13bturbo2

Hey guys, i haven't been on here a while, i think my last post was like 4-5 years ago, but i'm back.

Just got my hands on a modified '90 TII that hasn't been started in over 3 years more or less. Won't start obviously but I did the usual check for reasons why it wouldn't start. The engine has compression, i have spark, i figured that the problem was either the pump or the injectors, turns out it was both. So I'm going to end up ordering some stuff for the car.

Now this is where you guys come in:
The TII i bought has a Turbonetics T60-1 turbo, custom intercooler piping (and by custom it sucks, i'll need to probably see if somebody down here will be able to fabricate something that flows way better.), front mount that looks like a Skyline's, MSD ignition, MSD timing control(i really have no idea how this works), Greddy Profec B (yeah just profec B the old one), it also has auxilliary injectors in the custom intercooler piping which i was wondering if i could just eliminate, and that's about it...it was running on the stock 550cc injectors, and the computer doesn't seem to be modified.

Now I wanted to upgrade the fuel system, i mean who doesn't when going for big power, now its not that i want tons of power, looking for at least 300whp or a bit more off of this setup.

I was thinking of getting:
1. Walbro 255lph HP Fuel pump I mean i think it had the stock one and it looked like it had come off the titanic, literally it had stuff all over it.
2. Injectors: 720cc's all around or 750cc's all around, i'm not looking into getting a standalone yet. So i was reading that the RTek v1.8 works with at least 720cc injectors all around.
3. Rtek ecu chip
4. Ordering new fuel filter, new oil filter, new sparkplugs.

And that's pretty much it, i mean it's not starting up yet, and hasn't because the 550s it had 2 were stuck and wouldn't open i'm sure the fuel pump doesn't send enough gas to start up, and i'm using sparkplugs that aren't the cars. It wants to start but i was thinking obviously not going to if it doesn't have the right stuff...so what do you guys think of the fuel set up? Any suggestions would be welcome. Any tips for firing it up would be nice too, i mean i've read several faqs about starting up a stock flooded and how to unflood an rx7 but not a modified one, i'm pretty sure the same principal applies.

But yeah, suggestions would be great.

Thanks!

PS Where would you guys recommend i get these items? and what brand injectors, etc.

mperformance

Nice to see another TII come to life.
Regarding stand alone...thing about spending on it right away with the turbo you got. If not ditch that turbo and use the stock one. I went the same way and if I had to do it again I would go with the stock turbo and then upgrade. Start with fuel then boost.

I would go with either haltech or if you want to spend some time figuring out how to wire some custom boards Megasquirt.

I got the same setup u got with a 60-1 turbonetics, 680cc primaries and 1600cc secondaries. Stock ignition, running a megasquirt controlling everything. Car is daily driven.

13bturbo2

i know that this topic has more than 1 question in it. but i just wanted to see what you guys thought of the set up or had any suggestions as to what i should or shouldn't do. I still don't want to go standalone because i'm not a tuner kind of person and you don't come by them here so frecuently.

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

The problem with not using a standalone for that turbo is the fact that you're going to end up with a blown engine. The Rtek 1.x ECUs provide what is basically stock fuel. Fuel is pulled from the map to compensate for the larger injectors, and that even includes when under boost. The duty cycles are reduced to make the overall amount of fuel going in the same as with 4x550cc injectors. Timing is nearly the same way. It's stock, but with an additonal 1 degree pulled for each psi over 9. You don't have to tune the thing yourself, if you find someone that can do it for you.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

with a T04e, and a MoTeC, my 750cc sec were running out. I was using most of the fuel they could handle and went with 1600cc sec.

If that turbo is anything like the T04e, 720s and a Rtek wont be enough. I would ditch that turbo for now. Sell it or put it on the shelf. Go with a stock or BNR hybrid until you get things running smooth.

I think the RTek, Walbro, and 720s is a great route with a stock-ish turbo.

Also, if there was rust on that fuel pump, I would check the tank more closely. I lost a Walbro because of a rusty tank. On my next tank, I used POR 15 gas tank sealer. ($80)

13bturbo2

what if i run under 9 psi of boost for now using that turbo? i mean i'm not going to stress it if it can't be stressed.

stylemon yeah i think i need a new tank.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

9 psi is all I ran with the T04e when I ran out of fuel. There is much more volume and velocity with a large turbo.

