87_rocket

I searched, couldnt find the solution.
I have a 1987 N/A base, and the autmatic warm-up rarely works. Even on cold mornings, the car will start without the aws. Not a big deal, but i would like to fix it. If someone could tell me how to fix this, or direct me to a similar thread, that would be great. Thanks

Funkspectrum

iTrader: (5)

meh...I hate it...it's annoying as ****. The acellerated warm up system thing is just there to warm up the precats if I remember correctly...

if you don't have precats, its pointless...

t-von

iTrader: (8)

It's not pointless. It also has another benefit. Our engines inject a ton of fuel during a cold start-up. AWS also helps the engine burn off that excess unburnt fuel during a cold start-up. Any fuel left over eventually turns into carbon deposits. I use to also blip the throttle during start-up but after doing more research, I found that it's completely harmless. My Fd has a down pipe (no pre cat) and over 100k on the original engine and runs perfect. Ever since I started letting the AWS do it's thing, I've noticed that the engine runs a little smoother. I can also start the cold engine, let the AWS do it's thing, shut the engine off, and immediately re-start the car and it will "never" flood.

NZConvertible

This is BS. Any excess fuel is burn up the second the engine starts firing normally. Do you really think this fuel just sits unburt in the chambers while normal combustion takes place? That's nuts...

AWS is purely there to warm up the pre-cat(s). There's no way I'd put 3000rpm on a stone cold engine right at start up (yay, no oil pressure...), and I wouldn't be in the slightest bit worried if the ASW stoppped working. I would've removed it long ago anyway.

87_rocket

Well either way, im sure mazda didnt put the AWS in for no reason, so i'd like to get it fixed...any ideas?

HAILERS

It does not work under sixty degrees F. How cold are your mornings?

On a 87 the water temp switch on the BOTTOM of the radiator HAS to be connected.

The Air Bypass Solenoid has to be connected.

The clutch and neutral switch have to be working.

The BAC has to be working/connected up.

And my favorite point having to do with the Air Bypass Solenoid (AWS on S5): The Air Bypass Solenoid, upon going to START with the key , opens wide open (just like the BAC does) untill the key is released from Start to ON. In other words it is part and parcel of the starting on the engine. Adds air upon starting. Think MIXTURE. Think "Ah wonda why muh enjun don star guud".

EDIT: During cold start (under 60 degrees F), the BAC and Air Bypass Solenoid stay open fully for approx 17 seconds, unlike on the normal warm start where they stay wide open only as long as the key is held to Start.

NZConvertible

A mentioned twice already, it's to get the pre-cats up to their light-off temp quicker. It was for emissions purposes only, and unless you're required to do an emission test that begins with a cold start, you just don't need it. All it's doing is increasing engine wear. There are many features on these cars worth keeping but this is not one of them.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

You just proved my point, key word is firing normally. There isn't enough heat within the combustion chamber to properly burn away all the excess fuel that gets dumped in during a cold start-up, however it's true that the fuel will eventually burn. The thing people don't realize is that the rotors themselves get physically wet with fuel during start-up. The stock ecu will dump in extra fuel when the engine is cold. Not all the fuel gets burned at start-up. If you truly know anything about rotaries, then you know how thermally inefficient they are when it comes to "FULLY" burning the fuel air mixture(especially at low rpms). This unburned fuel stays on the rotors allowing for more carbon deposits to form. That's why engines that are granny driven are carbon infested. Ask me how I now because I actually lost an engine due to too much carbon build-up from running the engine at too low of an rpm.

Whether you agree or not, I still stand but my original post that AWS does have another benefit. When the engine jumps to 3k for that 20-30 secs, the super rich start-up fuel air mixture will burn away more quickly and efficiently. That is a fact. I've also pulled the plugs of a freshy started engine and they were still wet with fuel.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

This quote right here proves that you don't know what your talking about. I get 90psi oil pressure immediately at start-up. The protection is there. Just because you think that it's useless doesn't mean that it really is. Also 3,000 rpm's is nothing for a cold rotary. The stationary gears support the majority of the rotors weight. Because of this the bearings don't see no where near the forces as a bearing in a piston engine does. Lastly the rotor bearing themselves are only seeing 1,000 rpms at 3,000.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

I guarantee you will lose an engine due to coolant seal failer or broken apex seals well before you lose and engine from any measurable wear from AWS.

