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So this is it. 3 folks at my shop are building engines this summer, and 3 years after acquiring all the new parts, its time to stop procrastinating and build this thing.
Little short background, I am a state certified master mechanic, about 8 years of wrenching experience as a full time job. Complicated timing chains, piston engine rebuilds, manual trans rebuilds, are all old hat to me by this point. When my FC blew out the water seal slot on the center plate I decided I wanted to do this right the first time. Bought a used, running S4 keg, stripped it down, Housings and rotors were junk. Brought the plates to Chips, had them lightly lapped and nitrided (after his approval), bought a clean matched set of rotors, had them professionally vapor honed by a local shop, then went to Pineapple and ordered a brand new set of TII housings, and because I was at a chain dealer, I was able to source a brand new eccentric shaft for dirt cheap. I also have a box of all new replacement Mazda seals, bearings, the works. (as a secondary question, should I run over to Atkins and buy their solid corner seals? Already have FD springs.
As far as I know all the parts are here, all the parts are the best options currently available to me (before going to billet rotors and carbon apex seals, but the car is staying N/A w/ ITBs and a Haltech, I got a vision for this car to be like Porsches old "factory lightweight" 911s, basically a GTUs on steroids, turbo may be in the cards in the far far future but I would probably be doing this all over by then)
My biggest concern is that throughout my one engine rebuild, number of manual trans rebuilds, modern timing chain jobs, etc etc, Ive always had either a well written book on hand, or factory repair instructions.
So, what is my absolute BEST resource for rebuilding this thing? Understanding that this engine came apart 3 years ago, And a lot of what I "learned" tearing it down has exited the brain. I have a vague understanding still of stacking the motor, and to the best of my knowledge (per Chip looking the parts over when I brought the plates in, and lapping the plates and checking+cleaning the rotors) everthing is well within spec in terms of wear. I just dont want to run into a situation where something gets done wrong (seen countless posts on here of shops tearing down "rebuilt" engines and finding things done wildly wrong) due to trying to pick and piece information together with various search queries.
I have a fully equipped shop to work at with a "hobbyist" level machine shop in the back. Im not a novice to wrenching by any stretch of the imagination, but obviously the best weapon when tackling something new is knowledge. I will have an old cranky machinist on hand at all times, and 2 other very experienced ASE master techs just in case too. Though none of them have even held a rotor before (besides the prototype corvette rotors I bought at a yard sale down the street, I should probably post those on here some day).
Thanks for any tips, tricks, links, whatever in advance.
Unfortunately in regards to mocking up with an old engine, I was far too nice and lent the cracked center plate, worn beyond use housings, and probably ok front and rear irons to a local guy to use as a mockup for installing a rotary in his Miata. Of course as the saying "No good deed goes unpunished" goes, the dude took several months of shuffling his feet, which I just shrugged off as life happening, then went silent, and last I heard, sold everything and moved out to Arizona. Still had my motor mounts on it too .
Im definitely looking everything over and firmly hold that anyone who says "Rotary is easier than piston" is talking out their butt. SO. MUCH. CRAP. haha.
Any tips for cutting the side seals? Getting the bevel incorrect seems like a real possibilty. Is Pineapple Racings little aluminum side seal cutter tool overkill? Am I too worried about this?
A guy about 10 minutes from the shop got the cooling pressure tester so im definitely planning on trying to borrow that when I get the chance.
Unfortunately in regards to mocking up with an old engine, I was far too nice and lent the cracked center plate, worn beyond use housings, and probably ok front and rear irons to a local guy to use as a mockup for installing a rotary in his Miata. Of course as the saying "No good deed goes unpunished" goes, the dude took several months of shuffling his feet, which I just shrugged off as life happening, then went silent, and last I heard, sold everything and moved out to Arizona. Still had my motor mounts on it too .
i'm sorry, this was just funny to me, not the fact that it happened to you, but because when i was younger, i came across so many people like that guy and i know how exactly how you feel.