13bturbo2

stylemon i know that a larger turbo implies more volume and more velocity. but if i'm understanding correctly, going stand alone and larger injectors will allow me to play around with more boost.

but i don't want to go stand alone yet. for reasons of not wanting to spend that much money if the car hasn't even started up yet.

keeping in mind that i bought it modified already = i don't have a stock turbo which i would've slapped on and kept the car as close to stock as possible. since i don't have the option i was just thinking of doing the fuel upgrade and a minor ecu upgrade. the problem that i see here though isn't the fuel delivery now it's the size of the turbo i'm running.

so i guess a more pertinent question to this thread should be: with this fuel setup and ecu setup, how much boost can i run safely for a while before i go standalone (possibly next year)?

thanks for the replies!

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

zero psi.
the ecu does not give you the option to play around with boost. that is the job of the boost controller and wastegate spring.

you have the option to go stock turbo, you just dont like that option. you can sell that turbo to buy a stocker. without a standalone oe safc, you should not run that turbo.

what manifold are you using and what size wastegate spring?

why dont you get this car running first. then worry about boost.

13bturbo2

i know the ecu doesn't give me the option to play around with boost. which is why i also have a boost controller. oh and getting my hands on an safc wouldn't be difficult. i just don't see the point of it if its only ''going to run a little bit richer than it should using 750cc's all around'' according to turbo2ltr in the rtek section of the forum.

i don't like the option of going stock turbo because if i want to go larger later on then selling my current turbo to go stock and then back again sounds like a waste of money. i don't have the option because i live in Panama, coming by a stock s5 turbo is pretty darn difficult and simply ordering one will just take forever.

its an hks manifold and it looks like a pretty large wastegate. i haven't gotten to parting it out yet cause i haven't had the time.

the idea is to get the car up and running which is why i ordered the parts. i'm not spazzing out on how much boost i can run, i just wanted to know if i could run that turbo with that fuel set up at stock boost levels safely...obviously not exceeding an amount that'll eventually lead to detonation.

btw you're making it sound as if i were some sort of newb to this...i understand all of your replies and respect every opinion you're giving out but you're coming off as ''hey you're doing it all wrong here''. i got the car a couple of weeks ago in its current state and was just asking if it could run on the fuel set up i specified. i have knowledge of it running on that turbo with stock injectors but using auxillary injectors and on a stock ecu. Unfortunately, the AIC was stolen hence me wanting to remove the auxillary injectors all together.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

This seems like misinformation to me.

SAFC is not an RTek. So I don't know why you are referencing the RTek forum for info on additional injector control.

With a stock ECU, you cannot safely run 720s; Only stock 550s and stock boost on a stock turbo.

With an RTek, you can safely run 720cc secondaries and 10-12 psi on a stock-ish turbo.

With a SAFC, you can control those additional injectors you have, AND larger secondaries. I don't know what the limits for injector size are with the various SAFCs around, but I do know that you can control up to 6 or 8 injectors... and you CAN run a large turbo with an SAFC.

If it is difficult to get a stock turbo down to you, then your only real option is to either take the wastegate spring out and run no boost until you get a standalone (not a viable option tho), or get a SAFC until you get a standalone. Your turbo will overboost if you put a 4psi spring in the wastegate, so there really is no safety measure there.

You keep asking the same question different ways, and a couple of us have given you the safe answer. There are several ways to reach the same goal, so there is no right way. However, what you are trying to piece together sounds like the wrong way. I've seen a couple engines explode because of VERY similar methods you are trying to pass off... One was mine. So any info/suggestions I offer, are to stop you from blowing the engine.

EDIT* I know it seems like you landed a great turbo, and maybe you did. But chances are, the turbo will need a rebuild or freshening up anyway. Have you checked for oil in the intake tract? Is there shaft play? I understand that you may eventually like to run that size turbo, but there are many complications on the way to running a big turbo. I mean, the car doesn't even run yet.

From someone who has spent WAY too much on their motor/turbo, you probably have a long way to go before you are pushing 9psi safely on that turbo.

13bturbo2

Additional injector control? Now you've just confirmed my theory of you not reading my post right. No disrespect or anything but at no point have i mentioned adding an AIC.

