trashed rotor and housing , just more labor and a longer learning curve
09-23-14, 09:40 PM
#7
Red Pill Dealer
iTrader: (10)
You'll find out. I was maybe thinking a bad port job killed the side seals.
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09-23-14, 10:46 PM
#8
I did all the work on it. No one else in my town has any experience to tap knowledge off of. I thought I had timing set, though trailing would never fall in line quite right. And it was never quite right, hence the reason it sat so much between rebuild and now. It was fouling plugs, or that was my best assumption as I've never delt with fouled plugs before. I'd put new plugs in and it would run awesome....but over time the "sound" of the idle and general running would degrade to sounding very "pooty" I had just put new plugs in maybe 30 miles before I lost compression.
I had thought I sorted out some electrical problems and was ready to look at timing again. I had found out that I needed to use an inductive timing light, NOT one that runs on AC power. I just bought the proper timing light and was ready to look at timing again..find out why my plugs were fouling.
The engine had always idled rich since the rebuild. I didn't own a wideband before the rebuild so I don't have a before and after comparison. But AFR would always sit between 10.7 and 11.2ish at idle.
Again, my hopes are that I have a weak firing L1 coil, which will account for the rich idle, fouling plugs. What with it sitting so long between running the engine the same gunk that was on the leading plug is also on my seals and springs.
My father has an immaculate OEM 91 convertible with low miles (less than 70k IIRC) which he drives very little. His stopped turning over and in working on it, I found he had zero compression on one of his rotors. Went from running fine to crap in one cranking of the engine and zero bumps on any face. Starter fluid brought his back to life, coupled with me taking it out redlining it a few times. There are some similarities in that we both drove the cars very little, when we did drive them it was light-footed driving, and the both spontaneously lost compression on all faces.
I was originally going to check my coils and seafoam my engine tomorrow, but things came up. It won't happen till Friday at the earliest.
I get where you are coming from on the step back and recharge kind of thing. When I saw I had zero compression I simply disconnected the battery and closed the hood. I still have my compression tester on the front housing and tools in the engine compartment. When I come and go I simply look at the car with contempt, like a lover who I know is cheating on me, I simply haven't caught her red-handed yet.
No matter what I will at least tear the engine down and find out what, why and when. But I just don't know if I have it in me for another rebuild. This will be the 3rd rebuild on this engine. First rebuild I overheated the engine setting up the Taurus efan. I haven't driven the car regularly in something like 3 years.
I'm in school for a 2nd degree, which I'll have in May and was banking on this rebuild to be a reliable daily driver long enough for me to relocate with a new job. Settle in, ditch my current daily driver (minivan pushing 200k miles) and have the turbo vert as my 3 season car. I simply don't know that I have it in me both financially and simply not having the time to sink into making this 20+ yr old car reliable.
If I can't make a rebuild happen before I move I may simply sit on the car and engine till I have both time and money.....but it's already been 3 years that this car has been mocking me as I leave my house every day.
Yeah I figured you were thinking just that. I intentionally kept my first rebuild simple as I can.....to reduce the variables on how many things I could screw up.
I had thought I sorted out some electrical problems and was ready to look at timing again. I had found out that I needed to use an inductive timing light, NOT one that runs on AC power. I just bought the proper timing light and was ready to look at timing again..find out why my plugs were fouling.
The engine had always idled rich since the rebuild. I didn't own a wideband before the rebuild so I don't have a before and after comparison. But AFR would always sit between 10.7 and 11.2ish at idle.
Again, my hopes are that I have a weak firing L1 coil, which will account for the rich idle, fouling plugs. What with it sitting so long between running the engine the same gunk that was on the leading plug is also on my seals and springs.
My father has an immaculate OEM 91 convertible with low miles (less than 70k IIRC) which he drives very little. His stopped turning over and in working on it, I found he had zero compression on one of his rotors. Went from running fine to crap in one cranking of the engine and zero bumps on any face. Starter fluid brought his back to life, coupled with me taking it out redlining it a few times. There are some similarities in that we both drove the cars very little, when we did drive them it was light-footed driving, and the both spontaneously lost compression on all faces.
I was originally going to check my coils and seafoam my engine tomorrow, but things came up. It won't happen till Friday at the earliest.
suspect you need a relax and then some motivation to dive in an pull off the front plate for a looksee
thinks however you may be looking at something like a front stat fail
and now the front rotor is not following its orbit correctly
if it is . a few bearings and an rx8 crank and it will be OK
.. not quite the same disaster as a trashed rotor and housing , just more labor and a longer learning curve
thinks however you may be looking at something like a front stat fail
and now the front rotor is not following its orbit correctly
if it is . a few bearings and an rx8 crank and it will be OK
.. not quite the same disaster as a trashed rotor and housing , just more labor and a longer learning curve
No matter what I will at least tear the engine down and find out what, why and when. But I just don't know if I have it in me for another rebuild. This will be the 3rd rebuild on this engine. First rebuild I overheated the engine setting up the Taurus efan. I haven't driven the car regularly in something like 3 years.