Im definitely looking everything over and firmly hold that anyone who says "Rotary is easier than piston" is talking out their butt. SO. MUCH. CRAP. haha.
Any tips for cutting the side seals? Getting the bevel incorrect seems like a real possibilty. Is Pineapple Racings little aluminum side seal cutter tool overkill? Am I too worried about this?
A guy about 10 minutes from the shop got the cooling pressure tester so im definitely planning on trying to borrow that when I get the chance.
as someone who has built both, rotaries are definitely easier. they have their own unique challenges, but overall, i think they are easier. i much rather cut side seals than piston rings and check gaps in the bore. don't get me started on rebuilding an Audi cylinder head ....
that said, i've heard the Pineapple seal cutter is easy to use and i would trust that if they are selling it, then it gives you the right angle. if you can find a way to include it in your budget, then go for it. if not, there are probably other ways to skin that particular cat.
i think the cooling system tester is a great tool. if you have access to one, USE it! it is something i plan to invest in for my next build.
[QUOTE=diabolical1;12594070] i'm sorry, this was just funny to me, not the fact that it happened to you, but because when i was younger, i came across so many people like that guy and i know how exactly how you feel.
Yeah, when I was “younger” (only by a few years but just about at 30 so) I tried to be cool with everyone. Got burned so many times, people not paying for parts I “pay me later”d on, loaning tools and stuff out and never seeing it again. People suck. I used to wrench for free, only pay me for the parts. Stupid. Half the time I wouldn’t even get paid for the parts, and if I did, they bitched when I came to collect.
I too would recommend the FSM as far a manual goes and the videos already posted. For the side seals people may cringe but my first engine I think I just rubbed them on a piece of sandpaper. IIRC too much work. Current engine I used a sanding drum on a dremel. I did try to pay attention to the angle somewhat. Probably wasn't perfect but it did have an angle. I'd say the pineapple tool isn't a bad way to go. You mention running ITB's and a Haltech. I would give some serious consideration to doing a street port while it's apart as well. Hardest part about assembling a rotary is probably all the pieces on the rotors and getting everything to stay put while you put it together but even that isn't that bad. Easier than a piston engine. Yeah probably easier than most of them unless you're talking about a top end on a two-stroke.
Bit misleading on my part, the ITBs are a future project. Right now I got a used Racing Beat Holley intake and carb for the 6 port engine. Ease of use and all. Plus I’m a carb guy at heart what with all my other projects being big loud American V8s lol.
Im kicking the idea of porting around quite a bit but I’ve never done anything like it, not even cylinder heads. Also I have to imagine that porting at this point, with the plates nitrided, would entail having the whole nitriding process redone?
I’m also curious as to the efficacy of porting the exhaust? I’d be REAL nervous about that being brand new housings and all…
Bit misleading on my part, the ITBs are a future project. Right now I got a used Racing Beat Holley intake and carb for the 6 port engine. Ease of use and all. Plus I’m a carb guy at heart what with all my other projects being big loud American V8s lol.
Im kicking the idea of porting around quite a bit but I’ve never done anything like it, not even cylinder heads. Also I have to imagine that porting at this point, with the plates nitrided, would entail having the whole nitriding process redone?
I’m also curious as to the efficacy of porting the exhaust? I’d be REAL nervous about that being brand new housings and all…
Since you're only making the openings bigger and not really touching the surface any of the rotor seals/ parts ride on I wouldn't think you would have to re-nitride the plates. Someone else will have to chime in on the efficancy of exhaust porting but I think it does have benefits. I did both my intake and exhaust, so I have no experience with just doing the intake. Yeah, I had brand new TII housings when I ported my exhaust. I was a little nervous but I did it anyway as that was my plan from the start. I 'd say get a porting template and be careful. Also I watched some of Aaron Cake's videos. He has some on porting as well.