Again I know that an SAFC isn't an Rtek and at no point did i mention it was. I quoted the Rtek forum because running 750cc injectors all around (now, for you not to misunderstand all around means all 4 injectors right?. No additional injectors.) as said by turbo2ltr with an Rtek v1.8 would run a little bit richer but not as rich as to cause any problems.

You mentioned an SAFC in your last post for which i said: There's no problem for me getting my hands on an SAFC....doesn't sound to me that mentioned that a Rtek was an SAFC there. Why would you mention this? Answer: I know that with the SAFC i can adjust for larger injectors...not actually fine tune which i know too.

So let me simplify the question now before this gets out of hand and you start misreading everything i'm writing again.

Will it run or not?

BTW: My reference as to how much boost can i run safely, was to your answer of: "9 psi is all I ran with the T04e when I ran out of fuel." I know that the T60-1 is a larger turbo than your T04e but the question is, regardless of the size, can i run it with boost? I'm not saying 30psi, not saying 20psi, not saying 10 psi, i said stock boost levels. 5-8 psi. Again i'm seeing that i have to rephrase a lot of this so that you don't misread the post.

Again no disrespect or anything styleEmon but it just feels to me like you're misreading my posts. I know you're giving me info to prevent my engine from popping and i thank you for that.

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

The thing is, nobody can tell you exactly how much boost you can safely run on that turbo. There are many factors involved, and the only way you would be able to find the limit is by checking your AFRs with a wideband (or EGTs, etc...). If you get an AFC, you can add fuel to correct for lean spots that will inevitably show up, but you will have zero control over the timing. Stock timing is in no way suitable for a big turbo, so for that reason alone, I would keep boost very low (5 psi or less?). Only through testing at low boost levels will you have any idea what is "safe." That's the problem with trying to tune a car for a big turbo w/ a stock (or stock-like) ECU. You're more or less just guessing what might be ok.

Then there's another thing to consider: if you ran a stock turbo at 12psi on the Rtek, you would be a lot faster than if you run a handicapped T60-1. Big turbos are very inefficient at low boost levels, will be laggy, and will make boost much later than the stock turbo.

13bturbo2

i have an msd timing controller...i have no idea how to use that again it came with the car. but i'll look up a couple faqs and instruction manuals for it.

thanks for the reply rr88.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

Well thanks for simplifying for me. Simpler is better, as a matter of fact, that is what I've been trying to tell you all along.

You did mention additional injector control. You said QUOTE:

Did you mean "Auxillary Injection? They mean different things.
Furthermore, if you want to go with a SAFC, you can keep the big turbo and use additional injectors. I meant this as a suggestion to allow you to keep the turbo you have, thinking you already had additional injectors in you IC piping. Although, I would move them to the LIM.

If you have Auxiliary Injection, rather than injectors, this obviously would take more work. So YOU may have been unclear about what you have on the car, meaning I read correctly...

In trying to read this right,
... you think a SAFC will only run a little richer than a RTek? You can tell a SAFC how lean or rich to tune... That's what it do.

Fine tune is a broad term. It really depends on the resolution of your map provided by the SAFC.

I've told you, and RR88 has told you, and mperformance has told you that you CANNOT safely run that turbo without a standalone or SAFC. With that turbo, at 5psi, you are technically NOT at stock boost. There is much more air volume, requiring much more fuel.

I am very curious as to how would you run 5 psi on that turbo? How, mechanically, would YOU get that turbo to boost at 5 psi with a straight exhaust. I can't control my smaller T04e at 9 psi with straight exhaust...

This combined with this:

should end the thread.
We are all trying to steer you to a stock-ish turbo and you don't seem to like that answer. With this car, there are SO many variables in the air; car not running, auxiliary injectors or injection, shotty IC piping, stock ECU, Large turbo, timing control,

You are biting off more than you can chew and we are trying to simplify. Sell the MSD and Turbo to fund a haltech and a stock turbo. Even a BNR will make your power goal and spool quickly.

I feel like you are clouding this thread with all kinds of questions and excuses why I don't understand what you're saying or I misread... Bottom line is you are trying to daisy chain a timing controller you know nothing about to a chipped ECU you don't even have yet, and make them fuel a large turbo that won't perform well until 18 psi on a motor that doesn't run.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-rx-7-1986-1992-parts-194/fs-haltech-e6k-ecu-841348/

https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-rx-7-1986-1992-parts-194/turbo-manifold-842758/

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

StylEmon, he said he had additional injectors, but someone stole the controller. So, basically, the injectors are useless at the moment.