Tournapart

iTrader: (4)

^^^^making lots of friends

NZConvertible

Eventually being a matter of seconds, not minutes or hours.

And a lot of that goes straight out the exhaust. Ever stuck your face next to the exhaust of a cat-less rotary during a cold start?

I use a clever trick to perform the same task. I drive the car. I don't sit and wait half a minute.

Unless you have one of those magical engines that creates oil pressure instantly, normal engines take a second or two for pressure to form. There will always be a distinct lag between a quickly revved engine and the resulting oil pressure, particularly with stone cold oil. You can hardly claim that this is a good thing.

Just because you think that it's uselful doesn't mean that it really is. See how silly that argument is?

Who said anything about losing an engine? My statement stands; engine wear is unnecessarily increased. Do you think engine wear has no effect on an engine's performance over time?

If you want to beat needlessly on your cold engine go ahead. Some of us have a little more mechanical sympathy.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

I few seconds isn't long enough to get the combustion chamber up to temp so the fuel air mixture can be burned more fully. Spark along isn't going to get the job done. Though AWS pre-heats the cat, it also allows the combustion chamber to also reach temp much faster. This is a fact that can't be denied. The faster you reach temp the more fuel you will burn and therefore the less carbon deposits will be left behind.


As the same you can't faulty claim it's a bad thing either. Mazda has used the feature for how long? Even though it's designed to pre-heat the cats, if it was a serious risk to the engine Mazda would have eliminated the feature years ago. The Rx8 uses it. The 90 psi that I get is in really cold weather and it gets to that psi well before 3k (obviously because the really cold oil is thicker). In warmer weather the pressure gradually rises but there is more than enough oil pressure to lube the engine at a measly 3k. Actually depending on how cold it is AWS wont even activate. This morning the engine only revved to 2k during start-up.


I was just giving an example. Yes I feel engine wear has an effect over time however, I feel the AWS feature isn't going to cause enough noticeable wear to the rotary engine. Do you know of anyione that has lost an engine because of excessive wear from using AWS. The facts are still that you will probably loose the engine due to some other means well before the engine actually wears down from regular use of the AWS.


I've got over 100,000 miles on my original engine in my Fd and I still have excellent compression. My car will still trap 100mph in the 1/4 mile. Unlike 95% of the people on this forum that have had to rebuild at 60k. Odviously I have some mechanical sympathy.

87_rocket

Ok, the only person who has been helpful so far is HAILERS. Thank you HAILERS for actually attempting to solve my problem rather than ranting on the pros and cons of AWS. I need a ******* solution, not some dumb debate club. HAILERS, how do you suggest to get the AWS to work during a cold morning (under 60 F)?

NZConvertible

Mazda does what it has to do to pass emissions. I don't. It's as simple as that.

What you need is some manners kid. If you want to be helped in the future you don't **** off the people who know a lot more about your car than you do. Have you checked the things Hailers has already mentioned? If not why are you still asking for help?

Icemark

But you are missing that unless you have shimmed or replaced the E-shaft thermovalve the oil only flows to about half the engine, most notibly there is no flow to the rotors until the engine oil (not the engine itself) is up to operating temp.

This is simply to help speed the warming of the engine for emmissions only. So you may have 90 PSI when starting cold (which I doubt anyway- but its what you said), but you don't have full flow.

but back to the original question.

Are you sure that 87_rocket you are starting the car not in gear- with the shifter in the neutral position, not in gear with the clutch in??? Starting in gear with the clutch in will bypass the AWS.

NZConvertible

No, there is still plenty of oil at the rotors when the oil's cold. The thermovalve only reduces oil flow, it does not cut it entirely. There's still more than enough lubrication for an engine being driven gently while warming up (like it's supposed to be).