Thanks, does anyone else have input on the nitriding with the porting? I may just attempt to go for it, leaning on the more conservative side of the port. I halfway plan on eventually doing something a bit more aggressive with the engine in a chase for power, but my motor popped halfway through getting the chassis exactly how I want it, and Id rather have a slow car that handles like its on rails than a fast car with sloppy worn bushings and crap brakes. So I figure ill build this engine out stock, and at a later date, go back through and see what I can do to squeeze a bit more top end out of it. Maybe turbo, maybe not.
So, question, I got everything to the shop and looked it over. Everything looks fine but one thing stood out to me. I had a local shop (no names yet) press the rotor bearings in for me. One looked great. The other, well, looked like the pictures. This looks like it could be a problem, especially where the physical rotor looks damaged at the bearing area. There are nail catchers in the bearing, probably occurred sometime over the last 3 years but I don’t know how comfortable I am pressing a new bearing in with the rotor looking like that…thoughts?
this looks to me like a recipe for a spun bearing
... does anyone else have input on the nitriding with the porting?
porting does not require you to re-nitride the side housing surfaces. you'd be changing the size of the aperture (the shape you see looking at sealing surface of the housing), but other than that most of the work is done inside the port itself. so you're not doing anything to the sealing surface.
as for whether or not to port, an argument could be made either way. you already have the engine apart, so there's that. you are also expressing what sounds like some long-term plans for the car, so maybe you can wait.
EDIT
with regards to the rotor/bearing: i would imagine that the rotor itself is fine as long as the part that got pinched will not interfere with the stationary gear. the bearing itself, i'm not 100% sure about what the right thing to do. if they damaged it during install, then why can't you take it back to them? at the same time, if they messed it up the first time, then what's to stop them messing it up again - maybe worse?
EDIT
with regards to the rotor/bearing: i would imagine that the rotor itself is fine as long as the part that got pinched will not interfere with the stationary gear. the bearing itself, i'm not 100% sure about what the right thing to do. if they damaged it during install, then why can't you take it back to them? at the same time, if they messed it up the first time, then what's to stop them messing it up again - maybe worse?
about 4 years of time is what’s stopping me.
fwiw it was Chip, so I’d assume if it was deemed ok by him it should be fine? I just don’t like how that rotor looks damaged. Hate for that piece to break off…
EDIT
with regards to the rotor/bearing: i would imagine that the rotor itself is fine as long as the part that got pinched will not interfere with the stationary gear. the bearing itself, i'm not 100% sure about what the right thing to do. if they damaged it during install, then why can't you take it back to them? at the same time, if they messed it up the first time, then what's to stop them messing it up again - maybe worse?
about 4 years of time is what’s stopping me.
fwiw it was Chip, so I’d assume if it was deemed ok by him it should be fine? I just don’t like how that rotor looks damaged. Hate for that piece to break off…
well, maybe it's worth running it by him and seeing what he has to say. i don't know him personally, but from what i've seen of him (and his work) he knows rotaries enough for his opinions/advice to have weight.
fwiw it was Chip, so I’d assume if it was deemed ok by him it should be fine? I just don’t like how that rotor looks damaged. Hate for that piece to break off…
Just to echo what others have said I personally bought the Mazdatrix rebuild DVD and also watched Aaron Cake's YouTube video many times. I actually printed off the FSM and watched both while making notes. Even with all that prep work I still tore one of the water jacket seals for the rear rotor while putting hylomar on and had to order a whole new set and start over. Good luck and have fun.
Just to echo what others have said I personally bought the Mazdatrix rebuild DVD and also watched Aaron Cake's YouTube video many times. I actually printed off the FSM and watched both while making notes. Even with all that prep work I still tore one of the water jacket seals for the rear rotor while putting hylomar on and had to order a whole new set and start over. Good luck and have fun.
Hence why Im glad to have someone local with the little bolt on pressure tester setup, gonna save me a big headache if something rolls or falls out.
02-24-24, 09:38 AM
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i'm sorry, this was just funny to me, not the fact that it happened to you, but because when i was younger, i came across so many people like that guy and i know how exactly how you feel.
it is something i plan to invest in for my next build.