I'm in school for a 2nd degree, which I'll have in May and was banking on this rebuild to be a reliable daily driver long enough for me to relocate with a new job. Settle in, ditch my current daily driver (minivan pushing 200k miles) and have the turbo vert as my 3 season car. I simply don't know that I have it in me both financially and simply not having the time to sink into making this 20+ yr old car reliable.
If I can't make a rebuild happen before I move I may simply sit on the car and engine till I have both time and money.....but it's already been 3 years that this car has been mocking me as I leave my house every day.
Yeah I figured you were thinking just that. I intentionally kept my first rebuild simple as I can.....to reduce the variables on how many things I could screw up.
09-23-14, 11:41 PM
#10
Life said NOPE!!
09-24-14, 07:58 AM
#12
When I first started breaking in the engine I was concerned that I could not drive the car very easily without getting into boost. I have my MBC set for lowest possible setting but the wastegate on the OEM turbo simply couldn't bypass all the pressure. Because of that concern I really only drove the car for short errand runs to get the engine warmed up and see how it's behaving. I was always light-footed, but pressure would rise above atmospheric every so often. I tried to avoid it but didn't freak out if it did.
As far as tuning the car, there aren't any shops that wanted to touch my car. Most mechanics and shops in my town suffered from the stereotypical ,"rotary? no, we don't work on those." One of the good things about relocating for career was that I'd end up in a larger town (probably headed to Indy) where there would be some rotary shops, or at least tuner shops.
With my father's engine, it wasn't just sounding like zero compression. It stopped turning over and after working on it some we ended up compression testing it. It actually had zero compression. If not for me my father would have sold the car as having a blown engine.
09-24-14, 10:24 AM
#13
I used to turn a pretty good profit buying FCs with "blown engines"
one of them a then 50k mile vert from a guy in chicago that aspec told he needed an engine.
Fast forward 9 years later the guy I sold it to STILL drives it and loves it
break in is one thing, but boosting without a tune is huge no-no. You might get lucky once or twice but a rotary is pretty sensitive under boost when not tuned properly. It can literally be a single trip out with the car to do the damage.
If there is no one to tune your car its a big problem you need to either trailer it out of town or maybe have a group tuning session with some other rotary guys and fly someone in
one of them a then 50k mile vert from a guy in chicago that aspec told he needed an engine.
Fast forward 9 years later the guy I sold it to STILL drives it and loves it
break in is one thing, but boosting without a tune is huge no-no. You might get lucky once or twice but a rotary is pretty sensitive under boost when not tuned properly. It can literally be a single trip out with the car to do the damage.
If there is no one to tune your car its a big problem you need to either trailer it out of town or maybe have a group tuning session with some other rotary guys and fly someone in
09-24-14, 10:50 AM
#14
I used to turn a pretty good profit buying FCs with "blown engines"
one of them a then 50k mile vert from a guy in chicago that aspec told he needed an engine.
Fast forward 9 years later the guy I sold it to STILL drives it and loves it
break in is one thing, but boosting without a tune is huge no-no. You might get lucky once or twice but a rotary is pretty sensitive under boost when not tuned properly. It can literally be a single trip out with the car to do the damage.
If there is no one to tune your car its a big problem you need to either trailer it out of town or maybe have a group tuning session with some other rotary guys and fly someone in
one of them a then 50k mile vert from a guy in chicago that aspec told he needed an engine.
Fast forward 9 years later the guy I sold it to STILL drives it and loves it
break in is one thing, but boosting without a tune is huge no-no. You might get lucky once or twice but a rotary is pretty sensitive under boost when not tuned properly. It can literally be a single trip out with the car to do the damage.
If there is no one to tune your car its a big problem you need to either trailer it out of town or maybe have a group tuning session with some other rotary guys and fly someone in
03-21-15, 04:00 PM
#15
I hadn't opened the hood since my last post in this thread. I've both been disgusted and busy so the car has sat, with the compression tester still in the plug hole.
I brought a scope home from work and stuck it in the front rotor and found a gouge on one of the rotor faces. Looks like I'm either rebuilding or parting out. Haven't decided which yet.
I brought a scope home from work and stuck it in the front rotor and found a gouge on one of the rotor faces. Looks like I'm either rebuilding or parting out. Haven't decided which yet.
03-21-15, 06:48 PM
#16
Rotary Enthusiast
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Need to not give up and dive in. Learn from mistakes and move forward. If that can't be done, move on and let some one willing breathe life backing into it.
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