And the quote from turbo2ltr in the Rtek section was to answer the question about whether 750cc injectors would work with an Rtek 1.8, since it was intended for 720cc injectors. The additional 30ccs will just lead to a 4% increase in fuel. It's unrelated to talk of using an SAFC.

Also, good point about even trying to run something like 5psi on that turbo. The wastegate spring will surely be rated for a much higher level, and even if you can find one soft enough, it may still overwhelm the wastegate and creep.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

Oh! Now I see what was meant by the RTek "running a litter richer" Thanks for clearing that up.

If this is the case, then I've been correct all along. Follow me:
He has the injectors already in place.
He can easily obtain a SAFC to control those AND tune for larger primaries and secondaries.
He can then use those injectors and keep the large turbo.

But I don't think that's the case after he bit my head off tho.
I think maybe they are for water/meth...?
Pics might clear this up.

It WILL overboost. the ONLY way he will get it to boost predictably at 5 psi is with 8 mufflers.

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

Yeah, using an SAFC to control extra injectors would work, but it still won't be what I'd call "safe." SAFCs are pretty crude, and a lack of timing control would be deadly. I'm not sure what the capabilities are of the MSD box, but I would assume it would be RPM based timing adjustments. I can't see it having a boost input, which would be the ideal case.

I was thinking a couple of potatoes jammed in the exhaust work would well for short bursts.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

HAHAHA!!! I love it.. The Brand New Rotary Potatoes Launcher!!!

You are probably dead on with the SAFC. I've seen it done before with decent power levels, but really, a standalone is the best option. Hands down.

13bturbo2

really thanks again guys... i didnt mean to bite your head off bro, which is why i was saying that i wasn't disrespecting your comments. i'm also taking them into consideration.

yes it does have aux. injectors in the piping right before the intake manifold. if they can be controlled by the safc as well maybe it would work with the turbo right? the only thing is not being able to correct the timing which is what rr88 is saying.

and btw, not biting your head off here again or anything, but i'm not trying to daisy around anything, i'm just asking what if's and what can's here. its better to ask before trying out something new isn't it? which is why i was asking so many questions at once.'

i'm just trying to piece everything together first theoretically before putting it into practice...scientific method.

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

^ Pretty much the gist of it.

Also, "auxiliary injection" is usually used to talk about water or methanol injection, while "additional injectors" specifies extra fuel injectors. The similarity in terms seems to have lead to some confusion in the thread.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

i was just messing when I said, "bite me head off" (see )

What you are doing is wise. Asking questions first, trying to find a plan of attack, plan it out in your mind. All good things. There are just a lot of questions and variables here that lead to confusion. It's best to try to get one question/answer at a time, but in this case, each element really effects the next question.

What I meant by "Daisy Chain" is string together. You have two separate computers that would need to communicate. Daisy Chain is a term I use when linking multiple computers together.

Really, we all just want you to take the most orthodox approach. Everyone likes to see different ways of doing things, but No One likes to see blown rotaries.

Good luck. Post pics and keep us in the loop.

mperformance

UPDATE:

Let me know about the stock turbo D. Manuel from Turbomaster does want this stock turbo I got. He is going to make it a hybrid unless u want this, he does awesome work. He wants his car running also though and I struck a deal with him yesterday. He rebuilt my 60-1 and had it balanced right in front of me. I highly recommend his work now.

I'm going to check out his car this weekend.

Seems like you got your answer.

One thing I do want to mention, I hardly boost over 9psi with the 60-1 I got (your setup) IT WILL NOT OVERBOOST (with a nice wastegate I got a big TiAL and a manual boost controller), car is laggy as hell with the big FMIC and I have yet to completely tune the megasquirt so I have a smooth AFR curve. With the big turbo I can garantee you an unsatisfying driving experience without proper engine management these turbos show their face at about 11psi+ which I personally feel is just too much power for my driving style now days... Im getting old.

With the stock turbo you will be having fun in no time with the Rtek or alike.

Go big right away or start stock...trust me.

BTW I got my hands busy with the RX8, big debate now with bridgeporting a turbo renesis. so much fun. TTL